And here on another forum is a very concerned (rightly so) parent.

[www.fulfilledprophecy.com]

Sandman, why does Desteni have to "fall apart" on their message of an "equal money system"? They could in fact keep this core message intact for 100 years w/o ever going "Destonian".

By their works you will know them. I haven't seen anything particularly bad about DesTeni...they aren't abusing anyone with their message...yet. I don't see it for profit or power either. Does Poolman really enjoy the helm-power? I don't see it. Bernard states over-and-over again...he's getting old and can't do all himself...that others must carry on the torch that is started in the name of equality.

Bernard has been in this "sesarching mode" for 20 years...and DesTeni is only about 3 to 3.5 years old. I could interpolate-derive that he doen't think DesTeni is going very far too fast. From what I gather he's logical enough to know DesTeni is small potatoes movement that will only have his defunct name attached for decades and decades.

Part of me would like to see DesTeni fold-inward and go Destonian but I don't see that happening. There isn't a firm agenda to move Desteni forward (not even the power of 10 income plan being poorly written by a 10th grader or the SRAT won't hold membership together) and everything relies on a small movement of internet followers working indepentently. Once they figure this out....that there isn't a higher agenda...things will fall apart. I was wrong about Desteni before there won't be exponential growth. It'll probably go flat-line in 2 to 4 years from now...and then, I wonder what and how the Desteni followers-members will feel....knowing and sensing the end of growth. Do you really think they'll go against their own equality statement and gather up their remaining followers to go Destonian Land? I don't think so...it's too loose an organization complete with disorganization and full of mickey mouseness.

Love and peace...hippie free-spirit drug enlightenment generation of 1965 to 74...they too sucumbbed to "having to grow up and earn a living" and there-in ended their little group. Much will be the same of Desteni they will get sidetracked working in the world, especially bearing children, raising children...nobody would really want to go Destonian to a little farm in Durban, S.Africa...Bernard probably wouldn't want their entire families either. I can't see any purpose in going Destonian it just can't happen. It'll just die out and fold inward implosion much like the hippie generation. Age of realization just hasn't hit Desteni folks...yet. I like DesTeni...but truly speaking, there isn't any gameplan. There's nothing to do. It's boring...boring. great message (w/exception to no real love feelings) but there's no stong cult tie behind it.....it's all independent stuff you work at from home alone with. Yes, they probably make some small potatoes with power of 10 income and SRAT...but that's not anything major. Desteni will die out on it's own...Destonian land will never happen...just a fantasy dream. As like Rock stars burn out before the concert start.

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It's boring...boring. great message (w/exception to no real love feelings)

You've contradicted yourself and written verbal mush.

Poolman's version of kibbutzim sounds a lot closer to the soviet collective farms that failed so spectacularly.

Imagine if he did manage to establish them across the world--think of the bureaucracy required to establish and maintain such a system. The top-heavy bureaucracy was the the flaw in the soviet plan as it is the flaw in the North Korean plan. Increasingly greater amounts of state interference and personnel required to keep the plan on the road until the enforcers outnumber the increasingly demoralised workers.

Even with all that centralised planning the system couldn't deliver food essentials to the population--it was always either feast or famine, or a better description would be glut or famine.
Feast times meant that only one food substance, whatever it was, was available in plenty at any one time. Three weeks on tinned tuna for breakfast lunch and dinner does not endear one to the collective model of production, although famine (no tuna or anything else for that matter) is considerably worse.

In such conditions the entire population turns lawbreaker and moves to a black market economy.

Listening to Poolman ranting in his videos, I am struck by how obssessed he is with money, not with equality, but with money as a form of control and therefore power.

His narrative of his meeting with Anu (which has to be interpreted as a projection of some aspect of himself) centres around how to get money and power, now that he has seen through the newage promise of prosperity thinking, i.e. thoughts of abundance do not in fact produce abundance (except for the conman at the top of the pyramid)

He claims that he got access to the dimensions (ability to talk to entities like Anu) through 'self-forgiveness'

Is there any clear exposition in Desteni-world of exactly what form 'self-forgiveness' takes, as it certainly doesn't correspond to any standard definition of forgiveness or self-acceptance if it produces demonic-type entities like Anu.

Is Poolman's demonising of the followers natural wishes for relationship and self-expression a part of the 'self-forgiveness' process?

Poolman is truly abusing the followers minds by subjecting them to the kind of emotional belittling and public humiliation that he directs against Christophe and Jorn. No-one can withstand such treatment for very long and remain stable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2010 06:12AM by Stoic.

During the Soviet regime, the produce from privately farmed bits of land was essential.

