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Re: Desteni, Bernard Poolman, aka aliases
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: August 23, 2010 11:30AM

Need to catch up with the thread developments...but...

The "Poolman" who went bankrupt, would have to be that persons legal name.

Perhaps the other names being used, are the common aka "aliases" used constantly by Gurus of various stripes? Many many Gurus of every kind, usually have a list of revised names they use in their schemes.
They use their surnames, middle names, moms maiden name, and a few fake names they picked out of a hat or that have symbolic meaning to them.

But the real name is going to be the one used on things like bankruptcies.

But its an interesting connection. A person who has used a string of aliases, demanding his followers use their own surnames. Typical hypocrisy, and very telling.


As far as meeting Sunette, if Poolman says he met her in a cafe, then that is part of the PR-spin story they are using. Its like the old hollywood myth of "discovering" a starlet in a cafe, its used in public relations, when in fact its a fabricated Story by the PR dept to capture public attention with a Cinderella Fairytale.
Every Sect leader knows they have to concoct a Story that people will buy into. A media salespitch.
So in this case, they want to make it seem like they discovered a Portal into another dimension by chance in a cafe, when in fact the entire Desteni scheme is clearly a cooked-up moneymaking scam, and rampant Egomania by the guy in charge, who wants to run his own sect, like LRH Scientology and the others.

They are not going to make someone who is a stranger into the front-person for their sect, as that person could easily just walk away with their fanbase and followers. It may still happen.
Which is why Gurus make themselves the Guru, so no one can walk away with their followers.
What if the fake "portal" decides one day they want to own their own moneymaking portal?
Then its another fight, like with the Desteni software. (gotta get back to that one!)

Hopefully the facts and warnings about Desteni will continue to get out, so young people are not duped into getting into the Desteni sect.

If there are any former, or leaving Desteni members reading these threads, they could consider joining the thread, in a way that protects their own personal privacy, and tell the public what is really going on.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2010 11:34AM by The Anticult.

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Re: Desteni, Bernard Poolman, aka aliases
Posted by: Sandman ()
Date: August 23, 2010 07:28PM

Quote
The Anticult
But its an interesting connection. A person who has used a string of aliases, demanding his followers use their own surnames. Typical hypocrisy, and very telling.

And at the same time Poolman, who claims to be an ex-cop, refuses to show his face while demanding his followers show their faces. All very suspicious.

Quote
The Anticult
They are not going to make someone who is a stranger into the front-person for their sect, as that person could easily just walk away with their fanbase and followers. It may still happen.

Yes, Desteni has the profile it has purely because of Sunette Spies' original videos 2007-8. She could quite easily branch out on her own if she wanted, taking Poolman's followers with her. It seems she is the main reason Desteni appeals to all the young people, which is most of them in the group, because they identify with her in some way.

On this page at the Desteni forum "Process Support - Sub4Sub Optimization" -- [desteni.co.za] there are 61 YouTube channels listed that support the main Desteni channels, Desteni Productions and Bernard Poolman.

On the "Community" page at [desteni.co.za] there are 88 channels.

Each of these channels represents an individual although some persons might have more than one channel.

Considering that Poolman says having a YouTube channel is an essential part of being in the Desteni group, but that possibly there are some that don't have a YT channel, these figures indicate that there can't be more than about 100 people max involved in Desteni around the world.

The channels that are supposed to represent countries such as Germany, India, China or Sweden are either run by individual group members with their own videos or they just reproduce material from the main Desteni channel. It's not as though there are any organized satellite groups existing in these countries.

Yet Poolman has convinced these 60-100 or so followers that they are literally going to transform the economic structure of the world by making his "equal money" campaign into a major global political movement within ten years.

If after three years Desteni has roughly 100 members, at that rate in ten years they will have maybe 450-500. If we're generous and say say they can double those numbers through optimization of "Sub4Sub" on YouTube or through social networking on Facebook then about 1000.

As Poolman would say "It's real simplistic shit. 1+1=2."

He seems to think "equal money" is bound to have mass appeal, but every time Desteni members encounter people outside the group on YouTube willing to discuss "equal money" they simply don't take to it. They just point out the obvious flaws and move on. Some of them also make videos criticizing the idea.

He's going to have to do something far more radical than "equal money"-sub4sub on YouTube if he wants to start a global political movement, and avoid giving Sunette Spies an excuse to grow her wings and start out on her own.

