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Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 01, 2013 11:57PM

"It is therefore very difficult to pin point certain things in NKT because there is so much duplicity and double speech that makes it hard to pin point all details. "

Your Guru only cares about himself, he doesn’t care about his students.I saw how he tested those students who questioned him and it wasn’t pretty.He is a narcissist. I pray you find a teacher one day who truly cares about you and your happiness.

NKT on College Campus "Modern Buddhism"

For more read here



Meditation On University Campus :: New Kadampa Tradition Luring Students Under A New Label: “Modern Buddhist Society”
May 30, 2013 By tenpel 73 Comments
Be aware at your university not to easily be drawn into a cultish group offering meditation to “let go stress, find inner peace and openness” that is very skilled in ad, in self-promoting and communication but that is mainly fishing for new ‘recruits’. As INFORM’s Searching poster warns:

Not all paths are equally safe. Some movements promise solutions to life’s problems, but can leave you with more problems than you started with. They may:

Be dishonest or secretive about their true nature
Demand much more of your time than you expected
Cost you a lot of money and leave you in debt
Harm your relationships with your family and friends
Make you emotionally dependent on the group, so you find it difficult to leave
At York University, the highly controversial New Kadampa Tradition (NKT-IKBU) promote themselves on campus and the University’s website using a new label that hides the identity. The new label being used is “Modern Buddhist Society“, stating:

Modern Buddhism Society The Modern Buddhist Society offers bi-weekly meditation classes based on an accessible and modern presentation of Buddha’s teachings which emphasize practical ways to improve our inner peace and happiness in daily life. These classes last an hour and take place in ATB/042 every Monday 7-8pm and in the upper Quiet Place on Thursdays, are open to people of all (or no) faiths, and include a short teaching on finding inner peace and a simple guided meditation. If there is interest the society may arrange trips to the Buddhist Centre in Pocklington or further afield. Send us an email and we’ll keep you updated on what’s going on. Also, like our facebook page! :) — []

The facebook page of this group states:

We hold a weekly meditation class on Mondays at 7-8pm – now in ATB/042 – please come along! :)

We are a society at the University of York dedicated to helping all students (and tutors!) at the University find inner peace and happiness within the busyness of student living… We aim to help you let go of stress, find joy and meaning, and solve all your problems of daily life.

The Modern Buddhist Society offers meditation classes based on an accessible and modern presentation of Buddha’s teachings which emphasize practical ways to improve our inner peace and happiness in daily life. These classes last an hour and take place in ATB/042 every Monday 7-8pm and in the upper Quiet Place on Thursdays (time this term to be confirmed..), are open to people of all (or no) faiths, and include a short teaching on finding inner peace, a simple guided meditation, and questions and answers. No prior experience of meditation is necessary – no matter what your belief, you will definitely receive benefit from these simple and relaxed meditation classes!

General information
We are connected with the local Buddhist centre in Pocklington – check it out here —

The NKT have also set a group up in Cambridge at a Cambridge college, stating:

Let go of stress, enjoy inner peace, find more joy and meaning in your life. Meditation classes: Mondays, 7-8.15pm, Robinson College, Auditorium Lounge. Everyone welcome!

The Cambridge Modern Buddhism Society is dedicated to helping you to let go of stress, enjoy inner peace and find more joy and meaning in your life. This society is for everyone, not just Buddhists! Whether an atheist or whatever your belief, you can definitely receive benefit from this class.

You are invited to join our weekly meditation classes on Mondays, 7-8.15pm, in the Auditorium Lounge of Robinson College. No prior experience of meditation is necessary, everyone welcome. The classes consist of a guided meditation and a talk, with questions and answers. – Find openness and stillness within – Fill your life with joy – Solve your daily problems through meditation – Discover methods to accomplish the highest goals

General information
This meditation class a branch class of the Heruka Buddhist Centre in London. To find out more, please visit

The identity of this Cambridge group as being NKT is not that much hidden, as that of the York University. However, the promises of finding “openness”, “stillness”, “let go of stress, enjoy inner peace”, “Fill your life with joy” etc. won’t be fulfilled if you become a member of this group because the missionary drive and dynamics of this group are going to make you – highly likely – a very very busy person, who will exploit the own resources up to total exhaustion. I and other former NKT followers have experienced what INFORM is warning in their poster, that is:

NKT are dishonest or secretive about their true nature (e.g. NKT hid the low opinion, aversion, and hate against the Dalai Lama and Tibetan Buddhism in general from me; they split me gradually away from main stream Buddhism and isolated me mentally from the world)
NKT demanded much more of my time than I expected (NKT manipulated me so that I didn’t do the final exams at my university but only worked for the group for many years without any payment)
NKT cost me all of my savings and left me in debt
NKT harmed my relationships with my family and friends
NKT made me emotionally dependent on the group, and I found it extremely difficult to leave

The New Kadampa Tradition (NKT-IKBU) is one of the most successful and the most controversial Western Buddhist organisation that exploits the naivety of people and the good reputation of Buddhism to get people into their group finally splitting them away from main stream Buddhism and often splitting them away also from their family and friends. There are reasons why there is a forum “New Kadampa Survivors” with now 1,186 members. Within indo-Tibetan Buddhism there is no similar development.

One commenter noted


Dear OH,a respectful view of other Traditions is not kept. In my days add a NKT member often other traditions are ridiculed put down and laughed at. I was constantly warned not to read other traditions or be influenced by others till eventually you find yourself looking down on others and having an air of smug superiority that is horrible


Lineageholder says:
June 1, 2013 at 11:41 am
It’s wrong to ridicule other traditions and that’s not in line with Geshe-la’s view. In Modern Buddhism he says:

“Today we can see many different forms of Buddhism, such as Zen and Theravada Buddhism. All these different aspects are practices of Buddha’s teachings, and all are equally precious; they are just different presentations.”

tenpel says:
June 1, 2013 at 12:32 pm
What he says in public is different of what he says internally. In his ordination talk from 1999 for instance he makes clear that Tibetan Buddhism is “very degenerated” and that his tradition is pure. How is this not ridiculing other traditions (Tibetan Buddhism has Sakya, Kagyue, Nyingma and Gelug) and praising the own as supreme? You can always quote something nice from Geshe-la but often it does not withstand reality how he acts and speaks.

