Hi superscot

You say:

But, (and this is one I wonder whether you'll answer or not...), there are lines in the Wish Fulfilling Jewel prayers which state that Dorje Shugden is higher than Buddha.

As Buddhism is named after the historical Buddha Shakyamuni, that it heresy, pure and simple. Thankfully I burned those prayers.


I do Wishfulfilling Jewel every day and there are no such lines. If you think there are, please quote them.

All NKT classes, pujas and retreats begin with a praise to Buddha Shakyamuni called 'Liberating Prayer'. We're in absolutely no doubt where Buddhism comes from.

By the way, Buddhism is not named after Buddha Shakyamuni. Buddha means 'one who has awakened from the sleep of ignorance and who sees things as they really are'. This is a generic term for all fully enlightened beings and Buddha Shakyamuni is one of many such beings - the fourth of the thousand Buddhas of this Fortunate Aeon who will appear to teach Dharma.

Get a life...

Hi,

Thanks everyone for the revealing discussion. I was involved in NKT for a few months but have got out due to various gut feelings and things that weren't right, as well as noticing that something Kelsang Gyatso's was writing about in his book was total nonsense because he had misinterpretated the original text explaining the point (by Shantideva) and had apparently totally failed to get it. No point in studying one man's books when the book's been going round in circles saying the same thing for ages and is now giving wrong information as well!

It's good that certain ideas should be spread - the idea that compassion, caring for others, not dwelling so much on one's own desires and the line of thought in ones head - these fundamental concepts will lead to more happiness and is part of something which probably formed the basis for all religions because it's based on various facts in reality that we don't necessarily realise. Unfortunately in all cases it has been twisted by people who didn't understand it properly, didn't understand what, for instance Jesus, had meant, and NKT is an example of this now happening in Buddhism - a follower misreading, misunderstanding, and yet tacking his own bits onto the teaching, and teaching his misinterpreted version, which will always get somewhere due to the basic parts that help and make a noticable difference to people, but cause pain and suffering when it comes round to the parts that are not coming from truth but from that human being's delusion and ego.

Using the tools from Buddhism, NKT have a perfect tool to gain members. They have Meditation - which all the classes are called (even though in a 1.5 hour class you get a couple of sets of a few minutes of meditation in between long talks about Buddhism (or the NKT version of it). Someone joins, starts doing what's said re compassion, controlling the mind etc, it works, they feel good, they feel no longer lost, they have community, purpose, guidance and a path.

It is reality that feeling compassion for others and behaving with that as an objective, not dwelling in the line of thought in ones head, seeing that our thoughts do not define us, and practicing striving to control states such as anger and irritation, are the way to a happier life. And most people (especially in the West) long for a sense of belonging and being valued in a social group working together on something. It works to put your faith in a "higher power" and surrender and just work on regulating/changing your own behaviour in various defined ways - that's why AA is so successful. That higher power doesn't have to be Kelsang Gyatso. If it is working for a while, it is not due to him or his writings (apart from in the sense that the community is set up due to his project). If the top is flawed it will probably only work up to a certain point.

I've seen that it's believed within the NKT that the leader is an "enlightened being", while the idea that we all have the seed of enlightenment within us, although mentioned, is not properly taken notice of. A gut feeling of something being wrong that someone may have is probably coming from intuition - the seed of enlightenment. I.e. when someone in a meditation class said their family member had died and they were upset, and the teacher started banging on about how it was their fault due to something they'd done, my gut feeling was to feel quite annoyed at that, and protective of this person. But then I decided teacher knows best - after all, if they're teaching all this stuff that is true, compassion, not self-cherishing, then this must also be true. That's how people are sucked in. NKT have and offer some of the truth, but they also offer that which isn't and is more of an abomination of the truth. Karma is obviously more complicated than this. Someone used an example of rape, I think earlier in this thread or maybe somewhere else, and it's clear that this explanation could be given to someone who'd been raped, and really just has the effect of excusing the perpetrator and making the person think it's some sort of reverberation for something they don't (and of course won't) even remember doing. While in a way the concept that someone may have been responsible for their problems is helpful - it gives a sense of control, and maybe as long as we are good from now on it won't happen again, etc, and self-responsibility is the way to be - but in the wrong hands, a vulnerable person is just as vulnerable but is now dependent on NKT and towing the party line. Karma as put forward by NKT is also a great argument for why someone may rightfully be in a position of power, such as a monk who happens to be at the top of a large organisation with loads of followers who look up to them as superhuman - of course, he must have done many great things and been a good person in previous lives - what a lot of practice he's had doing the right thing and why would he need accountability, and if he's enlightened then why would anyone question, the answer if they don't agree or get it is that they're just not enlightened and he is.