And what Stoic wrote, 'in such conditions the entire population turns lawbreaker and moves to a black market economy' --

That is exactly what happened in Nazi occupied France, during World War II, and in Eastern Europe, both under Nazi occupation, and later during the various Communist regimes.

Purchasing black market merchandise was both a matter of survival and a way to defy a regime that was oppressive and could not adequately nourish or nurture its own people--who were well aware that the high ranking bosses had plump rear ends from good times at the table, could buy food at luxury grocery stores and posessed handsome dachas (private estates) in the countryside.

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Stoic
Is there any clear exposition in Desteni-world of exactly what form 'self-forgiveness' takes, as it certainly doesn't correspond to any standard definition of forgiveness or self-acceptance if it produces demonic-type entities like Anu.

Here's an e-book which describes the Desteni "tool" of "self-forgiveness" and how it's supposed to work:

Self Forgiveness e-book

The idea is that Poolman's past communications with such "beings" are what now provide the chance to make "heaven on earth" come about, as per this from What is the Introduction to Desteni (ITD) ?


"Four years ago an Interdimensional Portal opened, through which Beings from the Afterlife come to participate with full and complete access here on Earth, in the Physical.

This event has made it possible to find out what has really been going on in the Afterlife and what has actually been going on, on Earth, which was all self-investigated through utilizing the Interdimensional Portal – the answer was not expected.

A Process of Self-Purification started in Heaven, which is the same Process that has started for Humanity and all Beings of Earth."


Basically, Poolman got the already traumatized Sunette Spies to reflect back to him his own ideas and represent them to the public on YouTube via hundreds of videos of herself talking to camera. Along the way it is likely she acted as something of a sounding-board to help to develop those ideas.

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Stoic
Is Poolman's demonising of the followers natural wishes for relationship and self-expression a part of the 'self-forgiveness' process?

Poolman is truly abusing the followers minds by subjecting them to the kind of emotional belittling and public humiliation that he directs against Christophe and Jorn. No-one can withstand such treatment for very long and remain stable.

Yes, but they are also taking part in the Desteni process with the deliberate intention of ridding themselves of their thoughts, feelings and emotions. If Poolman abuses them they will excuse it as being what's "best for all" because of how they regard him:


"When Bernard became one and equal with existence, and proved this to himself
in practical living expression over many years, he was able to be in both
the dimensions and the physical plane - which is to be here absolutely where
all of existence is you here in fact- and you stand interdimensionally in
the physical.

The portal is where all of existence, including the dimensions, exists at
one point. The portal was placed inside Sunette's body and she is able to
operate in both the dimensional existence and here in the physical.

The portal placement is Bernard himself as who he is as HERE as standing as
the expression of who we really are in existence: all as one and equal in
the physical HERE. It is the harbinger of the culmination of bringing the
physical and the dimensional existence together, one and equal.

Therefore, the portal is a 'placement' as the manifested expression of who
we really are as existence one and equal as all here - as Bernard, that
self-realised HERE. The portal is a placement as himself, as who he is HERE.
HERE as who we really are. This must be self-realised by each one
individually.

Therefore, do not see the 'being Bernard' as an 'individual.' He simply
self-realised HERE as who we all really are 'on our way to self-realise as
ourselves'.

The portal-placement in and as Sunette's human physical body is that which
'brings together' heaven on earth at one point, HERE."

-- from The Portal Placement

"Yes, but they are also taking part in the Desteni process with the deliberate intention of ridding themselves of their thoughts, feelings and emotions. If Poolman abuses them they will excuse it as being what's "best for all" because of how they regard him."


Well in terms of destabilizing the self, of provoking long-term conflicts in the individuals interfering with themselves, Desteni (=Bernard Poolman) is using all typical and specific coercive persuasion or mind control techniques at full force.
I don't know if it really is a deliberate decision or intention of the victims wanting to get rid of their thoughts, feelings and emotions.
If you take the first step into the fold, which can happen for various reasons, like interest in the supposed charity, or in the intention of changing oneself,
I think you very quickly and subtly become suggestible to typical manipulation methods used in all coercive persuasion groups.

To the best of my knowledge, all thought-reform cults use almost the exact same techniques to change people by destabilizing their self, drive them into isolation and make them dependent on the group.
This process only needs one little step, one little weak spot of the individual in the beginning, but as soon as the invdividual steps in, there is almost no way back.
It is difficult to resist warm reception when feeling lost or in need of a sense of belonging.
It is difficult to resist peer pressure when being vulnerable, slightly depressed, or lonely.
Obviously, cults target friendly, obedient, altruistic, malleable persons, they are easy to persuade and manage.