To give another example, in the public he says his students could also have other teachers than him but if a close student does so, he gets very upset with this person and doesn’t accept this at all. There are many cases of what he says in public is different from how he acts behind the public scenery.

fleadle says:
June 1, 2013 at 12:42 pm
Yes GKG is very clever at not saying anything in public that can be thrown back at him but in private it is very different. Sectarianism is rife throughout the NKT, especially by the constant reminder that this is the right path, other paths are inferior as is sung in WFJ. All the brain washing in the NKT is positive affirmations so that when heard it sounds very reasonable but soon you stop thinking for yourself, your only way of debating anything is through quotes until your so certain about everything you don’t hear other’s, you just close down.When I left I was shocked by how closed to others I became, how I no longer even knew what I thought just what KG said, that scared me.Buddha taught us to know ourselves not to know everything someone else says but ourselves, our mind, or heart and to accept ourselves in order to accept others.KG doesn’t encourage or teach this.He wants obedient slaves not free thinking individuals.

The Devils Advocate says:
June 1, 2013 at 7:02 pm
Geshe la says…………What is this, the thoughts of Chairman Mao?

The Devils Advocate says:
May 31, 2013 at 8:30 am
Sorry LH but I think you need to check your somewhat deluded and self serving definition of sectarianism…..while youre at it, check up on your history, short and long term
Or are you thinking the public will see your comment and be duped by their own ignorance of the NKTs sectarian shenanigans?
And BTW the term ‘Modern Buddhism’ is an implicit sectarian condemnation of your ‘archaic’ forebears, without whom you would not be here
Not to worry: the tiniest bit of research will show your cult for exactly what it is-even Googling NKT and ‘cult’ produces a plethora of damning evidence

Lineageholder says:
May 31, 2013 at 2:08 pm
It’s all in your mind, The Devil’s Advocate :)

The Devils Advocate says:
May 31, 2013 at 2:30 pm
Isnt that an abusers first line of defense?

john6747 says:
May 31, 2013 at 3:20 pm
If I see an advert at University for a Modern Buddhism Society I would expect to find Modern Buddhism discussed in all its forms.

john6747 says:
May 31, 2013 at 3:46 pm
When decidng upon a form of spiritualty that is for you, it is worth considering your needs, expectations and so on. Even when going on holiday we take advice about the resort and the company with which we will travel. After the holiday we may be tempted to give feedback.

Consider groups like New Kadampa Survivors, or this site as being a forum to air one’s grievances after choosing the NKT as our spiritual travel company.

New Kadampa Truth functioned for some time giving the company’s view of how all the complaints were unfounded, but that ceased to function as the NKT decided that no response was a better tactic.

In these days of Health and Safety we are encouraged to do a risk assessment. All that sites like this are doing is pointing out potential risk. If the pro’s and con’s are weighed up beforehand then there is lless chance of the risk becoming a reality.

When the phrase ‘its all in your mind’ appears, I begin to wonder where else can it be, unless there is an objective reality out there?


fleadle says:
May 31, 2013 at 10:40 pm
Since escaping the NKT I have looked at many other traditions and books and I quickly realised just how sectarian this group is. They are the only tradition that have an ex member’s support group that says it all to me. Also the fact they hide behind the title modern Buddhism says a lot too.

When reading other teachers what has stood out is how they make it clear self acceptance is vital to learning to love and open up to others but in the NKT self abuse is encouraged, the more of a martyr you are the more your held up to be a Bodhisattvas.

I remember my so called loving teacher telling me “your nothing and no one” the lack of response from NKT is simply their way of trying to seem above such meaningless conversions. The truth is they can not defend the harm they have caused so many.

Since leaving the NKT I have slowly learnt the real meaning of Buddha’s teachings, acceptance for self and others this is the opposite of what the NKT Teaches. I am saddened by the damage this cult has caused my friends, the joy it drained from so many, people who were happier before the NKT taught them how meaningless their lives were. I earn as many as I can about the NKT. I have hope that when GKG dies so will the poison be spreads. I pray my old friend’s that no longer want to speak to me because I spoke out, will see the truth and realise GKG doesn’t hold the truth, it is within all of our hearts and Buddha simply pointed the way. Well done Tenzin for spreading the truth


tenpel says:
June 1, 2013 at 12:48 pm
I wouldn’t go so far to claim that his teachings are traditional. They are based on the understanding of a very conservative Gelug wing of interpreting the Gelug teachings / Tsongkhapa but they are also superficial and often don’t go into depths and leave too many things open. For instance he has by now never explained the Vinaya properly. He even goes so far to claim the ordination lineage of NKT comes from the perfection of wisdom sutras or Geshe Potowa. But such a thing just doesn’t exist.

geshe-la is a master of indirect speech.

he doesn’t say; “don’t read other books” he just stresses how pure his own books are and that nothing else were needed than he and his books. He can even say “read other books” but if close students do so and recommend them during a study program then they are quickly removed from power.

NKT is a classical cultish system with a lot of unspoken rules and boundaries that are transmitted indirectly, you cannot easily quote them because they are transmitted between the lines, indirect speech and by what is not said or what is stressed etc. It is therefore very difficult to pin point certain things in NKT because there is so much duplicity and double speech that makes it hard to pin point all details.

Nevertheless they exist and they function.

