Alcor, Church of Transhumanism Cryonics, Ventureville, cryo-marriages
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: May 17, 2009 12:09AM
and of course, they are constantly talking about ways to "change the image" of cryonics to make it sell better to the public.
Changing the Image of Cryonics How to get cryonics into the mainstream. [www.imminst.org]
Why aren't they worrying about learning the FACTS about cryonics first?
Those who sell cryonics, try to pander to the "Immortalist" SciFi-religious feelings of people.
In fact, what needs to be done is the precise opposite, and instead look at "cryonics" analytically and technically. Not just the "medical" parts of it, (which in fact are occuring after DEATH, so its not medical, its post-mortem).
But most importantly, what needs to be analyzed are the financial aspects of the companies the contracts people are signing. Notice how they always IGNORE that part of it, the most important part? There should be entire websites explaining that in details, which would take hundreds of pages.
The precise opposite needs to happen, they need LESS "religious SciFi feelings" about being "immortal" and more fact-based research into what is really going on.
Sure, some of the people posting that stuff are wide-eyed Transhumanist idealists who want to see the future.
But some are marketing sales-plants too.
They are trying to systematically shape the publics perceptions about cryonics to increase sales.
And they are using deception to do so.
What is needed is LESS wide-eyed SciFi religious emotional zeal, and more factual and technical analysis.
Who else is selling SciFi religious emotionality, and using deceptive methods?
Scientology does, so do the Raelians. That's the direction its heading.
Why are they always talking about "cryonicists" living together in one area, like Ventureville?
And cryonics marriages carried out by ordained cryonicist Venturist Ministers, who also work at Alcor for a living?
QUOTE:
__________________
Michael Perry
Patient Caretaker
....was hired by Alcor in 1989 following two years of volunteer work at the Foundation. Dr. Perry monitors Alcor’s dewars, provides facility surveillance during off-work hours, and performs writing tasks and computer programming. He has authored or contributed to the automated cooldown and perfusion modeling programs and has maintained the patient log books for many years. He is a regular contributor to Alcor newsletters. He has been a member of Alcor since 1984.
Dr. Perry is a Director and an ordained minister of the Society for Venturism and performs wedding ceremonies and memorial services for this IRS-recognized, scientific and religious organization. He is also a cofounder and past president of the Society for Universal Immortalism...
_______________________________________
Its possible some folks involved in it might not see where its heading, and just be True Believers.
But those running the show know exactly what they are trying to do to people's psychology and emotions and belief systems.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2009 12:21AM by The Anticult.
Changing the Image of Cryonics How to get cryonics into the mainstream. [www.imminst.org]
Why aren't they worrying about learning the FACTS about cryonics first?
Those who sell cryonics, try to pander to the "Immortalist" SciFi-religious feelings of people.
In fact, what needs to be done is the precise opposite, and instead look at "cryonics" analytically and technically. Not just the "medical" parts of it, (which in fact are occuring after DEATH, so its not medical, its post-mortem).
But most importantly, what needs to be analyzed are the financial aspects of the companies the contracts people are signing. Notice how they always IGNORE that part of it, the most important part? There should be entire websites explaining that in details, which would take hundreds of pages.
The precise opposite needs to happen, they need LESS "religious SciFi feelings" about being "immortal" and more fact-based research into what is really going on.
Sure, some of the people posting that stuff are wide-eyed Transhumanist idealists who want to see the future.
But some are marketing sales-plants too.
They are trying to systematically shape the publics perceptions about cryonics to increase sales.
And they are using deception to do so.
What is needed is LESS wide-eyed SciFi religious emotional zeal, and more factual and technical analysis.
Who else is selling SciFi religious emotionality, and using deceptive methods?
Scientology does, so do the Raelians. That's the direction its heading.
Why are they always talking about "cryonicists" living together in one area, like Ventureville?
And cryonics marriages carried out by ordained cryonicist Venturist Ministers, who also work at Alcor for a living?
QUOTE:
__________________
Michael Perry
Patient Caretaker
....was hired by Alcor in 1989 following two years of volunteer work at the Foundation. Dr. Perry monitors Alcor’s dewars, provides facility surveillance during off-work hours, and performs writing tasks and computer programming. He has authored or contributed to the automated cooldown and perfusion modeling programs and has maintained the patient log books for many years. He is a regular contributor to Alcor newsletters. He has been a member of Alcor since 1984.