It's quite sad that people, through delusion (they aren't doing this on purpose but are living out yet another angle of delusion) have their hands on genuine tools and teachings that will work and therefore further their project, but are being so loose about the potential damage of the power this gives them and looking only to expand and become more powerful - this is of course classic behaviour of the ego, not enlightenment. A large number of the people who get involved appear to me to be vulnerable people, e.g. in unhappy situations, unemployed, mental health problems, sad things happening in the past, etc. This is what is sad when the organisation are not doing things correctly. Obviously someone who is teaching vulnerable people and is called a "teacher" should have more knowledge than can be gained in about 6 months to a year (by using books that basically say the same thing over and over again quite a lot and which you study at a rate of a few pages a week) especially if they're stating that what they're teaching will bring the people "everlasting" "permanent" "happiness".

Another thing that I didn't think much of was the emails suggesting I do more for them - another way of getting more out of a person. You may be involved in your own voluntary work and think it more worth your time spending a day doing that, but they have this idea that if you do work at a Dharma centre (i.e. benefitting that organisation) then you get amounts of "merit" in a kind of multiplying way. You can go round in circles arguing about this trying to point out the truth - that doing good can be done anywhere. I quite understand the point that "the Dharma centre is for the benefit of everyone" and therefore work done there benefits everyone. This can be seen clearly as a truth in reality (if you accept that the spreading of Buddhism in the NKT way is a good thing) in that helping a Dharma centre has potential to help everyone. However, the person or organisation who would argue blindly that work done that benefits their organisation is better than work done elsewhere is arguing from the point of view of ego, not from an enlightened point of view. You're already giving an amount of money for your classes, but this apparently disappears into the ether for all the recognition there is of you having paid this (out of your hard earned money that you could be spending on something else) - now they point out that helping the centre is where you can get the most "merit" and that you should be doing this.

I was also quite surprised to calculate how much a friend living at a Dharma centre was giving for one room if you add up the amount she's paying in rent, and add her hours of work required even at minimum wage to that. I suppose the argument for that was that her hours of work is "generating merit" for her, but 7 hours a week of someone's work must be quite helpful to a centre, so I'm surprised that wasn't at all reflected in the rent which was perfectly normal for a room in the same area.

I think what is happened is that a monk has read and read but never actually understood what he is supposed to be learning, and in fact ego has been running this show, and that's what has caused the problem.

And I wanted to point out a couple of things that one has to sing in every class. This is one of the verses after making requests to various Buddhas and Deities (I have added the bold):

"I make requests to you, Venerable Kelsang Gyatso,
Protector of a vast ocean of living beings,
Unequalled Teacher of the paths to liberation and enlightenment
Who accomplish and explain everything that was revealed
By the Fourth Deliverer of this fortunate Aeon."
(taken from Universal Compassion by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso)

And another (you are expected to sing this from the start in retreats and foundation programme):
"The two attainments both depend on
My sacred vows and my commitments;
Bless me to understand this clearly
And keep them at the cost of my life.
(taken from Universal Compassion by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso)

I was encouraged to sign paperwork called "The commitments for enrolment Foundation Programme" one of which was that I would attend every class for the book I signed up for. Whoops! It's all very rude actually, being nice is great, but there's no real respect for the people who give their time and money? It's all out the window unless it conforms to the fantasy world they're being sold. I'm looking forward to my new (second) Dalai Lama book "For the Benefit of all Beings - A Commentary on the Way of the Bodhisattva. Now that's something worth reading.