"Lineage Holder" an advocate of NKT replied.

Fleadle, who left NKT replied to LH


fleadle says:
June 1, 2013 at 8:18 pm

Dear LH, he said this all the time. You don’t need to look at other paths your only confuse yourself.

And in private he had got very angry at those who question him.He only had his books in NKT centres this doesn’t happen in other centre’s.

in the Zen dojo I attend they stock many different books GKG is the only one who just sells his own.

I don’t expect a reply you tend to stop answering when the questions get too tough. You will not see the truth until you are outside I knew this were wrong for years because I saw so many unhappy people including myself.

After I escaped I noticed just how lost I had become,I didn’t know what I thought any more all I could do is repeat what KG wrote,I didn’t think for myself.I hope one-day you see the truth.

Your Guru only cares about himself, he doesn’t care about his students.I saw how he tested those students who questioned him and it wasn’t pretty.He is a narcissist. I pray you find a teacher one day who truly cares about you and your happiness.



fleadle says:
June 1, 2013 at 9:25 pm

It is not possible for those within a cult to understand that is what they are in and how much harm is being done. You are promised happiness and we all want that then your self esteem becomes so damaged over time you believe your unhappiness is your fault. I like what Charlotte Joko says(a western Zen teacher) this life could be it, this day, this moment, what if there is no pure land, no after life that is what we should assume and just live for today.

In the NKT I spent a lot of time feeling I was too bad to every bed a Buddha, now I just try to live day by day and if I die and all I’ve been is a good mother I’ll die happy because I know I helped one living being in the NKT I helped no-one not even my self.LH had a job to do, he had something to defend maybe one day he’ll wonder why it needs so much defending when it is apparently so special and good.


tenpel says:
June 1, 2013 at 8:24 pm

You won’t find a direct quote, indeed, that says “my books are very pure” he says: Tibetan Buddhism is very degenerated but you are lucky to have a pure tradition [which means his NKT organisation]. Then he stresses that “this lineage” [which means his NKT] is “a very pure and very special lineage” – he said this different times in his public talks during the summer festival. Then he says that: we must be very careful not to mix traditions or that our tradition [which means his NKT] looses its essential purity. This is what he says in public.

Behind the scene he was very keen to get his close students at Manjushri Institute to remove books from their shelves that were not written by him, insisting that all what they need are in his books and that this is pure Dharma. – Never forget that it was Kelsang Gyatso who ordered to remove all other books from the great Manjushri Library (see Kay or BBC Unholy Row) The students understand indirectly that the other books are a danger, wrong or impure or not as pure as his books, and that his books are pure other books either impure or a danger. Then those students transmit this understanding by similar indirect means, how I experienced it:

My NKT Resident Teacher when she saw me walking through the NKT Centre with a Dalai Lama book and a Dzogchen book said: “We study here pure Dharma!” and she looked very badly on those books, than during the teachings she mentions “Geshe-las books are pure Dharma. It is important not to mix his pure Dharma with other traditions. If this pure Dharma looses its essential purity it harms millions of sentient beings.”

This NKT Teacher was strongly inspired by the NKT successor Gen Thubten who established this fundamentalism in NKT and acted on behalf of Kelsang Gyatso. Nowadays locally there is sometimes a bit of a tolerance be it because the local resident teacher is a bit more tolerant or because he or she knows that a newbee being to early presented with NKT’s internal views might “loose faith”, so there is a pseudo tolerance or a tolerance which is based on the individual approach of a local NKT teacher. However, I observed when a NKT teacher of the foundation program recommend to read a non-Geshe-la book she was removed in between one week from her position of GP teacher. Also from such removals of GP teachers people will learn “better not to recommend non-Geshe-la books”.

Other people reported when they talked about a Dalai Lama book in the NKT centre suddenly everybody got very silent, just saying nothing. And the person was a bit shocked by this sudden silence, and asked himself: ‘What did I wrong?’ Also such means indicate indirectly an unwished behaviour and establish a hidden rule: here we don’t talk about Dalai Lama books.

The NKT is a very tricky and distorted system operating in the realm of semi-truths, and duplicity, as I said, it is sometimes difficult to pin point it because what Geshe la says in public is often acceptable but what he does behind the scene is in contradiction to what he says in public. But even if you check carefully statements from his books you find the tendency to manipulate the people to rely only on him and his book, his tradition and his dharma protector.

Here a taste of his masterful messages which can be found in his books.

Statements by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso which probably invite a narrow-minded perspective and blind faith include:


“Experience shows that realizations come from deep, unchanging faith, and that this faith comes as a result of following one tradition purely – relying upon one Teacher, practising only his teachings, and following his Dharma Protector. If we mix traditions many obstacles arise and it takes a long time for us to attain realizations.”[17]
According to Geshe Kelsang spiritual success is based on


“unwavering faith and confidence” and “it is essential to eliminate those doubts that interfere with the development of pure faith.”[18] Faith he explains is “a naturally virtuous mind that functions mainly to oppose the perception of faults in its observed object.”[19] “In particular, our ability to rely completely upon our spiritual guide depends upon having faith based on conviction that our spiritual guide is a buddha.”[20] and “We should be like a wise blind person who relies totally upon one trusted guide instead of attempting to follow a number of people at once.”[21]

Regarding sectarianism he states:


“It is mixing different religious traditions that causes sectarianism”[22] , and he discourages the reader of doing so, stating “studying non-religious subjects is less of an obstacle to our spiritual progress than studying religions of different traditions.”[22] “The practices taught by one teacher will differ from those taught by another, and if we try to combine them we will become confused, develop doubts, and lose direction.”[23] “The ugly, unfortunate result of not understanding pure Dharma and of following misleading teachings that pretend to be pure Dharma is sectarianism. This is one of the greatest hindrances to the flourishing of Dharma, especially in the West. Anything that gives rise to such an evil, destructive mind should be eliminated as quickly and as thoroughly as possible.”[24]
[17] Kelsang Gyatso: Great Treasury of Merit: A Commentary to the Practice of Offering to the Spiritual Guide, 1992, p 31

