'Why do we here for instance consider us to be impervious to such coercive manipulation?'

I don't think that we are impervious. We are human beings with frailties and vulnerabilities, catch any one of us at a vulnerable time and we could also be influenced by all the ploys that Desteni uses to draw in unsuspecting people.

The reality is that we are all subject to constant influence from many sources. Part of educating ourselves in these ploys is to recognise them when they are used on us. Recognition at least allows a modicum of choice about whether to stay and be further influenced or to leave.

'Why can't we imagine becoming greatly commited to Desteni?'

I personally cannot imagine becoming greatly committed to Desteni as Poolman's manner, delivery, worldview, delusions of grandeur etc hold no appeal to me---but in my youth I was often suckered by manipulative types who correctly read me as a naive idealist and tailored their appeal to my naive idealism. I am no longer so naive or idealistic but still have my weak points, I just guard them a bit better.
I am very, very, very wary of commitment. I have my own rules regarding how and to what I commit as I understand from personal experience how difficult it is for me to alter course once I have committed myself. I can imagine being committed to many things but never to the aggrandisement of a deluded conman.

'Is it really only manipulation that turns them into Desteni fanatics? '

Committed Desteni-ites are telling themselves that they are committed to this equal money plan of Bernard's--for the good of all, of course. They have swallowed his line. If he were truly honest and explained the reality of the pyramid scam which will only benefit himself and a few close pals--he would have no takers.
So yes, since the equal money for the good of all is utterly unworkable and will never be workable, it is only manipulation of their minds, beliefs and emotions that has turned his followers into fanatics.

I read through the self-forgiveness ebook. 'Self-forgiveness' in Desteni-speak is simply a method by which his followers are taught to undermine every facet of their own individual personalities in an attempt to reach some mythical core being that is supposedly 'pure'. It is very similar to the Scientology myth of 'clear' which is supposedly some superhuman being.
Complete tosh of course, it is thought reform except that in Desteni's case the goal is to completely stop the mind, beliefs and emotions, a hefty nudge towards psychosis for any who commit to this.

They are taught to do this at night before sleep and to develop it into a habitual thought pattern, so they become even more self-concious, picking at and divided against themselves--a recipe for total self-hatred-- and laying themselves open for colonisation by Bernards delusions.
What do the Desteni-ites think that they are employing to stop the mind? This is a thought system where they are using and abusing the mind to plant the thought that it is possible to stop thought.

'Self-forgiveness' Desteni-style holds that the breath is the only reality once the mind is stopped. Breathing is governed by the autonomic nervous sytem and does work in conjunction with the conscious mind--conscious mind, the mind-chatter of thoughts, images, sense impressions is a better description of what Poolman is referring to when he exhorts his followers to 'stop the mind.'
But what he really wants is the followers to close down the questioning, curious, critical faculties of the mind so that they will be completely under his control and re-programmed to be his creatures.

Mind also includes all the processes that function below conscious awareness that keep a being in a state of life--Desteni-ites really need some anatomy lessons before messing about with 'stopping the mind'--look at the finely tuned, essential bodily processes you are messing with in order to feed Bernards delusions and fatten his wallet:

[en.wikipedia.org]


These autonomic processes are what is going on constantly beneath conscious awareness, there is no pure, clear, new type of human hiding there just waiting to be uncovered if by chance any Desteni-ite manages to con-vince themself that he or she has 'stopped' the thoughts, images and sense impressions of the conscious mind. All they have really done is internalise and believe in the con--they have hypnotised themselves and entered a dissociated state which may become habitual.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2010 07:12AM by Stoic.

Stoic and Sandman...you two always post really great insights on Desteni time and time again. I enjoy reading yours. Why do you do keep at it...researching this? You two seem to have it sealed up pretty well in this forum....does it become addictive finding information on these cults and how they operate? ...or is there a bigger cause to keep people safe, informed and out of the cult? ....or to bring forth a "falling-out" to crumble a cult? What's your personal motivation in this?