J

Thank you Rude Awakening...Have you got the Wish Fulfilling Jewel Puja? I burned all that stuff, but I know that there's a line in it where Dorje Shugden is described as higher than Buddha. naturally that makes it hard for me to prove, so I've been trawling the net trying to find a copy (not surprisingly it's not anywhere onkine that I can find...)

Also, simplifying the practice to just concentrate on the historical Buddha is more productive here. After all, the many myths that have arisen (including the hilarious one where he was born from his mother's armpit) are just distractions from his message. One Buddha is enough, we don't have written teachings from any other...

While I was there I noticed a nun who was one year from retirement age. She was persuaded that she 'wasn't a good enough person' ...that's what she said to me one day. After the 'loving kindness' retreat she had been advised to complete she was moved to another centre as she had to give up her admin post due to ill health and her pension money didn't cover the room rental. Last time I saw her she was blank eyed and submissive, bowing ostentatiously to the painting of Avalokiteshvara at Manjushri centre last summer. I guess she had nowhere else to go.

Also, one of the 'star teachers' who can quote Geshela ad infinitum turned out to be a self abusive anorexic who had no relationship with her parents. By her own admission, she had memorised the texts because she could not sit to meditate (so bad was her state of mind). Despite it being an open secret, she has received no help at all, but is still abusing herself, walking dangerously long 'pilgrimmages' with little or no food and sleeping rough in order to raise funds for this 'building project'.

And yes, just like the bible, this has been twisted around to suit the perpetrators of all the delusory abuse.

I got tickets to see His Holiness in Scotland this June so I'm well chuffed. His books are well worth reading!

Here is the NKT rationale for why its so important to rely on Shugden.

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There is no difference in the compassion, wisdom, or power of the various Dharma Protectors, but because of the karma of sentient beings, one particular Dharma Protector will have a greater opportunity to help Dharma practitioners at any one particular time.

We can understand how this is so by considering the example of Buddha Shakyamuni. Previously the beings of this world had the karma to see Buddha Shakyamuni’s Supreme Emanation Body and to receive teachings directly from him.

These days, however, we do not have such karma, and so Buddha appears to us in the form of our Spiritual Guide and helps us by giving teachings and leading us on spiritual paths. Thus, the form that Buddha’s help takes varies according to our changing karma, but its essential nature remains the same.

Full text that this small quotation was taken from. It contains the admonition that we must not become discouraged if we dont become wealthy. (!)

[webcache.googleusercontent.com]

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Protector Day
Kadampa practitioners traditionally make offerings and requests to the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden, especially on Protector Day, the 29th of each month. Tara Center usually schedules Wishfulfilling Jewel puja with tsog offerings on this day, although the extensive puja Melodious Drum can be done at the request of students.

The purpose of this practice is to remove obstacles and gather all favorable conditions for their spiritual practice.

About the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden

A Dharma Protector is an emanation of a Buddha or a Bodhisattva whose main functions are to avert the inner and outer obstacles that prevent practitioners from gaining spiritual realizations, and to arrange all the necessary conditions for their practice.

In Tibet, every monastery had its own Dharma Protector, but the tradition did not begin in Tibet; the Mahayanists of ancient India also relied upon Dharma Protectors to eliminate hindrances and to fulfil their spiritual wishes.

Though there are some worldly deities who are friendly towards Buddhism and who try to help practitioners, they are not real Dharma Protectors. Such worldly deities are able to increase the external wealth of practitioners and help them to succeed in their worldly activities, but they do not have the wisdom or the power to protect the development of Dharma within a practitioner’s mind.

It is this inner Dharma – the experiences of great compassion, bodhichitta, the wisdom realizing emptiness, and so forth – that is most important and that needs to be protected; outer conditions are of secondary importance.
Although their motivation is good, worldly deities lack wisdom and so sometimes the external help that they give actually interferes with the attainment of authentic Dharma realizations. If they have no Dharma realizations themselves, how can they be Dharma Protectors?