[18] Kelsang Gyatso: Understanding the Mind, 1993, p 75

[19] Kelsang Gyatso: Joyful Path of Good Fortune, 1990, p 107

[20] Kelsang Gyatso: Joyful Path of Good Fortune, 1990, p 106

[21] Kelsang Gyatso: Guide to Dakini Land: The Highest Yoga Tantra Practice of Buddha Vajrayogini, 1996: p 18

[22] Kelsang Gyatso, Understanding the Mind, 1993, p 167

[23] Kelsang Gyatso, Understanding the Mind, 1993, p 166

[24] Kelsang, Clear Light of Bliss, 1982, p 154

In his non public ordination talk he deprecates others to only praise his own NKT. He says:

Nowadays the practice of the Vinaya has almost died out, not only the Vinaya but Buddhism in general is degenerating, including the Tibetan Gelug tradition. I am not the only one who says this, many other Lamas have said the same. Over two hundred years ago a Gelugpa lama called Gungtang Jampelyang wrote a praise to Lama Tsongkhapa in which he said ‘Now, although the Ganden doctrine is increasing materially, its practice is seriously degenerating. This makes me very sad.’ Every year it is degenerating and becoming weaker, while political activities are increasing. This is very sad.

However here in the west we are very fortunate. For us this is not a degenerate but an increasing time. During an increasing time the Dharma is flourishing, it is very easy to gain realizations, and there are many pure practitioners and realized beings. When Buddhadharma first began to flourish there were many realized beings, both Yogis and Yoginis. Then gradually they became less and less common, until now it is very rare to find a pure practitioner.

Since we are living in an increasing time we need to do everything very purely and correctly. At the start of an increasing time, the Dharma will not degenerate quickly. If we followed the example of the Tibetan tradition, of degenerate times, it would be impossible for us to make any progress. The Dharma itself is of course the same but the presentation and way of practising are different., For this reason I am always encouraging you to have confidence that you can definitely gain higher realizations and become an enlightened being. I believe this is possible.


This summery of details and other parts of the NKT system of teaching, acting behind the scene different from what has been said in public (duplicity) + a number of unspoken yet well understood hidden or secret rules that are not directly verbally expressed form an understanding in a NKT follower that:

1) others are impure
2) we are pure
3) geshe-las books are pure dharma
4) only geshe-las book are enough to attain enlightenment
5) others’ Dharma books are potentially dangerous because a) they could delude the pure tradition of NKT, b) they can make me confused, c) they can decrease my faith or d) to read other Dharma books is an expression of a lack of faith (in NKT it was also said: “who has pure faith will find all what he needs in Geshe-las books.”), e) maybe they are impure?

For instance – just as an example of many there are – when Gen Kelsang Nyima the resident teacher of Dipankara Centre Berlin was asked about the English translation of Je Tsongkhapa’s Lam Rim Chen Mo, he said something like: ‘well the translators, it is not clear what their motivation is, and also it is dedicated to the Dalai Lama …’ this is just enough in NKT for a “faithful follower” to not to touch or to read this book, because as a faithful NKT you know at least for sure Geshe-las books are from pure intention and pure lineage, no danger to read them …



fleadle says:
June 1, 2013 at 12:57 pm
LH,I don’t claim to be ex NKT,I was in the tradition for 10 years,I even ordained. The main focus of many of the teachings is over coming self-cherishing, all our problems come from self cherishing, of you think of yourself your being selfish. It leaves you beating yourself up for everything, your promised happiness by KG which is stupid, but if your unhappy it’s your fault. Other Buddhist books teach that meditation is about knowing yourself, but NKT push the happiness drug. During my ten years I saw so many happy, confident people lose all their joy, being told only NKT matters, until your so closed off and isolated you can no longer relate to others. You say it’s traditional Buddhism but then it’s modern which is it. All KG did was very it translated into English, he left out big chunks of teachings, he doesn’t understand westerners NKT is just about promoting him, I’ve seen his angry side when the cutemonk act slips. He also hid sexual abuse in the tradition, he has never apologised for his actions or for the actions of his teachers that alone is disgusting.The NKT goes on about helping all living beings but in truth it’s all just about KG.


Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 02, 2013 12:06AM



TDA says:
June 6, 2013 at 7:09 am
An old favorite of mine is ” Has studied Buddhism for several years” , a standard line of many NKT teachers advertising blurb”several”.? Probably the most insipid line there could be- they don’t put a couple or a few but they mean the same thing as ‘ several’ in this case. I heard of one poor girl who was new to the NKT , ordained and was teaching within a few months. She was described as ‘an experienced practitioner’ My heart aches at this abuse of the innocent


fleadle says:
June 6, 2013 at 10:17 pm
I had been in 6 months when I started teaching, you feel privileged to be asked so even though it felt crazy I trusted my teacher, but he was just another brainwashed sap like me! All KG cares about is getting more students, more money, more power, and at others expense. I pray for those still stuck in that awful cult.


The Devils Advocate says:
June 20, 2013 at 9:14 am
The Kadam forefather, Atisha said
‘You can teach others when you’ve realized selflessness and achieved clairvoyance.
You can work for the benefit of others when you no longer think of your own benefit.’