Here is a workable definition of 'thought', from wikipedia:

[en.wikipedia.org]

'Thoughts are forms conceived in the mind, rather than the forms perceived through the five senses. Thought and thinking are the processes by which these concepts are perceived and manipulated. Thinking allows beings to model the world and to represent it according to their objectives, plans, ends and desires. Similar concepts and processes include cognition, sentience, consciousness, ideas, and imagination.'

'Stopping the mind' is a concept, in order to perceive and manipulate this concept, the mind must be engaged, not 'stopped.' In order to think that the mind is stopped, the mind must be perceiving the concept therefore it cannot be 'stopped'.

Here is a workable explanation of what we currently understand about Mind. Mind cannot be defined as no-one has any real grasp on what it really is, it is a mystery. I certainly wouldn't allow an ignorant, deluded, abusive conman to mess with the mystery that is the only mind I can call my own:

[en.wikipedia.org]

Why would anyone have to ask why people would research and post information about nasty cults, frauds, and sects like Desteni?
Notice the reasons posted are negative motivations of, addiction, or of making a cult crumble.

The reasons are obvious.
Learning has an intrinsic curiosity, knowledge is power, people want to know what happened to them in the past and how they got duped, and sharing that information in public can help the public, and themselves. Dozens and hundreds, even thousands of people can be helped by being able to access good research and information on these nasty sects.

Some people also just don't like professional liars getting away with their scams so easily.
Its like asking, gee, why speak out and help someone vulnerable who is getting robbed in the street? Easier to keep walking for some.

The fake "Dr" Joe Vitale, the scam-artist, wrote huge blogs about how those who criticize his scams are just "jealous" of him.
As he can't understand why they do it, why they expose Joe Vitale's scams as a hobby.
Its because they don't like sleazy liars, and feel a civic duty to point out those scams, using critical thinking.

People without a normal human conscience, are mystified by that weird thing called a "conscience" that causes people to do something else other than try to line their own pockets 24/7.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2010 09:40AM by The Anticult.

'What's your personal motivation in this?'

What's yours, DesteniWhy?

You said in your first post that you were keen to join a cult but were rejected by Desteni. You won't attain your stated objective by hanging around here. I'm sure that if you gave it some thought you could come up with a plan to fulfil your desire.

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Stoic
'What's your personal motivation in this?'

What's yours, DesteniWhy?

You said in your first post that you were keen to join a cult but were rejected by Desteni. You won't attain your stated objective by hanging around here. I'm sure that if you gave it some thought you could come up with a plan to fulfil your desire.

Absolutely fair enough question. I'm a monitor. Prior to coming here I was curiously feeding on Desteni information until I reached my limitation or maybe their limitation. Now I'm curiously feeding on information here.

I imagine I could fool my way into Desteni but I don't want to be a part of Desteni anymore it's not me. I enjoy life...what they call abuse. I can think and succeeed on my own. There's nothing wrong with Equality message....but you can't take it as far as shutting down emotions and thoughts...dreams. You cannot be a lifeless, thoughtless creature that thinks love is not real. The premise behind Desteni is self-fogiveness in lieu of God-Jesus forgiveness. They are anti-Jesus, anti-bible....it's message is one of Satan's message...that can't man do it on his own and become like a God. Desteni's message is truely 1/2 perfection (correct), and 1/2 pure evil (incorrect). I love the perfect part of the message but I can NEVER accept pure evil.

I've been into everything because I'm mostly curious why there's so many committed members in Desteni that can't be swayed. It can be a cool message one linked to nature as equal...but the underlining message is one of PURE EVIL. I've been one of the forefront monitors of Desteni since 2007. I've actually been waiting for you and Sandman to appear....fresh clean water. I had thought I was going to have to take matters into my own hands, break it from the inside. I'm content now, I know Desteni is not going anyway fast and will peter out.

So what's your motivation Stoic? Why do you and Sandman put forth so much effort? I'm guilty of playing both sides (rocking the boat to see what falls out) of the Desteni arguement only to find the real answers...which in essence you two are doing too. I can tell you know their message extremely well too. sincerely DW

This is an educational site and learning is all that matters, not necessarily book learning. We all screw up until we learn a better way. Life is learning and I am a student. I learn from my own mistakes and from the experience of others but what I choose to learn is my own responsibility.
I was born into a cult family and spent many years confused, many more years trying to figure out why I was so confused. The resources available on this site are supremely helpful to anyone genuinely engaged in the hard work of navigating through such confusion.