Dr. Perry is a Director and an ordained minister of the Society for Venturism and performs wedding ceremonies and memorial services for this IRS-recognized, scientific and religious organization. He is also a cofounder and past president of the Society for Universal Immortalism...
_______________________________________
Its possible some folks involved in it might not see where its heading, and just be True Believers.
But those running the show know exactly what they are trying to do to people's psychology and emotions and belief systems.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2009 12:21AM by The Anticult.
Alcor, Mike Perrym, High Priest Technocrat of Cryonics
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: May 17, 2009 12:31AM
also, in Mike Perry there is a computer expert....nudge nudge, wink wink.
also, he "maintains the log books" on the cryo-containers and is a "caretaker".
QUOTE: "Perry monitors Alcor’s dewars, provides facility surveillance during off-work hours"
Who is watching the watcher after-hours?
Mike Perry is an "ordained mininster" who does cryonics weddings and funerals.
"Dr. Perry is a Director and an ordained minister of the Society for Venturism and performs wedding ceremonies and memorial services"
Mike Perry is the High Priest Technocrat of Cryonics, literally.
also, he "maintains the log books" on the cryo-containers and is a "caretaker".
QUOTE: "Perry monitors Alcor’s dewars, provides facility surveillance during off-work hours"
Who is watching the watcher after-hours?
Mike Perry is an "ordained mininster" who does cryonics weddings and funerals.
"Dr. Perry is a Director and an ordained minister of the Society for Venturism and performs wedding ceremonies and memorial services"
Mike Perry is the High Priest Technocrat of Cryonics, literally.
Alcor, cryonics whistleblowers/insiders start to speak out, Wikileaks
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: May 17, 2009 02:03AM
Its time for any other cryonics whistleblowers and current/former cryonics insiders to speak out.
They could post information in this thread, if it is relevant.
Or post at Melody Maxim's blog, or elsewhere.
They could post documents at Wikileaks.org
There are people on the inside who know where the skeletons are, and where the bodies are buried, so to speak.
Also, its interesting about the book that began this thread, the entry has disappeared from Amazon.com
SHIVER: A Whistleblower's Chilling Expose of Cryonics and the Truth Behind What Happened to Ted Williams by Larry Johnson.
There have been some comments about 21st Century Book Burning, and other possible problems. [www.network54.com]
[en.wikipedia.org]
Which people in cryonics don't want to see this book made available to the public?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2009 02:05AM by The Anticult.
They could post information in this thread, if it is relevant.
Or post at Melody Maxim's blog, or elsewhere.
They could post documents at Wikileaks.org
There are people on the inside who know where the skeletons are, and where the bodies are buried, so to speak.
Also, its interesting about the book that began this thread, the entry has disappeared from Amazon.com
SHIVER: A Whistleblower's Chilling Expose of Cryonics and the Truth Behind What Happened to Ted Williams by Larry Johnson.
There have been some comments about 21st Century Book Burning, and other possible problems. [www.network54.com]
[en.wikipedia.org]
Which people in cryonics don't want to see this book made available to the public?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2009 02:05AM by The Anticult.
Cult-cryonics vs. Valid component of cryonics.
Posted by:
PhilOssifur
()
Date: May 17, 2009 02:33AM
Anticult-- Just for perspective, you need to be aware that the science fiction feelings are based on hard evidence that some organic tissue can indeed be cryopreserved and then made to function again. The principle has been demonstrated in bull semen for years for example. The idea behind cryonics is that our memory, personality and mind is embedded somehow is perservable and reanimatable brain structure. The cryonics option is based on "freeze, wait, reanimate" because despite our not knowing if we have "captured" the mind or cognitive data with cryonics, we're hoping we are-- and only future tech will confirm or deny our thesis.
The way in which cryonicists feel that they have to present cryonics and "defend" it from "me", for example, is in no way related-- theoreticall-- to the valid component of cryonics. Cryobiology studies provide a fair basis for the first look at cryonics.
[www.google.com]
Cryonics merely extends cryobiology to the human brain and human cognitive function. As an anti-cult leader, it would be useful for you to confine your critique of cryonics to the cult-like conduct of cryonicists, but to keep the validity or questions about validity of the thesis itself in a separate category. I'd like to see cryonics "cleaned up" of its cult component-- but it doesn't do me any good to witness an anti-cult forum attack the THESIS of cryonics-- which is pure and unadulterated in its composition as a thesis. In any case, I would hope you would make it clear which aspect of cryonics you're pointing at as invalid, carefully. The science of ultra low temperature biology-- might actually have some functional demonstrable experiment awaiting us-- say the preservation of some frontal cortex neurons of a newly legally deceased individual that could theoretically be transplanted with fresh neuronal stem cells into a new individual with some positivie effect. Like any tech, abuse can occur-- however with the idea of human dignity foremost in our minds, we might make some positive advance.