It is clear therefore that all actual Dharma Protectors must be emanations of Buddhas or Bodhisattvas. These Protectors have great power to protect Buddhadharma and its practitioners, but the extent to which we receive help from them depends upon our faith and conviction in them. To receive their full protection, we must rely upon them with continuous, unwavering devotion.

Buddhas have manifested in the form of various Dharma Protectors, such as Mahakala, Kalarupa, Kalindewi, and Dorje Shugden. From the time of Je Tsongkhapa until the first Panchen Lama, Losang Chökyi Gyaltsän, the principal Dharma Protector of Je Tsongkhapa’s lineage was Kalarupa. Later, however, it was felt by many high Lamas that Dorje Shugden had become the principal Dharma Protector of this tradition.

There is no difference in the compassion, wisdom, or power of the various Dharma Protectors, but because of the karma of sentient beings, one particular Dharma Protector will have a greater opportunity to help Dharma practitioners at any one particular time.

We can understand how this is so by considering the example of Buddha Shakyamuni. Previously the beings of this world had the karma to see Buddha Shakyamuni’s Supreme Emanation Body and to receive teachings directly from him.

These days, however, we do not have such karma, and so Buddha appears to us in the form of our Spiritual Guide and helps us by giving teachings and leading us on spiritual paths. Thus, the form that Buddha’s help takes varies according to our changing karma, but its essential nature remains the same.

Among all the Dharma Protectors, four-faced Mahakala, Kalarupa, and Dorje Shugden in particular have the same nature because they are all emanations of Manjushri.

However, the beings of this present time have a stronger karmic link with Dorje Shugden than with the other Dharma Protectors. It was for this reason that Morchen Dorjechang Kunga Lhundrup, a very highly realized Master of the Sakya tradition, told his disciples, “Now is the time to rely upon Dorje Shugden.” He said this on many occasions to encourage his disciples to develop faith in the practice of Dorje Shugden.

We too should heed his advice and take it to heart. He did not say that this is the time to rely upon other Dharma Protectors, but clearly stated that now is the time to rely upon Dorje Shugden. Many high Lamas of the Sakya tradition and many Sakya monasteries have relied sincerely upon Dorje Shugden.

In recent years the person most responsible for propagating the practice of Dorje Shugden was the late Trijang Dorjechang, the root Guru of many Gelugpa practitioners from humble novices to the highest Lamas. He encouraged all his disciples to rely upon Dorje Shugden and gave Dorje Shugdän empowerments many times.

Even in his old age, so as to prevent the practice of Dorje Shugdän from degenerating he wrote an extensive text entitled Symphony Delighting an Ocean of Conquerors, which is a commentary to Tagpo Kelsang Khädrub Rinpoche’s praise of Dorje Shugden called Infinite Aeons.

The Nature and Function of the Dharma Protector
Some people believe that Dorje Shugden is an emanation of Manjushri who shows the aspect of a worldly being, but this is incorrect. Even Dorje Shugden’s form reveals the complete stages of the path of Sutra and Tantra, and such qualities are not possessed by the forms of worldly beings.

Dorje Shugden appears as a fully ordained monk to show that the practice of pure moral discipline is essential for those who wish to attain enlightenment. In his left hand he holds a heart, which symbolizes great compassion and spontaneous great bliss – the essence of all the stages of the vast path of Sutra and Tantra.

His round yellow hat represents the view of Nagarjuna, and the wisdom sword in his right hand teaches us to sever ignorance, the root of samsara, with the sharp blade of Nagarjuna’s view. This is the essence of all the stages of the profound path of Sutra and Tantra.

Dorje Shugden rides a snow lion, the symbol of the four fearlessnesses of a Buddha, and has a jewel-spitting mongoose perched on his left arm, symbolizing his power to bestow wealth on those who put their trust in him. The single eye in the center of his forehead symbolizes his omniscient wisdom, which perceives directly and simultaneously all past, present, and future phenomena.