Here, Bernard Poolman states he had been a police officer and had a law degree but as you read these posts you can see he never at any time was able to give documentary proof--even when repeatedly questioned. He ended up leaving.

A person who did this at an ordinary job interview would not do very well in the outside world.

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April 07, 2010 07:20PM BernardPoolman
Date Added: 04/07/2010

Posts: 20 Re: Desteni The members of desteni is allowed to be attacked personally -- all groups are people --you have double standards

How desteni is run is not of your concern -- where it is relevant --the necessary points are in place

I am qualified as policeman and have a law degree* and developed several software educational products in reading and mathematics for the last 15 years.

(Underline and boldface added for emphasis by Corboy)

I am qualified as a human being by virtue of my birth and claim my right to stand for a world where there is dignity for all. It is time that all take responsibility -- even you

Once an equal money system is in place -- desteni will no longer exist

[forum.culteducation.com]

On the next page of this thread [forum.culteducation.com]

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April 07, 2010 07:26PM rrmoderator
Date Added: 06/17/2002
Posts: 3942 Re: DesteniBernardPoolman:

Again, you seem to be attempting to change the subject. The topic of this thread is destini. Please stay on topic.

**You were a policeman? What police force were you a member of specifically? What rank/position did you hold?

**You have a law degree from what university?

**Is your CV or bio posted on the Web somewhere?

**Why is so much of the business side of destini being kept a secret? is meaningful transparency a problem?

**It seems that you sell products for profit through your destini company Web site, is that essentially how you make a living?

(** double asterisks added to emphasis questions put by the moderator to BernardPoolman)

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2010 07:28PM by rrmoderator
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BernardPoolman replied but did not give any information about his resume (police work/law degree)

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April 07, 2010 07:43PM BernardPoolman
Date Added: 04/07/2010

Posts: 20 Re: DesteniI am showing clearly that you have a vendetta against any group that are working towards resolutions that benefit humanity as a whole --within that all I share answers the questions directly --but expose you as particular directing things to protect the real cults in this world

The moderators make the decisions as to the forum and they are long standing doing so

The desteni assets are owned by several people that group it together -- no one person owns anything but by the copyright which we stand by -- copy right what we share

we use one language where the definitions are clear to make sure that no one misunderstand

that is simple common sense that such application will benefit all people especially at the family level and make life a lot easier and make trust attainable

do you promote that people should speak differently when you knwo it leads to abuse and lies? --with desteni we do not have to worry about lies --we speak the same language and we live it? what would you like us say or live?

is it strange to have principles?

Options:

and

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April 07, 2010 07:46PM BernardPoolman
Date Added: 04/07/2010
Posts: 20 Re: Desteniwe obviously agree and speak the same language--why do you not like that?

that seem to be a particular strange psychological condition used by followers of god, where they are all right and may interpret the bible as they wish and apparently all go to heaven only when they agree verbatim -- such a contradiction

you expose yourself as being extensively brainwashed

you need some help with self forgiveness and self honesty

on the next page, Mr Ross the moderator addressed Mr Poolman and
asked a second time for factual information about the law degree and police work

Quote

rrmoderator
Date Added: 06/17/2002
Posts: 3942 Re: DesteniBernardPoolman:

This is not destini. It is a public message board.

Attempting to manipulate the thread won't work.

You still have not answered some basic questions asked.

Why is that?

What are you hiding?

Is that type of behavior what you call "self honesty"?

You said, "Are you aware of any scientific studies that conclusively prove that Jesus awakened from the dead and awakened the dead and ascended to heaven? Is the bible a credible journal that somehow is never questioned by science?"

Does this mean that destini is like Christianity a matter of faith? Is destini a religion? Why then is it structured as a for-profit company as you earlier stated?