FD has seen me here and is claiming that I "associate myself with you"-- and Cold Filter has not approved my counter post in that regard...
[www.network54.com]
I represent a UNIQUE persepctive in cryonics-- so unique that cryonics groups have banned me across the board. When you attack the cryonics thesis itself, it makes more trouble for me. I'm being suppressed beyond belief. And now I'm being painted as associating with you... and you're obviously anti-cryonics-thesis as well as anti-cult-cryonics-- so it's just snowballing as one big mess. This will be my last post here-- because I can't afford to have this type of mischaracterization and off-point posting and association go on anymore.
It's kind of interesting, from my perspective, to stand on a point where not a single Earth bound human being shares my valid persepctive. Mark Plus used to talk about the positive aspects of being a well-differentiated person. I guess I am that... but it creates unique problems too, not the least of which is attacks by Mark Plus-- who said earlier he ADMIRED self-differentiation!!
To other readers-- I am not associating with Rick Ross and the cult forum-- I merely have found an audience for documenting the attacks on me by Cold Filter posters and CADC/SDC... which documents actually make it to google blogsearch under keyword cryonics no less!!! - but I have made my point sufficiently now-- hopefully this post will be approved and I would now take permanent leave-- since I'm not in favor of attacking the cryonics thesis itself-- which I consider to have validity. Thank you for your consideration.
It really is hard work being highly differentiated. I almost would not advise it... and would recommend that it's easier to be "part of a cult". Just kiddding. Whew.
The way in which cryonicists feel that they have to present cryonics and "defend" it from "me", for example, is in no way related-- theoreticall-- to the valid component of cryonics. Cryobiology studies provide a fair basis for the first look at cryonics.
[www.google.com]
Cryonics merely extends cryobiology to the human brain and human cognitive function. As an anti-cult leader, it would be useful for you to confine your critique of cryonics to the cult-like conduct of cryonicists, but to keep the validity or questions about validity of the thesis itself in a separate category. I'd like to see cryonics "cleaned up" of its cult component-- but it doesn't do me any good to witness an anti-cult forum attack the THESIS of cryonics-- which is pure and unadulterated in its composition as a thesis. In any case, I would hope you would make it clear which aspect of cryonics you're pointing at as invalid, carefully. The science of ultra low temperature biology-- might actually have some functional demonstrable experiment awaiting us-- say the preservation of some frontal cortex neurons of a newly legally deceased individual that could theoretically be transplanted with fresh neuronal stem cells into a new individual with some positivie effect. Like any tech, abuse can occur-- however with the idea of human dignity foremost in our minds, we might make some positive advance.
FD has seen me here and is claiming that I "associate myself with you"-- and Cold Filter has not approved my counter post in that regard...
[www.network54.com]
I represent a UNIQUE persepctive in cryonics-- so unique that cryonics groups have banned me across the board. When you attack the cryonics thesis itself, it makes more trouble for me. I'm being suppressed beyond belief. And now I'm being painted as associating with you... and you're obviously anti-cryonics-thesis as well as anti-cult-cryonics-- so it's just snowballing as one big mess. This will be my last post here-- because I can't afford to have this type of mischaracterization and off-point posting and association go on anymore.
It's kind of interesting, from my perspective, to stand on a point where not a single Earth bound human being shares my valid persepctive. Mark Plus used to talk about the positive aspects of being a well-differentiated person. I guess I am that... but it creates unique problems too, not the least of which is attacks by Mark Plus-- who said earlier he ADMIRED self-differentiation!!
To other readers-- I am not associating with Rick Ross and the cult forum-- I merely have found an audience for documenting the attacks on me by Cold Filter posters and CADC/SDC... which documents actually make it to google blogsearch under keyword cryonics no less!!! - but I have made my point sufficiently now-- hopefully this post will be approved and I would now take permanent leave-- since I'm not in favor of attacking the cryonics thesis itself-- which I consider to have validity. Thank you for your consideration.
It really is hard work being highly differentiated. I almost would not advise it... and would recommend that it's easier to be "part of a cult". Just kiddding. Whew.