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Re: Desteni
Date: August 24, 2010 02:27AM

Quote Sandman
"If after three years Desteni has roughly 100 members, at that rate in ten years they will have maybe 450-500. If we're generous and say say they can double those numbers through optimization of "Sub4Sub" on YouTube or through social networking on Facebook then about 1000."

Mr Sandman according to the members list on the Desteni website they have 1250 members. [desteni.co.za]

Keeping in mind that 429 of these members have never made a post, we could make the assumption that these are possibly ghost accounts. In that case there are 829 members significantly different from your figure of roughly 100. Not to mention, there may be more individuals who simply follow their work on youtube, having never signed up for the forum.

Now if we follow your mathematical formula using 829 instead of 100 we arrive at the figure of 5540 desteni members after 10 years. If indeed there are 1250 members as stated then that figure increases to 8340 Desteni Members after 10 years.

These figures are more than 5x and 8x more than your estimates, respectfully.

On top of that the Desteni Productions youtube channel has had 9,200,195 video upload views (Notable Pop culture figure Britney Spears has had 21,881,191 upload views bearing in mind she is world renowned with some of the best publicists in professional entertainment. Keeping in mind even her videos also gain views from those who wish to criticise her music.)

Incredibly, the upload video views of Desteni surpasses that of The Church of Scientology three times over and more. With Scientology's youtube channel upload views sitting at: 2,297,103.

Now lets take into consideration Scientology started in 1952.

"according to a 2001 survey published by the City University of New York , 55,000 people in the United States would, if asked to identify their religion, have stated Scientology.In 2008, the same survey team estimated that only 25,000 Americans identify as Scientologists."

If Desteni were to last around 60 years the figures would not be that different from these scientology figures we could be looking at anything from 33000 to 50000 members.

Have you never encountered the DesteniProductions youtube channel Sandman? Are the figures there not notable?

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Re: Desteni, Bernard Poolman, aka aliases, Equal Money scam
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: August 24, 2010 04:31AM

Probably one of the reasons that Poolman is so angry, is the fact that his "plan" is failing horribly...again.
He probably only does have very few followers, and only a few of them are paying actual money for their courses and programs.

He has made many errors. One of them is targeting young people, who are easier to manipulate, but as he's found out, they don't have any money to burn.
That is why "smarter" (more evil) sect leaders only target young people for unpaid labor, and target aging Boomers who have some money to burn.
Byron Katie is the classic example of this, she is making millions from the pain of aging boomers.

To the experienced eye, the Equal Money sham is simply a mechanism which hopes to get people to liberate their money, and hand it over to Desteni.

But on top of this, there is some serious craziness with the Desteni sect, with the teeth pulling, and the rest of it. Those are serious warning signs.

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Re: Desteni
Date: August 24, 2010 06:55AM

Thanks for that link Sandman. I have two posts I would like to do about my thoughts on it. Here is the first.

Quotes by Sunette Spies from the video "5 - Portal History - Making my own Way"
During the video Sunette Spies recalls her "first encounters" with Bernard Poolman and Esteni de Wet in 2004.
1.39 "Now this was in 2004, one day uhm one day Eagle and his fiance came to the coffee shop"
3.55 "Your mother is proud of you" (Sunette quotes Eagle, Bernard Poolman)
7.22 "I strained my back a couple years ago when I was about 13 years old"
_______________
Ok first of all, Sunette has stated that Esteni and Bernard were engaged in 2004, she refers to Esteni as Eagle (Bernards) Fiance. The aforementioned court notice refers to Susara Petronella De Wet being married without community of property to Frans De Wet. The notification is from 2008.

Presumably "Frans de Wet" and "Susara Petronella de Wet" are legal names. To be clear:
Susara Petronella de Wet married *without community of property with Frans de Wet, and residing at Geraniumstraat 1, Weltevredenpark, Roodepoort (February 15th, 2008)
George Bernard Leopold Poolman, unmarried, residing at Geraniumstraat 1, Weltevredenpark, Roodepoort ( April 30th, 2008 )
*community of property is a pre-nuptial agreement.