You said you were a "policeman." What police force did you serve? What was your position, rank and job description?

You said you have a "law degree." From what specific university did you graduate with a law degree?

Is your bio or CV posted somewhere on the Web? If so, please provide a link.

You said that a budget was somehow done for destini. Where is that posted? Can you provide a link to where it is online?

Does the budget disclose in detail your salary and compensation?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2010 10:50PM by rrmoderator

Bernard Poolman replied but said nothing about his resume or about where he got his law degree or did his police work.

Quote

April 07, 2010 08:04PM BernardPoolman
Date Added: 04/07/2010

Posts: 20 Re: DesteniBernardPoolman:

Please provide a link to where the budget is posted online.

Does the budget disclose in detail your salary and/or compensation?

If so what was your salary and compensation according to the posted budget?

Your response to requests for a scientific study is interesting.

You said, "Are you aware of any scientific studies that conclusively prove that Jesus awakened from the dead and awakened the dead and ascended to heaven? Is the bible a credible journal that somehow is never questioned by science?"

Does this mean that destini is like Christianity a matter of faith? Is destini a religion? Why then is it structured as a for-profit company as you earlier stated?

Desteni

its on the forum --join and do some reading --you may like it and get some first hand info instead of feulling lies without substance --then you can quote the full document you refer to when you speak about desteni -- I insist you do so -- when you speak about desteni to give your reader the full perspective -- that is the stature of integrity

I do not receive a salary -- only food and a place to stay and clothes - I have no interest in money for myself --only a solution for all --when a system protect all I will be protected

No--desteni approached every university that do research in this field before we went public --only one ever responded saying that they have no budget for research--money control science -- so --we went public

desteni is not a religion --we share tools that benefit those that use them --then we share goals that we approach in a way that is practical like politics for instance -- those that participate do so because they agree with the principles -- we are rather strict on principles -- that prevents deception and as i stated we always publish --that prevents people from being able to quote desteni without actual proof that is was published

we structured it as for profit because we knew that we will not get funding for an equal money solution --those with money has it all --and certainly would not like to give it up for the rest of humanity to have a dignified life -- that has been proven to be so -- we have no received any significant financial support -- and we do not anticipate to receive any

we will work our own way through this and more than 90 percent of the budget come from the original group that started desteni --and i am not one that contributed as i had noting already

Mr Ross replied

Quote

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April 07, 2010 08:11PM rrmoderator
Date Added: 06/17/2002
Posts: 3942 Re: DesteniBernardPoolman:

So the "forum" you cite is not public, but only to be seen by registered members?

I have no interest in joining your forum, but would appreciate you simply answering the questions asked.

Is the budget of destini independently audited by an outside accounting firm?

You have still not answered many of the questions asked.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2010 10:51PM by rrmoderator.

Poolman told another member what destinis was about. Mr Ross replied

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April 07, 2010 08:19PM rrmoderator
Date Added: 06/17/2002
Posts: 3942 Re: DesteniBernardPoolman:

There you go agian, attempting to pull the thread off topic.

This thread is about destini, not Marx, Communism or consumerism.

You still have not demonstrated basic "self honesty" and "integrity" by answering the questions asked about you and your business.

Why is that?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2010 08:30PM

[forum.culteducation.com]

On the next page [forum.culteducation.com]

Poolman writes

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Quote

BernardPoolman
Date Added: 04/07/2010
Posts: 20 Re: DesteniBernardPoolman:

This is not destini. It is a public message board.

Attempting to manipulate the thread won't work.

You still have not answered some basic questions asked.

Why is that?

What are you hiding?

Is that type of behavior what you call "self honesty"?

You said, "Are you aware of any scientific studies that conclusively prove that Jesus awakened from the dead and awakened the dead and ascended to heaven? Is the bible a credible journal that somehow is never questioned by science?"

Does this mean that destini is like Christianity a matter of faith? Is destini a religion? Why then is it structured as a for-profit company as you earlier stated?

You said you were a "policeman." What police force did you serve? What was your position, rank and job description?

You said you have a "law degree." From what specific university did you graduate with a law degree?