WARNING: cryonics Venturist, Mark Plus, David Pizer, Power of Attorney
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: May 18, 2009 03:36AM
[www.network54.com]
[www.network54.com]
Mark Plus, doing the bidding of his boss David Pizer, is trying to take a new tact, by going back to the Church/Society for Venturism salespitch, based on FEAR and scare tactics.
And making your own family seem like your ENEMY.
Sound familiar?
Mark Plus puts in a post, about "The hostile offspring phenomenon".
Immediately followed up by "The Greedy Offspring Phenomenon", reposting David Pizer in full.
Then a post about Kurzweil, which he flips into the same subject.
What is the problem? The problem they say, is your own family is your ENEMY, and they will not carry out your wishes at death, and your GREEDY RELATIVES will try to steal all your money and bury you in the filthy groud.
Their solution?
Assign your POWER OF ATTORNEY to the Venturists! Can you believe that?
See how it works.
First they say, join cryonics with a basic insurance plan. Only $30 a month.
Then they say that is NOT enough money, and it might not pay-out, so better get MORE insurance, and pay CASH in advance.
Then they say, your nasty FAMILY will try to block your cryonics burial, and murder your chances for immortality and steal all your money.
So they say instead, give the Power Of Attorney to them, and they will take care of everything, ALL your money, your entire Estate, and everything else.
As stated before, they want your body, and the Venturists want your ENTIRE estate at death.
They will then also be able to make all the decisions for your health care, and everything else! Can you believe it? Turning your entire LIFE over to people who stand to possibly make MILLIONS off insurance and estate assets at your death? That is very disturbing.
No person should EVER assign a power of attorney to a group of strangers in something like the Church/Society of Venturism. That is one of the worst ideas mentioned on this entire forum, for any damaging group.
Notice how the Venturists are trying to make people think their own family is against them, and will not carry out their last wishes? That is a very common tactic, to drive wedges into the family.
The only person one would even assign a power of attorney to, would be your lifelong spouse or close family member you have been with your entire life. Someone who cares for you, and they will follow your wishes at death.
But the Venturists, again, want to use FEAR and even emotional terror tactics on people, to get them to turn EVERYTHING over to the Venturists. At death, many people have estates worth a few million, with the house and everything else. That's what they want. Lets get real here.
They are deliberately trying to use SCARE tactics on people, by making them think that their closest family members won't respect their last wishes at death. Which is FALSE.
Close family is proud to carry out last wishes, like if someone wants their ashes sent into space, or placed at sea, or buried beside their deceased wife, etc.
Again, more fear, more manipulation, more scare tactics from the Venturist salespeople.
Expect to see them beat this drum of power of attorney, every day, using fear tactics, to try and get people to turn their entire life over to them, where they control your health decisions when sick, and they have control over your entire estate.
Are people being persuaded and "influenced" powerfully in person, at cryonics meetings, to sign these types of documents?
There have been a lot of terrible ideas mentioned by damaging groups on this forum, and this one about giving a cryonics group power of attorney over your entire life, is one of the worst.
One hopes no one will be duped by their scare tactics.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2009 03:43AM by The Anticult.
[www.network54.com]
Mark Plus, doing the bidding of his boss David Pizer, is trying to take a new tact, by going back to the Church/Society for Venturism salespitch, based on FEAR and scare tactics.
And making your own family seem like your ENEMY.
Sound familiar?
Mark Plus puts in a post, about "The hostile offspring phenomenon".
Immediately followed up by "The Greedy Offspring Phenomenon", reposting David Pizer in full.
Then a post about Kurzweil, which he flips into the same subject.
What is the problem? The problem they say, is your own family is your ENEMY, and they will not carry out your wishes at death, and your GREEDY RELATIVES will try to steal all your money and bury you in the filthy groud.
Their solution?
Assign your POWER OF ATTORNEY to the Venturists! Can you believe that?
See how it works.
First they say, join cryonics with a basic insurance plan. Only $30 a month.
Then they say that is NOT enough money, and it might not pay-out, so better get MORE insurance, and pay CASH in advance.
Then they say, your nasty FAMILY will try to block your cryonics burial, and murder your chances for immortality and steal all your money.
So they say instead, give the Power Of Attorney to them, and they will take care of everything, ALL your money, your entire Estate, and everything else.
As stated before, they want your body, and the Venturists want your ENTIRE estate at death.