Quote Sandman
Links posted earlier in the thread on this page: [forum.culteducation.com] show that a Bernard George Leopold Poolman and a Susara Petronella de Wet went bankrupt in 2008. Esteni de Wet is Poolman's partner.
Quote Anticult
Did a certain "Bernard George Leopold Poolman" go bankrupt in 2008?

Also a "Susara Petronella de Wet" name comes up with identical details to the "Bernard George Leopold Poolman".
Also the "Susara Petronella de Wet" is listed as having an "Insolvent estate" in March 2009.

What else is out there, using various surname combinations?

----------------QUOTE------------------
[translate.google.com]

NOTICE OF SURRENDER OF DEBTOR'S ESTATE IN TERMS OF ARTICLE 4 (1) OF ACT. 24 VAN 1936, VAN 1936, AS AMENDED
APPLICATION OIUI surrender
Notice is hereby given that application will be made to the Witwatersrand Local Division of the Johannesburg High Court on Wednesday, 21st May 2008 at lOhOO or as soon thereafter as, that the application may be heard for the acceptance of the surrender of George Bernard Leopold Poolman, ID No. ID No. 6212135014085, unmarried, residing at Geraniumstraat 1, Weltevredenpark, Roodepoort, and that its affairs available for inspection will at the office of the Master of the Johannesburg High Court and Magistrates Court and Pinetown Magistrates Court, for a period of 14 (fourteen) days from Wednesday, April 30th, 2008. Datum: 23/4/08. Date: 4/23/2008
_______________________________________________________________
Quote Anticult
The "Poolman" who went bankrupt, would have to be that persons legal name.
_______________________________________________________________
Alright. Firstly, it is possible any of these individuals could have legally changed their names.

Second of all you asked the question: "Did a certain "Bernard George Leopold Poolman" go bankrupt in 2008?" Then provided a notification in which the name issued was "George Bernard Leopold Poolman"

This would imply the individual living at Geraniumstraat 1, Weltevredenpark, Roodepoort carried the legal name of "George Bernard Leopold Poolman"
______________________________________________________________________________________
So Susara Petronella was bound in Marriage to Frans de Wet in 2008. Residing in Roodepoort at that time. At the address: Geraniumstraat 1, Weltevredenpark, Roodepoort. The same address as one "George Bernard Leopold Poolman."
Considering Esteni de Wet and Bernard Poolman were meant to be engaged in 2004 and that they are still together now in 2010. It would appear (if this is indeed the same individuals) they were "engaged" while "Susara de Wet" was still married.

To speculate further the possibility this may in fact be Bernard Poolman I would consider that:
Roodepoort is an area in Johannesburg, Gauteng, South Africa

Quote Aruan999 youtube page: "I live in Germiston, Gauteng, South Africa."
________________________________________________

Donald Herman is Aruan999
Both Elizabeth Herman and Donald Herman's landline in their property selling ventures is: # 0119161074
The area code for Gauteng is "011"
Here is a map to highlight the mentioned areas: [yfrog.com]

Regarding Johannesburg: Within the FAQ section of the Desteni website, there is an interview featured with Darryl Thomas and Bernard Poolman. An interesting point is raised regarding Johannesburg.

Darryl: Where were you previously?
Bernard: I was in Johannesburg.
Darryl: Johannesburg…
Bernard: I was at the biggest police station in the country, I was stationed there.

Quote
TheAnticult
Perhaps the other names being used, are the common aka "aliases" used constantly by Gurus of various stripes? Many many Gurus of every kind, usually have a list of revised names they use in their schemes.
Lastly regarding this matter if "Susara de Wet" is "Esteni de Wet" I am still curious as to why "Esteni de Wet" would change her first name but keep her legal marital surname during the Desteni venture. Especially if involved in the aforementioned legal issues and if she is involved with a new partner namely Bernard Poolman. Did Esteni and Bernard ever get married? Were they really engaged?

___________________________________________
Is it truly all about the money? Or about shaping(warping) peoples perceptions?

Scientology youtube channel upload views: 2,297,103
Desteniproductions youtube channel upload views: 9,200,195

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Re: Desteni
Posted by: Stoic ()
Date: August 24, 2010 03:16PM

'Is it truly all about the money? Or about shaping(warping) peoples perceptions?'

Its about both. The warping of peoples perceptions--essentially causing as much confusion as possible in the mind of the follower--is a necessary precursor to gaining control of the followers mind in order to more easily relieve them of their autonomy and eventually their money.