Is your bio or CV posted somewhere on the Web? If so, please provide a link.

You said that budget was somehow done for destini. Where is that posted? Can you provide a link to where it is online?

Does the budget disclose in detail your salary and compensation?

I have answered all these questions --you are manipulating

(Corboy-Mr Poolman did not answer the questions about where he got his law degree, or about his police work)

get of your high horse --you have been owned

an educational non profit? who finance you? who pay your salary

i have stated mine

what is yours?

what give you the right to play anticult? *

*(Corboy-The First Amendment of the Consitution of the United States of America, item one of the Bill of Rights)

what educational qualification is even valid for such a claim? -- all anti cults will be under the supervision of some larger group

you have no right morally or otherwise to even run this forum -- it is just self righteous abuse of people --have you been fro psychological evaluation yet?

*(Corboy, it isnt a matter of morality. It is a legal right, guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States-)

what are your issues you take out on other people? are you incapable of behavior that will benefit all of life?

what is your core spiritual obsession that justifies to you why you may attack anyone?

The only place where exposure is valid is where humanity as a whole is abused --then a solution must be presented

what solution do you have?

NONE

and

Quote

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April 07, 2010 08:30PMBernardPoolman
Date Added: 04/07/2010
Posts: 20 Re: DesteniIt was nice playing

for interested parties for common sense unbiased reports and discussions on what is best for all life -- join Desteni

we will be in your future

Mr Ross replied

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April 07, 2010 08:43PM rrmoderator Date Added: 06/17/2002
Posts: 3942 Re: DesteniTo whom it may concern:

Mr. Poolman has apparently decided to move on with his sock puppets.

He answered questions vaguely, often without substance or supporting objective evidence and/or was completely evasive.

This behavior doesn't speak well for Benard Poolman or his Destini business.

Likewise, the sing-song that was repetitiously recited by his followers on this thread appeared to be virtually verbatim what Poolman said.

Maybe the others posting here were Poolman posing under other names, or Poolman clones under his influence.

Destini seems to be a enterprise essentially dominated by Poolman and personality-driven. It apparently contains his conspiracy theories, seemingly denigrates the outside world and perhaps ultimately serves as a "cash cow," which Poolman seems to milk for his income.

In my opinion Destini can easily be seen as a "cult-like" and potentially unsafe group.

I would not recommend Destini to anyone for anything under any circumstance

s.

[forum.culteducation.com]

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April 07, 2010 07:27PMBernardPoolman
Date Added: 04/07/2010
Posts: 20 Re: DesteniQuote:
rrmoderator
Ann1986:
Welcome to the message board.

A few questions.

Is destini a registered nonprofit charity? And if so is it a religious nonprofit?

How much money is paid out in salaries each year and expenses to staff? Is there a published budget that discloses in detail how the money contributed to destini or paid for its products is used?

Are you aware of any study done to scientifically measure the results achieved by destini participants? If so has the study been peer-reviewed and published in a credible respected journal?

Desteni perspective

Are you aware of any scientific studies that conclusively prove that Jesus awakened from the dead and awakened the dead and ascended to heaven? Is the bible a credible journal that somehow is never questioned by science? how dare you mislead and ask these questions when you are not asking them where real psychological problems exist -- it the churches of this world

a budget was placed on the forum for all to see and once the new year has been done by the accountants -- the next budget will be on forum

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Quote

April 07, 2010 07:34PM rrmoderator
Date Added: 06/17/2002
Posts: 3942 Re: DesteniBernardPoolman:

Please provide a link to where the budget is posted online.

Does the budget disclose in detail your salary and/or compensation?

If so what was your salary and compensation according to the posted budget?

Your response to requests for a scientific study is interesting.

You said, "Are you aware of any scientific studies that conclusively prove that Jesus awakened from the dead and awakened the dead and ascended to heaven? Is the bible a credible journal that somehow is never questioned by science?"

Does this mean that destini is like Christianity a matter of faith? Is destini a religion? Why then is it structured as a for-profit company as you earlier stated?