They will then also be able to make all the decisions for your health care, and everything else! Can you believe it? Turning your entire LIFE over to people who stand to possibly make MILLIONS off insurance and estate assets at your death? That is very disturbing.
No person should EVER assign a power of attorney to a group of strangers in something like the Church/Society of Venturism. That is one of the worst ideas mentioned on this entire forum, for any damaging group.
Notice how the Venturists are trying to make people think their own family is against them, and will not carry out their last wishes? That is a very common tactic, to drive wedges into the family.
The only person one would even assign a power of attorney to, would be your lifelong spouse or close family member you have been with your entire life. Someone who cares for you, and they will follow your wishes at death.
But the Venturists, again, want to use FEAR and even emotional terror tactics on people, to get them to turn EVERYTHING over to the Venturists. At death, many people have estates worth a few million, with the house and everything else. That's what they want. Lets get real here.
They are deliberately trying to use SCARE tactics on people, by making them think that their closest family members won't respect their last wishes at death. Which is FALSE.
Close family is proud to carry out last wishes, like if someone wants their ashes sent into space, or placed at sea, or buried beside their deceased wife, etc.
Again, more fear, more manipulation, more scare tactics from the Venturist salespeople.
Expect to see them beat this drum of power of attorney, every day, using fear tactics, to try and get people to turn their entire life over to them, where they control your health decisions when sick, and they have control over your entire estate.
Are people being persuaded and "influenced" powerfully in person, at cryonics meetings, to sign these types of documents?
There have been a lot of terrible ideas mentioned by damaging groups on this forum, and this one about giving a cryonics group power of attorney over your entire life, is one of the worst.
One hopes no one will be duped by their scare tactics.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2009 03:43AM by The Anticult.
Re: Cryonics, Cult Movement or Ligit Science???
Posted by:
Sparky
()
Date: May 18, 2009 05:14AM
The lure of "eternal life" is a strong one, as everyone knows. The Sci-Fi cult of cryonics preys upon that basic human fear and emotion. When I think of being a human popsicle and being thawed out in the future, all I can think of are sci-fi films and comedies like "Vanilla Sky", "Demolition Man", "Futurama" and of course the most believable of them all about the future: "Idiocracy". Sorry. Why waste hard-earned cash on a pipe dream? Until it (deep freezing a CORPSE and thawing out with no massive cell ruptures and then RE-ANIMATING the CORPSE ala "Frankenstein" or "Re-Animater" series) I will keep my money invested and earning interest for my future and also for charities that actually have a proven track record of SUCCESS...and everyone else should, too.
Cryonics is not science. It is not a scientific theory. There are NO peer reviewed articles. Until there is an actual SCIENCE involved in the RE-ANIMATION OF THE DEAD (thawed out, no less) then this is clearly a marketing company and a rip-off and should be shut down by States Attorney Generals where the tanks are and a class-action lawsuit for damages filed against these snake-oil con-artist.
Cryonics is not science. It is not a scientific theory. There are NO peer reviewed articles. Until there is an actual SCIENCE involved in the RE-ANIMATION OF THE DEAD (thawed out, no less) then this is clearly a marketing company and a rip-off and should be shut down by States Attorney Generals where the tanks are and a class-action lawsuit for damages filed against these snake-oil con-artist.
but what about me?
Posted by:
PhilOssifur
()
Date: May 18, 2009 05:23AM
I try to stop myself from commenting further in cryonics forums and now here-- but your interesting "cynics view" doesn't take "me" into account.
I love the cynical view. I think you're offering a breath of fresh air. You're articulate and you speak the ideas that others are unable or unwilling to speak. Your approach is excellent. However, WHAT IF-- and humour me for a moment-- WHAT IF the best way for a guy to get as perfectly preserved as possible was INDEED to be sure that no family member interferes and that it's a smart thing to live in a tight community where the cryonics process is understood?
I am in no way sucked into any aspect of the the "cult" component of cryonics. I was hoping you would comment on my argument pointint the merit of cryonics based on cryobiology. I understand what your point is about the POTENTIAL and the possibility for the current cryonics people operating a scam--- witness Kent and his overpaid lackyes at SA as descriebed by Maxim who I "discovered" as brilliant in 2007.