Pooleman can exert no control over his followers until he has them loyal and dependant on him to tell them what is reality. To do that he first has to scramble their original view of reality by throughly confusing them.
There really isn't a lot of point in looking for logic in the various realities he is trying to peddle--there is none and that is the point.


With regard to the figures of video views, I would be cautious about assuming that all those viewers are seriously considering Desteni as a group to follow.
Direct marketing--which is the closest analogy that I can make to this form of recruitment-- expects to trawl through thousands of propects before making a sale (gaining an interested follower in this case)
At least half of those original sales do not stick--demand a refund, change their minds about participating.
Direct marketers that keep a customer coming back for repeat sales--the object of the game-- are rare indeed.

I remember seeing these types of numbers collated somewhere for Syddha Yoga, they expected to contact thousands of marginally interested prospects to gain one paying customer, the core members of die-hard followers always remained quite small.

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Re: Desteni
Posted by: Sandman ()
Date: August 24, 2010 06:39PM

Quote
Nasrudin's Donkey
Mr Sandman according to the members list on the Desteni website they have 1250 members. [desteni.co.za]

Keeping in mind that 429 of these members have never made a post, we could make the assumption that these are possibly ghost accounts. In that case there are 829 members significantly different from your figure of roughly 100. Not to mention, there may be more individuals who simply follow their work on youtube, having never signed up for the forum.

Nasrudin's Donkey: anyone can join the Desteni forum. Those who have or who follow their work on YouTube do not even necessarily support Desteni.

Members of their forum are not active in terms of doing what is recommended by Poolman and the group. That is, operating a YouTube channel and doing vlogging, things he strongly emphasizes as requirements for being a member of his group.

That is why the Desteni YouTube accounts should be considered the best indicator of the number of active members. Desteni are now opening a subscription-based forum, so that may be another indicator, assuming the figures are made public.

DesteniProductions has over 1,500 videos on its channel. The group's main area of public activity is the web -- YouTube and Facebook, its own website and some other video sites. That channel uses a huge variety of tags on its uploads, many of which are misleading. There is a vast range of commonly-searched famous names in the titles of the videos. The group employs "sub4sub", which ups the viewing count artificially.

Desteni have YouTube as their main field of operation. They put a lot of time and effort into their channel, uploading new content every day, and have numerous satellite channels.

They have one farm and no books published. There is no evidence that they even hold public meetings.

Quote
Nasrudin's Donkey
Have you never encountered the DesteniProductions youtube channel Sandman? Are the figures there not notable?

I wouldn't have been posting in this thread for the past two years if I hadn't encountered the DesteniProductions YouTube channel. And no, I don't regard the viewing figures as particularly notable for the reasons given above.

To be considered by Poolman and cohorts as a serious participant in the Desteni process a member is expected to display images of themselves on the web with a shaved head.

If what you've proposed is accurate, Nasrudin's Donkey, then the Desteni FaceWorldFaceOff project would be taking off, with hundreds of members displaying photos of themselves without any hair. At [www.faceworldfaceoff.com] images of the same few faces are repeated.

The numbers of people signed up to 'Structural Resonance Alignment Training' would be a significant figure but its not available.

Quote
Stoic
With regard to the figures of video views, I would be cautious about assuming that all those viewers are seriously considering Desteni as a group to follow.
Direct marketing--which is the closest analogy that I can make to this form of recruitment-- expects to trawl through thousands of propects before making a sale (gaining an interested follower in this case)
At least half of those original sales do not stick--demand a refund, change their minds about participating.
Direct marketers that keep a customer coming back for repeat sales--the object of the game-- are rare indeed.

Exactly.

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Re: Desteni
Date: August 27, 2010 03:42AM

Quote
Sandman
If what you've proposed is accurate, Nasrudin's Donkey, then the Desteni FaceWorldFaceOff project would be taking off, with hundreds of members displaying photos of themselves without any hair. At [www.faceworldfaceoff.com] images of the same few faces are repeated.
Sandman, although I certainly see your point. I would like to point out that Ann1986 took over two years to eventually shave her hair off. Despite being one of the most active members of Desteni from the beginning and being under quite a bit of pressure from others to do so. It may be the case that for women, the decision is all the more difficult to make despite their agreement with many other aspects of Desteni. As well as this, if Cresil was truly the individual featured in their original youtube photograph, they appear to have reasonably long hair and yet claim they were willing to pay for the SRA.