[/quote]

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April 07, 2010 06:50 PMrrmoderator
Date Added: 06/17/2002

Posts: 3942 Re: DesteniBernardPoolman:

Welcome to the message board.

You say "guaranteed results."

What independent study has been done to establish results claimed by destini participants?

Is there a peer-reviewed scientific study you can cite, which has been published by a credible journal?

You say that destini is "not non profit."

Does that mean you are for-profit privately owned company?

Do you effectively control/own destini?

Or are there shareholders and a democratically elected board?

How much money does destini take in annually?

How much do you receive in salary and/or compensation?

Bernard Poolman replied

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April 07, 2010 06:54PM BernardPoolman
Date Added: 04/07/2010

Posts: 20 Re: Desteni Opinion* is something used by potentially dangerous people that spread lies as if it is true - Get the facts and it stand to reason that this forum opens itself to consequence with publishing opinion without an actual source --this is potentially harmful to people that are easily frightened with years of conditioning about the word cult -- you have hardly placed yourself in a position of integrity

*(Corboy writes-this is merely Poolman's personal re-interpretation of what opinion is--taking a common word and giving it a special meaning)

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April 07, 2010 06:57PM rrmoderator Date Added: 06/17/2002
Posts: 3942 Re: DesteniBernardPoolman:

Quote

Attacking members of this message board personally is against the rules you agreed to before posting here.

This thread is about "destini"--so please stay on topic.

You have said that destini is "non a non profit" on another thread.

Does that mean it is a privately owned and controlled for-profit company?

Do you own and control the company? Or are there other partners/shareholders?

Is there an elected board?

Is there a published budget?

Are you a licensed or board certified professional?

What is your educational background?

Is your CV* posted on the Web site somewhere?

*CV is formal academic language for 'resume'.
Options: Reply To This

[forum.culteducation.com]

And what are Bernard Poolman's motivations?
He never did identify which police force he served with, after having said he had done so. Mr Ross repeatedly asked about that.

If Mr Poolman were asked these kinds of questions as part of a job interview and treated the interviewer the way he treated Mr Ross (refusing to answer the questions with solid factual information about his background)--that would be considers impolite, even rude behavior.

You've put your trust in a leader who said he had a particular background and when asked to back it up, did not ever reply to those questions.

Oh, and I almost forgot. I can't abide conmen. They are the lowest form of life-- in my considered opinion.

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SimulacronX
This is just amazing.

It really is amazing. Other groups discussed at this forum are pretty wacky and out there and extremely manipulative, but few are as ridiculous as Desteni. This is to a large extent why it's interesting: the comedy element.

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SimulacronX
Why do we here for instance consider us to be impervious to such coercive manipulation?

Because the Desteni material is so blatant and crude in its attempts to manipulate that it is entirely unconvincing.

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SimulacronX
Why can't we imagine becoming greatly commited to Desteni?

The message behind it is irrational and impractical. It defies common sense.

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SimulacronX
Is it really only manipulation that turns them into Desteni fanatics?

That's an interesting question. There's more to it than manipulation. The Desteni material appeals to the rebellious instinct, which could be quite healthy, but in the way it's presented in Desteni it's very nihilistic. Some of the group have skills in certain areas that are not yet developed but have been co-opted by Desteni due to their exposure to the message, as it offers to make people feel useful in being able to change themselves and the world around them.

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DesteniWhy
Why do you do keep at it...researching this?

I'm intrigued by the weird combination of ideas taken from so many different sources which have been reduced to a meaningless babble... I have an ongoing interest in nonsense, myths, hoaxes, extraordinary popular delusions, and all manner of cults, spiritual and religious ideas or social phenomena...

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DesteniWhy
What's your personal motivation in this?

Past and present interests and experience which coincide with the aims of this forum... but the Anticult has given an appropriate response your questions, DesteniWhy. If we begin a discussion of our motivations for doing research and posting to this thread or forum, we will be off-topic.

As you say

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DesteniWhy
I've been one of the forefront monitors of Desteni since 2007

Perhaps you would be so kind as to answer this question: have you ever met Bernard Poolman in person?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2010 09:21AM by Sandman.