All I'm arguing for is as perfect a preservation for as long as possible after my declared death. Aside from whether cult forum readers agree that taking the chance on this makes sense or not-- what would they say is the best way for a group of people who believe in doing this-- to do it? I'm trying to make a case for corrective action in cryonics-- not the abandonment of it. The idea of establishing cryonics as a "religious belief" actually sits well with me because I do have deep emotional and connected feelings about being alive in the first place and about doing all I can to maintain my status of being alive.
I also work on the best ways to keep everyone alive-- and the current health care cuts by Obama dont' go that direction... so it's all part of the same thing. Staying alive... like the song. I've signed my life insurance over to Alcor and my would have assigned Venturists as my power of attourney by Mark Voelker nixed that. He's a board of directors member and he actually had the audacity to turn down MY membership request! That's how hated I am in the cryonics community! If you understand cryonics as cryonicits do-- which you do-- a chance for possible immortality-- then you can understand that the implications of turning a person down for membership in Venturists is tantamount to killing him in advance... you see how vicious they are.
Why do they hate me? Well, I follow Larouche pretty closely. And I've made the argument that cryonics cannot exist in a world where Larouche's policies are not put into place. I've taken a look at your own analysis of Larouche and it's mainly focused on the Dugan case which was a British setup. But that's another story.
This whole thing gets more intricate I guess as we go along and I would understand if you didn't approve this messge for posting. Anyway, I just wanted to say that there IS a "cryonics consistent with honest and human dignity, truth and a future for mankind". That's my vision. And I just want to make that point before leaving.
I love the cynical view. I think you're offering a breath of fresh air. You're articulate and you speak the ideas that others are unable or unwilling to speak. Your approach is excellent. However, WHAT IF-- and humour me for a moment-- WHAT IF the best way for a guy to get as perfectly preserved as possible was INDEED to be sure that no family member interferes and that it's a smart thing to live in a tight community where the cryonics process is understood?
I am in no way sucked into any aspect of the the "cult" component of cryonics. I was hoping you would comment on my argument pointint the merit of cryonics based on cryobiology. I understand what your point is about the POTENTIAL and the possibility for the current cryonics people operating a scam--- witness Kent and his overpaid lackyes at SA as descriebed by Maxim who I "discovered" as brilliant in 2007.
All I'm arguing for is as perfect a preservation for as long as possible after my declared death. Aside from whether cult forum readers agree that taking the chance on this makes sense or not-- what would they say is the best way for a group of people who believe in doing this-- to do it? I'm trying to make a case for corrective action in cryonics-- not the abandonment of it. The idea of establishing cryonics as a "religious belief" actually sits well with me because I do have deep emotional and connected feelings about being alive in the first place and about doing all I can to maintain my status of being alive.
I also work on the best ways to keep everyone alive-- and the current health care cuts by Obama dont' go that direction... so it's all part of the same thing. Staying alive... like the song. I've signed my life insurance over to Alcor and my would have assigned Venturists as my power of attourney by Mark Voelker nixed that. He's a board of directors member and he actually had the audacity to turn down MY membership request! That's how hated I am in the cryonics community! If you understand cryonics as cryonicits do-- which you do-- a chance for possible immortality-- then you can understand that the implications of turning a person down for membership in Venturists is tantamount to killing him in advance... you see how vicious they are.
Why do they hate me? Well, I follow Larouche pretty closely. And I've made the argument that cryonics cannot exist in a world where Larouche's policies are not put into place. I've taken a look at your own analysis of Larouche and it's mainly focused on the Dugan case which was a British setup. But that's another story.
This whole thing gets more intricate I guess as we go along and I would understand if you didn't approve this messge for posting. Anyway, I just wanted to say that there IS a "cryonics consistent with honest and human dignity, truth and a future for mankind". That's my vision. And I just want to make that point before leaving.
Re: Cryonics, Cult Movement or Ligit Science???
Posted by:
Sparky
()
Date: May 18, 2009 08:48AM
PhilOssifur,
Sorry you feel you must go. I don't think anyone on this thread thinks you are involved in the cultic nature (the vice-like grip of control from the "higher-ups") of the cryonic movement, in fact, I have felt you are a hopeful believer in cryonics and as I have pointed out, desire to live forever/cheat death or just live longer than currently medically possible is a normal and justified human emotion/thought.
You are clearly a strong proponent for the "non-cultic"(i.e. open and scientifically run) cryonic movement and your fellow pro-cryonic associates should understand that you are not against cryonics just because you posted here. I, for one, will miss your insights...I thought they added greatly to the flavour of the discussion.