Quote
Stoic
Its about both. The warping of peoples perceptions--essentially causing as much confusion as possible in the mind of the follower--is a necessary precursor to gaining control of the followers mind in order to more easily relieve them of their autonomy and eventually their money.
Have all cults had the end ambition of money? I am not saying Desteni does not in any way seek money/free labour from followers, as apparent in their request for donations and the SRA prices... However I am curious as to instances there have been cults with an alternative agenda as opposed to money being seen as the main objective of their modus operandi.
With regards to Free Labour, here is a screenshot of Aruan9 referring to Desteni members as slaves: [yfrog.com]
Quote
Sandman
As for WHY a middle aged man would want to surround himself with confused teenage girls who hang on his every pronouncement... we can only speculate.

The US had a very public version of this type of thing... it was made up of lost and drug-scrambled girls, a con-man, and a lot of ego-nullifying end of the world mystical clap-trap.

Read Destini's ten point Statement of process for Heaven on Earth... and think Squeeky Fromme."


Quote
TheAnticult
As far as meeting Sunette, if Poolman says he met her in a cafe, then that is part of the PR-spin story they are using. Its like the old hollywood myth of "discovering" a starlet in a cafe, its used in public relations, when in fact its a fabricated Story by the PR dept to capture public attention with a Cinderella Fairytale.
That's interesting and I would agree that the story is a PR-spin. However this brings me to something else I wanted to mention with regards to the video Sandman provided: [www.youtube.com]

Quotes by Sunette Spies from the video "5 - Portal History - Making my own Way"
During the video Sunette Spies recalls her "first encounters" with Bernard Poolman and Esteni de Wet in 2004.
1.39 "Now this was in 2004, one day uhm one day Eagle and his fiance came to the coffee shop"
3.55 "Your mother is proud of you" (Sunette quotes Eagle, Bernard Poolman)
7.22 "I strained my back a couple years ago when I was about 13 years old"

At 7.22 minutes into the video Sunette says something which strikes me as odd. She recalls the meeting with "Eagle" and "Esteni" in 2004 and remarks about her back, which she strained "a couple of years before" then states that she was 13 years old at the time that happened. Now why would she say that? I am taking into account that the majority of what she says may indeed be scripted in this video or a rehearsed story with elements of ad lib. However why would she remark that a couple of years before her in encounter in 2004 that she was 13. That would make her around 15/16 years old at the "time of meeting."

Going by the assumption she may of been 15/16 in 2004, in 2007 when Sunette first took her on youtube as "The Portal" she would of been 18/19 years old.
___________________________________________________
Quote
Sandman
STEP ONE: find a lost and impressionable soul, maybe in search of a father figure, and dislocate that person from their previous identity, in such a way that it's impossible to go back
Quote
Sandman
He's going to have to do something far more radical than "equal money"-sub4sub on YouTube if he wants to start a global political movement, and avoid giving Sunette Spies an excuse to grow her wings and start out on her own.
What is the likelihood that Sunette will leave Desteni if she has become psychologically dependant on Bernard Poolman, found a new identity as one of the inner circle and has no opportunity to reevaluate the situation outside of the Desteni influence? As far as I am aware she lives within the farm (I may be wrong on that though)... Which would mean she will be subject to constant reinforcement of Desteni's ideas: Whether of the exoteric or esoteric nature. As you have stated Sandman, she has possibly been dislocated from her previous identity, in such a way that it's impossible to go back. Does this not imply the ways of Desteni and Bernard Poolman are all she now knows of how to live? I am not convinced the situation is as straight forward as Sunette simply abandoning ship.
In considering the content of some channeling's Sunette has participated in, I would ask people to consider what trauma would be induced to her psychologically... If she were ever to break the Poolman spell as it were and recollect what she has participated in. Not only that but also what kind of trauma had she already under gone in order to enable her to participate in such situations?

On Sunette Spies myspace, she has her age set as 25. With a photograph which is remarkably similar to the one Cresil opted to use within various "joke"(?) pages on the internet from 2008 onwards. (Despite the fact Cresil claims involvement with Desteni only from 2009 onwards.)