The founder of the Kadam ,Dromtönpa,said,
‘It’s useless for a beginner without experience or realization to try and help others with Dharma. Just as nothing can be poured from an empty vessel, no blessings can be obtained from him’

The supposed rejuvenator of the Kadam, Kelsang Gyatso said
‘Just read this book and you’ll be qualified to teach others.’


fleadle says:
June 20, 2013 at 6:22 pm
Well he cares about quantity not quality, if you have a mouth and half a brain off you go to teach. I knew some teachers who had very dodgy morals yet were being held up as advanced teachers I think this was bad for them and their students.



tenpel says:
June 22, 2013 at 9:21 am
Dear Fleadle,
I read Stephen Schettinis book in full “Why I became a Buddhist monk …” In that book he describes his encounter with Kelsang Gyatso in Italy at the Istituto Lama Tsongkhapa

Back in 1982, I translated a seven-day course for Geshe Kelsang Gyatso in the Lama Tzongkhapa Institute in Italy. I found him a pedantic teacher and an irascible man, one of very few Tibetan teachers to whom I took a visceral dislike.


fleadle says:
June 22, 2013 at 5:46 pm
I have heard many describe him in this way. Especially the short fuse,I know many feared him.He does deserve a medal for acting the sweet, harmless little monk he does it well.


It’s a bit funny, Kelsang Gyatso founded NKT, then he founded the International Kadampa Buddhist Union (IKBU) which is nothing else than NKT. Now he establishes “Modern Buddhism” as an “international movement” which is nothing else – again – than the NKT. Then of course there is also “Kadampa Buddhism” which is nothing else than NKT. It appears that from time to time the organisation which sees it self as new and as a “tradition” must find a new label. The “tradition” changes quickly … [it’s names].


The Devils Advocate says:
June 2, 2013 at 9:22 am
Also , in Understanding the Mind, KG states “The practices taught by one teacher will differ from those taught by another, and if we try to combine them we will become confused, develop doubts, and lose direction.”

What then of the study of the tenets of various schools in order to develop the understanding of the highest philosophical view. Surely the great Geshe would have studied the tenets of the Vaibashikas and the Vijnanavada on his journey to the exalted state of Third Buddhahood?? Doesnt his own assertion above mean he is actually confused, doubt filled and lacking direction?

Again, what of the incomparable Tzongkapa, on whose teachings the NKT claim theirs are based?

Didnt Tzongkapa study with numerous masters of the Nyingma, Kagyu and Sakya traditions before formulating his own particular views? Is KG suggesting Tzongkapa was actually confused, doubt filled and lacking direction?

I think we should be told. There seems to be something of a contradiction here, and one that could easily be construed as a means of ensuring ones followers do not look elsewhere. perhaps for reasons other than those professed?

fleadle says:
June 2, 2013 at 6:56 pm

GKG is far from stupid, he knows of his students read around they will see how much he has left out of his tradition, how narcissistic his path is. People may start thinking for themselves.He once told my teacher the perfect disciple is like a dog they just do what you tell them to. Enough said I think.



fleadle says:
June 3, 2013 at 9:20 pm
KG doesn’t understand westerners let alone modern westerners. He and his tradition encourages such unhealthy psychology, such as martyrdom, self abuse, low self confidence. This is either because he has poor understanding or he understands is too well and uses that against us.What is sad is how much his students defend him yet he cares nothing for them. I’ve seen how he treats those who devoted much of their life to him but when they start questioning a dragon is released. My heart goes out to all those disciples who he is conning,I hope they see the truth sooner rather than later


tenpel says:
June 3, 2013 at 11:17 pm
I agree with you.
I think he does neither understand Westerners, nor does he understand “Modern Buddhism”. He lets every student in second go down – in a very rude, harsh and hurting manner – if such a student dares to disagree with him.

tenpel says:
June 4, 2013 at 7:33 am
They learn from the Christian missionaries. If you want to establish your religions win the mind and hearts of the young people. The younger they are the better you can influence and control them. That’s why they won’t build a home for elderly people (except it brings a lot of money). That NKT follows the example of Christian missionaries is not my idea it was said and recommended by Kelsang Gyatso himself. An early New Moon NKT magazine reported in an article how NKT proselytised Spain by learning first from Christian missionaries and then applying their tactics to get their foot into Spain. What NKT applies as a tactic with the primary schools is what Christian missionaries do in Tibet:

Targeting the young is key. When a South Korean missionary asked Tenzin which Tibetans needed help, he suggested the elderly. According to Tenzin, the Korean replied: “Not old people — [we want] children.”


It might be good to put all former NKT Full Moon magazines online [if any body has a copy of one or some (or even the files), please contact me]. The NKT was so boastful and blind that they didn’t realise how self-revealing their own magazine Full Moon was. I remember many articles from those magazines … e.g. two 18/19 year old boys who were interviewed as NKT ‘Buddhist teachers’ about teaching Buddhism to others in that young age. Their reply was: if you have faith in Geshe-la you can do that. [underlying meaning: you don't need any qualification you only need 'faith'.]


Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 02, 2013 12:20AM


Historical and Current Problems and Controversies Affecting the Development of Buddhism in Britain, Europe and the West

Bullying & Intimidation: The New Face of Buddhism in the West

What do you make of a Buddhist group that threatens to sue anyone who dares to say anything critical about it? Enter, the New Kadampa Tradition

In July 1996, the UK¡¯s Guardian newspaper reported that ¡°One former member wrote to Kelsang with a number of concerns about the NKT. In his reply, Kelsang rejected all the criticism and threatened legal action if any of the criticisms were ever published. In June, the NKT wrote to an Internet user, referring to legal action because he had disputed the history and origins of Dorje Shugden¡±

Sound a little odd? Well, it looks like it didn¡¯t start there.