Clearly, I am mister wet-blanket "show me the science" guy. I would keep an open mind once the science has been done. I would add that the science aspect is perhaps even more relavent with the thought of planetary manned exploration where a form of stasis might behoove the astronaut/cosmonauts that might go on such a intra-solar-system journey. That being said, I know DNA can be successfully frozen and kept, but still doubt success with a living/dead entity at this time.
[www.quackwatch.com]
I am sure cryonics has answers for these concerns...I'm not buying until I see the peer reviewed studies with their "double-blind, double-dummy" results.
Sorry you feel you must go. I don't think anyone on this thread thinks you are involved in the cultic nature (the vice-like grip of control from the "higher-ups") of the cryonic movement, in fact, I have felt you are a hopeful believer in cryonics and as I have pointed out, desire to live forever/cheat death or just live longer than currently medically possible is a normal and justified human emotion/thought.
You are clearly a strong proponent for the "non-cultic"(i.e. open and scientifically run) cryonic movement and your fellow pro-cryonic associates should understand that you are not against cryonics just because you posted here. I, for one, will miss your insights...I thought they added greatly to the flavour of the discussion.
Clearly, I am mister wet-blanket "show me the science" guy. I would keep an open mind once the science has been done. I would add that the science aspect is perhaps even more relavent with the thought of planetary manned exploration where a form of stasis might behoove the astronaut/cosmonauts that might go on such a intra-solar-system journey. That being said, I know DNA can be successfully frozen and kept, but still doubt success with a living/dead entity at this time.
[www.quackwatch.com]
I am sure cryonics has answers for these concerns...I'm not buying until I see the peer reviewed studies with their "double-blind, double-dummy" results.
Re: but what about me?
Posted by:
Sparky
()
Date: May 18, 2009 08:57AM
Quote
PhilOssifur
Why do they hate me? Well, I follow Larouche pretty closely. And I've made the argument that cryonics cannot exist in a world where Larouche's policies are not put into place. I've taken a look at your own analysis of Larouche and it's mainly focused on the Dugan case which was a British setup. But that's another story.
This whole thing gets more intricate I guess as we go along and I would understand if you didn't approve this messge for posting. Anyway, I just wanted to say that there IS a "cryonics consistent with honest and human dignity, truth and a future for mankind". That's my vision. And I just want to make that point before leaving.
The whole LaRouche thing is lost on me (I don't follow him. His presidential platform in the 1980 elections Carter(D) vs. Reagan(R) was, this is from memory at college (yes, I'm old), "Elect me, and I will solve all the country's problems within 30 days" I voted Reagan since that statement of his frankly scared me). I know that LaRouche can deserve an entirely separate thread since he has what has been described as a "cult following" as has current republican congressman Ron Paul. If you want to write why your following of LaRouche bothers the current Alcor leadship, I think that may need a new thread. I also think it sounds intriguing...
Re: Cryonics, Cult Movement or Ligit Science???
Posted by:
Sparky
()
Date: May 18, 2009 12:16PM
To quote the Cryonics Insitute main web page "catch phrase":
"Your Last Best Chance For Life--and Your Family's."
Cryonics clearly preys upon those with no god-head religion (christians, jews and moslems need not apply). It also cannot prey on atheistic religions such as buddhism or even rationalists with no religion but who "worship" logic and knowledge. People with no "mental rudder" are the intended victims and if you look at the number of folks that are signed up to this, it is a miniscule amount.
Perhaps the fact not many people are paying for the "hope" of cryonics is a good sign for human society, intellect-wise. the science of Cryogenic Preservation may eventually be a good thing for humanity, but the psuedo-scientific 'Amway' attitude of the current cryonic movement and it's "leadership's" cult-like iron-control and subterfuge is not.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2009 12:24PM by Sparky.
"Your Last Best Chance For Life--and Your Family's."
Cryonics clearly preys upon those with no god-head religion (christians, jews and moslems need not apply). It also cannot prey on atheistic religions such as buddhism or even rationalists with no religion but who "worship" logic and knowledge. People with no "mental rudder" are the intended victims and if you look at the number of folks that are signed up to this, it is a miniscule amount.
Perhaps the fact not many people are paying for the "hope" of cryonics is a good sign for human society, intellect-wise. the science of Cryogenic Preservation may eventually be a good thing for humanity, but the psuedo-scientific 'Amway' attitude of the current cryonic movement and it's "leadership's" cult-like iron-control and subterfuge is not.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2009 12:24PM by Sparky.
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