The recruiter appears nonthreatening, shows empathy, puts into play the idea that the recruiter and recruit are alike, in sync.
Because of this, the potential recruit feels he/she is resonating with a nice person who is showing great personal care and interest.
Soon, like also done at Desteni, typically recruits are invited to a special event, or to some seminars, courses to some nice, even beautiful, distant place (the Desteni farm in Kwazulu Natal, SA), where the recruit will be further cut off from their normal lives and society, therefore become more suggestible to manipulation and isolation.

Already stepped in in the environment of the group, already being persuaded to belong in something important, something bigger than themselves, new members will follow further directives given to them step by step, very subtly, so they don't notice what's happening to them at all.

In the typical phase of confession in those cults, and Desteni sets a great example of very typical mind control techniques, all very nicely publicly documented all over youtube etc.,
members are lead to reveal past and present behaviour, contacts with others, undesirable feelings, in order to unburden themselves and become free.

In reality, whatever you reveal is used to further mold you and make you feel close to the fold and estranged from nonmembers.

When you are at this stage, I think you are already processing towards identitiy crisis by trying to rid feelings, emotions, thoughts.

Speaking about identitiy crisis, unluckily, coercive persuasion, malicious manipulation done in cults like Desteni leads to intense psychological stress and many cases to
psychological casualties.


As a frightening and upsetting example of what Desteni does to one of its typically shaven (female) members, in this case 'LLCraver', you can witness absolute and total commitment to the "process",
to the principle, total trained aversion against all things outside Desteni.
LLCraver, once more, rejects informations, signals, subsequently even an old friend who told her she's afraid of her becoming crazy.


She's reacting to her friend's warning at 04:00

LLCraver reacting to a warning the Desteni way


As I am following her "process" for quite some time, I really hope she won't end traumatized and in psychotherapy in the future, she seems totally way off.
She began to go to college again to finish her degree (possibly pressured by her parents), after a long stay at the Desteni farm in South Africa, and you will see, I am
predicting she won't be able finish college, in the state she's in.

She went possessed by the principles of "equality" and "self-honesty" (which is loaded language and means brainwashing in this case).

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SimulacronX
I don't know if it really is a deliberate decision or intention of the victims wanting to get rid of their thoughts, feelings and emotions.
If you take the first step into the fold, which can happen for various reasons, like interest in the supposed charity, or in the intention of changing oneself,
I think you very quickly and subtly become suggestible to typical manipulation methods used in all coercive persuasion groups.

The persuasive information is presented in such a way as to manipulate the person into making their own decisions to get involved. The group will say, "no-one is coerced, they made their own choices", and indeed they have, but they have been manipulated into it, willingly or not.

If such a person was asked about it, they would reply by saying in this case something like, "I considered the material and came to the realization that to make use of the tools of self-honesty, self-forgiveness and writing myself to freedom is best for all. No-one forced me into it." The way they relate to the jargon is to assume that it is plain English when it is a re-configuration of the language designed purely to persuade and manipulate.

Lindsay Lee Craver is one of the more effective communicators in Desteni, and there are very few of them; maybe about three or four. On the strength of that she will recruit. Although practically everything she talks about is herself and it is utterly boring, from another perspective she is able to present the dogma in a personable style.

Poolman gets these people to dispense with their own opinions or beliefs and to represent his opinions and beliefs instead.

For example he posts a video --

"Process Support — Vlog suggestion: Evolution"
By: Bernard Poolman
17-10-2010

in which he says:

"Process Support — vlogs on evolution. Suggestion is to do vlogs and investigate the evolution theory. Because, I mean — evolution implies improvement, becoming better, purifying, greater. And certainly the human race has become neither of any of those. So — did the human race evolve or is the human race evolving or devolving. Looks like it’s more devolving — isn’t it? So — vlogs suggestions."

Now there will be several new Desteni adverts representing Poolman's stupid opinion on evolution.

Just to clarify, he predicts that the Desteni "equal money system" will begin to be instituted throughout the world by 2020:

Heaven on Earth Predicted through EqualMoney2020

They can't keep churning out that same message.

And according to Poolman, although he sounds like he's about 60+, he is in his forties, so he's got a way to go yet.

Desteni is a very tight organization of select individuals congregated on the farm. Outside of that there are again a number of fanatical supporters, totally dedicated to the cause, LLCraver being one of them.

They are all kept well occupied with SRAT, sub4sub whoring, recruiting for the Desteni Income Plan, vlogging and blogging, watching countless videos and reading documents of the group, participating in the online forums, keeping their heads shaved, "writing themselves" to "freedom" etc, etc. There are also group meetings in Slovenia, Holland and possibly elsewhere.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2010 08:52PM by Sandman.

This is just amazing.
Why do we here for instance consider us to be impervious to such coercive manipulation?
Why can't we imagine becoming greatly commited to Desteni?
Is it really only manipulation that turns them into Desteni fanatics?
Just asking.