Dr Edward Reiss

In 1997, Helen Waterhouse¡¯s ¡®Buddhism in Bath¡¯ paper mentioned an unpublished document on the NKT by Dr Edward Reiss. According to Waterhouse, Reiss used extensive quotes from internal NKT documents ¨C Full Moon magazine and an internal ¡®Notes on Teaching Skills¡¯ document to justify its points......The six-page document [is] organised into several sections:
1. ¡®Cultism: Personality Cults¡¯,
2. The Benefit of Buddhists: Milking the DSS (the residents on public benefit issue), 3. ¡®Free to Leave? Insider and outsider doctrines¡¯,
4. Deceptive Presentation,
5. Mind Control: By-passing the critical faculties,
6. Buddhist Fundamentalism? Dissent and independence.

This is followed by two pages of ¡®Recommendations and Questions¡¯ to the NKT/Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.

The reason the document never saw the light of day? Seemingly, Reiss was threatened with legal action.

the Washington Times & Sydney Morning Herald

In November 2002, Kelsang sent the editor of the Washington Times with the following message

¡°1. You can publicly apologize and withdraw your false statements and accusations and print an article which must be based on my above letter on the front page of your newspaper ¡° and
¡°2. If you do not accept to publicly apologize and withdraw your false statements and accusations, and to print an article based on my letter as detailed in point (1), then I have no choice but to engage in legal action.¡±

A letter expressing the same threat of legal action was sent to the editor of the Sydney Morning Herald a couple of days later

Lama Yeshe, founder of Manjushri Institute

This was not the first time the NKT leader and his followers had issued threats. In the period preceeding the NKTs birth, in 1983, Kelsang sent his disciple Chip Rodamor and translator to put pressure on Lama Yeshe to release Conishead Priory to Kelsang and the board of trustees, whom Kelsang had talked into supporting him. When Lama Yeshe chose not to meet with Kelsangs messengers, Rodamor sent him a tape containing the following message


¡°Now at present, the Charities Commission holds a type-written report numbering close to 100 pages which not only summarise a number of civil and criminal illegalities with respect to the conduct of the management of Manjushri Institute but also contains supporting evidence. Please also appreciate that our attorney in London, who is an expert in Charity Law, also holds details of the most serious criminal illegalities conducted by some of the trustees and others and supporting evidence. Now, the immediate consequence of not signing the agreement that we presented to you a few days ago is that our attorney in London will turn over the details of the most serious criminal illegalities to the Solicitor General¡¯s Office. The consequence of this will be a police investigation of the trustees of the Manjushri Institute in addition to the conduct of the FPMT organisation. In addition to this the Charities Commission will start a full investigation of the civil and criminal illegalities¡­.. If we are unable to return to England with your signature¡­¡­ then please know, Lama, without doubt that civil and legal actions will commence next week.¡±


The sun sets on Conishead Priory

What the tape didn¡¯t do was thank Lama Yeshe for inviting Kelsang to teach at Manjushri, nor did it acknowledge that the ¡°civil and criminal illegalities¡± Rodamor spoke of had taken place while Kelsang was in charge! (No charges were ever brought, something which, as we shall see, is a recurrent theme in the NKT¡¯s legal policy)

In true Buddhist spirit. Lama Yeshe accepted defeat and offered the victory to Kelsang and the Priory became the physical nucleus of the NKT. What Buddhist principles lay behind the bullying and power games that gave the Priory to Kelsang as yet, remain unclear.

The UK Network of Buddhist Organisations

In 2009, Kelsang personally organised worldwide demonstrations against the Dalai Lama, this after publicly promising that he would never do such a thing again, after having organised similar demonstrations during a previous visit by the same.

In response to this news, the Chair of the UK Network of Buddhist Organisations wrote to the NKT, suggesting:

The second wave of worldwide demonstrations against the Dalai Lama in 2008.
Despite Kelsang personally organizing them, and the demos being populated
overwhelmingly by NKT members, Kelsang denies any involvement of the NKT

¡°¡­¡­.if the NKT leadership want to enhance the reputation of their organisation they should distance themselves and their organisation from any potential demonstration and make it clear in writing that if anyone does protest, this is unofficial. We would further suggest that NKT supporters are asked by the leadership not to undertake any protest at all.¡±

Interestingly, when the NKT first joined the NBO, it was on the basis of a promise made by NKT senior Jim Belither that the group would refrain from such protests in the future.

As a result of their joining, 3/4 of the NBOs Tibetan membership left.

In light of the storm of controversy the protests caused, the NBO formulated a code of conduct for all its members to sign before their annual membership renewal. One of the most significant clauses was that members should refrain from public conflict and to express any grievances privately, behind closed doors.


"Earlier this year, in the letter sent by the NBO Treasurer, you invited the NKT to renew its NBO membership with the condition that the NKT must accept the new rule that you have created for members. On 2ih January 2009 we replied explaining that the NKT should continue always to be a member of the NBO, but that we would not accept the new rule you are making which directly violates democratic rights of free speech and action. The NKT asked you not to create such an unfair rule."

*Because we are Buddhists, we need to solve our problems and misunderstandings through peaceful methods, with a good heart and an open mind........(however,) If we fail to resolve this problem through peaceful methods there is no doubt that we will therefore need to engage in legal action to clarify the issue of the position of the members of the NBO and to achieve a final resolution. In conclusion, the NKT asks that the NKT always remains a member of the NBO but, the NKT cannot accept the new rule that you have undemocratically created. And we ask: do you accept this? We need your reply before the 10th April 2009. If we do not receive your reply by that date, we will regard that you have not accepted."

The NKT did not renew its membership.

Coinicidentally, two of Kelsang's majordomos, Kadam Lucy James and Bjorn Clausen, who had been actively involved in organizing previous demonstrations but who had expressed concerns about potential repercussions of repeating the same mistake, were immediately removed from their positions

In response, James wrote:


Since the beginning of our involvement with the NKT we have been repeatedly told that the NKT was not involved in politics. Now that the NKT has opened up with its political position and begun demonstrating I can no longer be a part of the organization. This complete lack of honesty about the NKT's involvement in Tibetan politics is the reason for my departure."