Sunettes Myspace:[www.myspace.com]
That would match with the first post on this thread asserting in 2008:

Quote
Sandman
It's run by a 22 year old but there may be some other individuals behind it.

However if the cafe story is concocted, is it possible Sunette is actually younger than she has been told to present herself? Was she told to say she was 13 a couple of years before 2004? Of course she could genuinely be 25 , I just found her mention of being 13 as indicated above a little strange. If Bernard just so happened to meet Sunette at 15/16, she would be all the more vulnerable. However I am still curious as to who exactly is Christine Spies is, if not another concocted name.

Thanks.

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Re: Desteni, when will Sunnette leave and start her own sect?
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: August 27, 2010 04:07AM

Of course each person sees these things somewhat differently.
But to someone who has watched countless numbers of these types of sects, the bad amateur "performance" of Sunette/Desteni on those videos is unwatchable, as its so poorly done. As stated by others, on some early ones she was obviously (badly) reading cue cards.
And the "acting" is something you would see in a grade 8 class assignment.

But unfortunately, some who are new to this type of game, don't see it as easily, and are seduced by the presentation.

If anyone can think of a "cult" that does not have WEALTH for its leaders as one of its prime motives, then list it. The only ones that might fit that, are fanatical sects that renounce wealth. But in almost every case, the followers renounce their wealth, and the Guru lives in splendor, even if they have to hide it. Oone could list hundreds of examples.

But Poolman has copied other sects, including Rajneesh/Osho, and many others.
The Equal Money sham, is simply a device to liberate money from people by taking Desteni courses, like Scientology.


Not a believer in "psychics" but here is a psychic prediction.
In a fairly short matter of time, Poolman will have the same angry ugly falling-out with Sunnette/Desteni, that he has had with all of his former business partners, like his brother, and the rest of them.
Just wait until he claims the "technology" and intellectual property of Desteni has his personal property, if anyone else tries to use it.

There are online reports of how Sunette/Desteni does the one-on-one Desteni hocus-pocus 'muscle communication' Applied Kinesiology scam with people, [forum.culteducation.com]
If she gets popular she can start charging serious money for those sessions. Who gets that money?
There will be a huge fight between the insiders, IF any serious money starts coming in.
Of course, Poolman can dominate most people with his tactics, but not everyone, and not forever.

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Re: Desteni
Posted by: Sandman ()
Date: August 27, 2010 04:40AM

Quote
ForeverNoMatterWhat
Sandman, although I certainly see your point. I would like to point out that Ann1986 took over two years to eventually shave her hair off. Despite being one of the most active members of Desteni from the beginning and being under quite a bit of pressure from others to do so. It may be the case that for women, the decision is all the more difficult to make despite their agreement with many other aspects of Desteni. As well as this, if Cresil was truly the individual featured in their original youtube photograph, they appear to have reasonably long hair and yet claim they were willing to pay for the SRA.

No-one in the group could have taken two years to eventually shave their head. Poolman did not make having a shaved head a prerequisite for membership in the Desteni group until the end of 2009. This was discussed earlier in this thread. The interview they did with Rapport magazine was in the latter half of 2009 and shows a photo of the group without shaved heads.

Quote
ForeverNoMatterWhat
Quote
Sandman
As for WHY a middle aged man would want to surround himself with confused teenage girls who hang on his every pronouncement... we can only speculate.

The US had a very public version of this type of thing... it was made up of lost and drug-scrambled girls, a con-man, and a lot of ego-nullifying end of the world mystical clap-trap.

Read Destini's ten point Statement of process for Heaven on Earth... and think Squeeky Fromme."

I did not write that, but I don't exactly disagree with it.

Quote
ForeverNoMatterWhat
Quote
Sandman
STEP ONE: find a lost and impressionable soul, maybe in search of a father figure, and dislocate that person from their previous identity, in such a way that it's impossible to go back

Quote
ForeverNoMatterWhat
As you have stated Sandman, she has possibly been dislocated from her previous identity, in such a way that it's impossible to go back. Does this not imply the ways of Desteni and Bernard Poolman are all she now knows of how to live?

It does imply that, although again, I quoted that statement, it is not mine but by someone else from another forum.

And, no, though there is the chance that she could be a few years younger than she is presented, I don't think it is outside the realms of possibility that Sunette Spies could take off and start her own group away from Poolman, but all that is so much speculation.

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