Inform is an independent academic body funded by the UK Government¡¯s Home Office and based at London School of Economics and Political Science (LSE), one of the UK's leading academic institutions.

As the NKT gained increasing prominence, so to did the complaints about its activities In 2008,inquiries received more enquiries about the NKT than any other British New Religious Movement, as also was the case for the following few years.

In response to these increasing inquiries, Inform produced an information leaflet on the NKT, charting its history and development as well as some, though not all, of the controversies surrounding it.

As academics involved in the study of New Religious Movements, Inform provides the organizations it comments on with draft copies of anything it writes so that they have the chance to comment before publication. However, when Inform provided the NKT with what they intended to publish, the NKT responded, characteristically, by threatening legal action and the publication was adjusted.

Gary Beesley, Author of 'A Cuckoo in the Peacock Palace'

Perhaps the most infamous and controversial legal threat issued by the NKT came in 2010, in the run-up to the publication of 'A Cuckoo in the Peacock Palace: The Decline of Tradition in 21st Century Western Buddhism and the Rise of the New Kadampa Tradition'

The publicity for the book read:


"Many visitors to the Dalai Lama's teachings across Europe and the USA in 2008 were surprised to come across groups of Chinese and Western protesters, many dressed in Tibetan Buddhist robes and with shaven heads, chanting anti Dalai Lama slogans, accusing him of being 'a liar', a 'hypocrite', and a denier of the basic human right to religious freedom¡±

"A Cuckoo in the Peacock Palace" charts the gradual development of the deity cult lying at the very beginning of the long running dispute that gave rise to these protests, from its bloody and controversial birth in the mid 1600s, down to its continuing bloody and controversial existence in the present day¡±

"Since the overwhelming majority of protesters outside the Dalai Lama's teachings internationally were members of the Western, Neo-Buddhist Movement, the New Kadampa Tradition, and since it was they who provided the logistical framework and manpower behind them, 'Cuckoo' analyses the history of the NKT and asks to what extent the group have become puppets of the Chinese propaganda machine in its ongoing war with the Dalai Lama of Tibet¡±.

Two weeks before the book was due to be published, both Beesley and his publisher received letters stating:


In the title and subtitle of this book you are deliberately and directly implying that the development of the New Kadampa Tradition has caused the Gelug Buddhist Tradition to decline. This is entirely false and misleading, and very negative and extremely harmful ...This will of course cause great damage to the public moral and financial standing of all these Centres, now and far into the future".

"Because we are Buddhists it is always important to try to solve our problems by peaceful means. For this reason, the NKT would like with this letter to propose to you that you completely remove all the negative information about the New Kadampa Tradition, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Dorje Shugden from your forthcoming book. If you sincerely agree to do this, then the 1,200 Buddhist Centres of the New Kadampa Tradition will patiently accept the immense harm that you have already done to their reputation by spreading this false information on the Internet."

"If you accept this proposal, we request you to you give us the opportunity to read and consider the book before it is published so that any false or defamatory statements or implications can be clarified with you. If you do not accept this proposal, then the NKT will have no choice but to engage in legal action against you and your publisher to protect all the Buddhist Centres of the New Kadampa Tradition. The NKT would sue for compensation for the further great damage to its moral and financial standing that the book would cause.¡±

Unable to meet the substantial legal costs involved in fighting the NKT in the UK courts, Beesley was forced to withdraw the book, despite its contents being thoroughly evidenced.

The incident caused uproar across the web and confirmed the NKTs reputation as the most Draconian and litigious of all of Britains most controversial Buddhist, New Religious Movements

For further background information, as well as an explanation of more sinister reasons behind the withdrawal of Beesley's book, see[]

Kadam Nick Gillespie

In April 2012, the NKT expelled Nick Gillespie, probably one of the biggest cogs in the organization's business machine. For many years, Gillespie had been the main person responsible for developing the NKT's centres and increasing membership: he helped set up the Madhyamaka Centre near York in 1986.He had also been spokesperson for the NKT front group, the Shugden Supporters in the West He was the man behind the bulhorn at the earliest demonstrations outside London's Office of Tibet in 1996.

Then, in his obvious enthusiasm, Nick decided to write a book on Buddhism. Here is the NKT response to his decision to share his wisdom


"I am writing this letter on behalf of the NKT Education Council regarding your forthcoming book "Where Happiness Is". In the preface of your book you indicate that you are a pure and qualified NKT Teacher. Clearly you are saying this publicly in order to fulfil your personal aim which is the opposite of Geshe-Ia's intention to flourish pure Kadam Dharma.

On the 21st July the Education Council removed you from the position of an NKT Resident Teacher. If you are a pure and qualified NKT Teacher then why did the Education Council remove you from your position? Without permission you cannot use Geshe-Ia's name, NKT's name or any of the NKT Dharma Centres in your book to show yourself as a qualified Buddhist writer. If you do this without permission from the NKT Education Council then the NKT will engage in legal action against you to seek compensation for the great damage in the future to the NKT's development both spiritually and materially. You should also know that you have a legal agreement with the NKT which you signed so you will have broken this agreement.

Because we are very worried that your actions will cause people confusion and to follow in a different direction and in this way NKT quickly will be destroyed. So to prevent these dangers the Members of the weekly meeting of the Education Council made the decision and are asking the Admin Directors of all the NKT Dharma Centres including in particular KMC New York City to cease the connection between the Centre and yourself Nick Gillespie. This ban will be effective on the 29th April 2012."

"What goes around, comes around"

Justin Timberlake
So, for wanting to share the teachings of Kelsang, Gillespie was banned from the NKT an threatened with legal action. With friends like that.........

The Trustees of the NKTs Maitreya Buddhist Centre

NKT faithful trustees helped set up and successfully run their Maitreya Centre near Hastings for five years; the centre was regularly attended by around 50 devotees (who obviously dont read the papers or surf the web!) All went well until, without explanation or warning, Head Office sacked the popular, long term resident teacher and put in place a new teacher who didnt see eye to eye with the trustees. When one trustee complained, he too was 'sacked', without further explanation.

This caused what one person described as ¡°a traumatic and bitter dispute¡± leading to NKT Head Office komandants, who clearly rule with an iron fist in their quest to ensure obedience and uniformity of product, issuing a number of legal threats, with Obersturmf¨¹hrer Mcbretney, who spends much of his time signing legal threat letters to all and sundry, as well as several to politicans, condemning the 'demonic' Dalai Lama (see an example here) and making false allegations and disngenuous claims of representative status to the police ( or what some call 'lying'), in a vain attempt to get them to throw the legal occupants of the centre out of the premises. The website of the centre was even hijacked so as to paint a picture of everything being just fine and dandy: the page describes the centre as "a special place of tranquility, rest, reflection and friendship". Honest, It really is.(Ed. Urm, thats lying too, isnt it?)

You can read about at the "special place of tranquility, rest, reflection and friendship" is really like at:


Unfortunately for Head Office, All NKT centres are legally autonomous charities,which has numerous benefits, including microscopic tax bills for a political organization, sorry, 'religious charity' ( Wooops, I did it again, 'group of charities') with a massive, multi-million pound annual turnover (something ordinary, non-celestial beings call 'tax avoidance'). So it was that, when the trustees at Maitreya decided they didnt like being told what to do by the autocratic and authoritarian bully boys at Head Office, they refused to comply with their edicts, as is their legal right under the charity's constitution.

The situation is now at an impasse, with the Charity Commission advising both sides to enter into conciliatory mediation. The trustees, in true Buddhist fashion, have publicly stated their willingness to do so. NKT Head Office remain silent.

So this is how the NKT treats those who have tirelessly worked hard for them for years, giving up much of their free time and energy to promote 'Kadam Dharma'. Coming soon to a town near you. Fancy it?

"When their sandcastles collapse, children howl in despair"
Shantideva, 8th century CE

"And so castles made of sand fall in the sea, eventually."

Jimi Hendrix, 20th century CE

The Clenched Fist-the NKT mudra

Before the NKT, this wouldve been a joke
Now its a reality

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Options: ReplyQuote
New Kadampa Tradition BBC News September 2023
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 30, 2023 10:15PM

Religion: Anglesey dad fears Buddhist group brainwashed son

September 28th, 2023


Corboy note:

After the Covid shut down, NKT and other such groups are out there today
looking for new fresh bodies. NKT posts fliers for meditation classes.

Do background research on the history, the leader and financials of any group
offering meditation classes, especially if they are free. It costs money to print fliers.

Eventually you will be expected to pay up. Find out the group's history before you get emotionally and socially involved.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: New Kadampa Tradition BBC News September 2023
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: November 08, 2023 09:14AM

Reflections and a reading list by a former NKT devotee.

Buddhist Bullshit


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Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by: earthquake ()
Date: November 27, 2023 01:16AM

Hey Everyone,

I've not read this thread fully, so apologies if I repeat something, or am mistaken in some way also.

I was involved with NKT decades ago, for a time. Then left. More recently, when I decided I couldn't be bothered teaching Vedanta anymore, I stepped back from it, with love. I happened to go on two Buddhist retreats sometime after, and found myself reaquainting with NKT once more. This was only for a short time, as I've now joined a Dzogchen lineage.

While I was back with NKT I did speak to my teacher about the issue between NKT and the Dalai Lama. The NKT view is a bit different, naturally. While i'm not getting into the truth of any matter in this topic, it was explained to me that the Dalai Lama is a political head, as much as a spiritual one. Which should be taken into account. Apparently, there is documented evidence of harrassment toward NKT, from other quarters.

Gehse-Le wanted NKT to stay very traditional, and this comes from Kadampa (not New Kadampa). Kadampa was always like this all those years ago. Some may call that sectarian, others can call it trying to keep their tradition intact. But they were quite focused on that.

My conversation with my teacher was in private, and she was willing to discusss it. The Dalai Lama (and others) promote the RIME movement, which is very good of course. However, and this is rhetorical, do all have to be this way? Can they not decide among themselves internally?

I wasn't involved with NKT enough to comment on cult aspects, if I saw any I'd tell you. I was only on the fringes of NKT.

I'd disagree with posts (I've just read) that Geshe-Le thought of himself above others, such as Je Tsongkhapa. I never experienced that, at least. In the NKT prayers they always give dedication to teachers such as Tsongkhapa. NKT has books that focus quite a bit on Je Tsongkhapa. And you have only to read this page to seee the reverence for him: [].

Going from memory hee, I recall being told in NKT, that there was discussions between Dalai Lama & Geshe-Le (offices also), in regard to Shugden practice, and that HHDL wanted it to stop. But, New Kadampa wishing to keep it's traditions intact, did not want to. I was told, that NKT was told it had to stop, that there was no choice. There is more, but I can't recall exactly what was said. It was at the point of being told they had no choice but to stop, that the issue started. For NKT it was a case of religious freedom. This is what I was told, at least. But it's widlely known anyhow, that this is the NKT view.

NKT isn't really Tibetan anymore, they're independant. I studied some of their texts in retreat, early in the year, for four months, and found it incredibly beneficial. However...

One thing that I learned from Rick Ross's book's though, is that an absence of abuse with one person (or a group of persons) does not mean a group is safe. It only takes a small numbe of victims for a group to be unsafe. In that regard, this forum is a wonderful place in which people can come and safely discuss their experiences and concerns.

Warmest wishes


"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."

~ George Orwell

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