His wrathful expression indicates that he destroys ignorance, the real enemy of all living beings, by blessing them with great wisdom; and also that he destroys the obstacles of pure Dharma practitioners.

The Benefits of Relying Upon Dorje Shugden
If we can understand well the nature and functions of Dorje Shugden, we can understand the benefits of relying upon him. Dorje Shugden always helps, guides, and protects pure and faithful practitioners by granting blessings, increasing their wisdom, fulfilling their wishes, and bestowing success on all their virtuous activities.

Dorje Shugden does not help only Kadampas; because he is a Buddha he helps all living beings, including non-Buddhists. The sun benefits even those born blind, giving them warmth and ripening the crops that become their food; but should they gain their sight, how much more obvious its benefit would be!

In a similar way, although Dorje Shugden protects even those who do not make an effort to rely upon him, when our eyes of faith in him open and we rely upon him sincerely we will gradually become more aware of the help we receive from him.

If we sincerely wish to experience the benefits of relying upon Dorje Shugden, we must rely upon him constantly over a long period of time, steadily improving our connection with him. In this way, we will begin to notice his beneficial influence in our lives.

We should understand that the principal function of a Dharma Protector is to protect our Dharma practice, not to help our mundane affairs. Bearing this in mind we should not become discouraged if we do not suddenly become very wealthy, for wealth does not necessarily help spiritual practice and can be a great distraction.

If we rely sincerely upon Dorje Shugden, he will arrange the conditions that are most conducive for our Dharma practice but these will not necessarily be the ones that we ourself would have chosen! Dorje Shugden will bless our minds to help us transform difficult situations into the spiritual path, and he will open the wisdom eyes of his faithful followers, enabling them always to make the right decisions.

To learn more about Dorje Shugden see Heart Jewel by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso

Here's a link to a website containing the Dorje Shugden prayers. You will see that there is nothing sinister in there and certainly no mention that Dorje Shugden is higher than Buddha Shakyamuni.

[wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org]

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Lineageholder
$20,000 to progress on the path to enlightenment sounds like a good deal to me. People spend more than this on houses and cars that they have to leave behind with no lasting benefit. No money spent studying Dharma is ever wasted, unless, of course, you don't believe in the path to enlightenment or the benefit of these things in future lives, in which case a discussion on this subject is pointless.

$20,000 is outrageous! Churches don't charge, none of the Dharma centers I've been to charge or require members to buy books. What happens when people of very modest means and on a tight budget join? Are they even allowed to join? And notice the great sales pitch Lineageholder spews, to justify handing this fortune over to the center.

Tantric practice, Highest Yoga Tantra, normally isn't available to everyone who walks into the center or monastery. Of those who are chosen to receive the teachings and practice, many are told to practice by visualization, not with a consort. And they're chosen only after years of preliminary and preparatory study and practice. So the fact that in NKT it's literally an open book, and everyone can practice (oh, but it's not really sex, don't you know, because they don't ejaculate...) means that this practice is used as a recruitment tool, and it is a sex cult. Really not all that different from Diamond Way Buddhism, we've seen the signs before.

In "The Story of Tibet" the Dalai Lama in adamant that monastics practicing tantra with a consort is a sign of degeneracy of the tradition. Monastics are supposed to practice by visualization only. That doesn't jibe with your report, Lineageholder. Sounds like Geshe-la really knows how to draw a crowd.

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superscot
It's just my opinion, but I think the NKT just put HYT out there every 2 years at the summer festival in Manjushri centre to draw crowds and make money...the sex is a side effect, but the main issue there is mass conversion and empire building. People collect these 'initiations' like Pokemon cards!
Maybe they have a chip about being isolated from mainstream Tibetan society?

It's funny how one of the basic precepts in any Buddhist lineage is 'not to misuse sex' but then even celibate ordained people are requested to quicken their step on the path by the use of HYT which is basically visualising weird deities having sex!
Maybe I'm being simplistic here, but I left Tantric Buddhism because it was too complex and distracting from the original message...when you're visualising yourself as these deities , you're not really acquainting yourself with the mind, so maybe that explains the hypocrisy in it all. People haven't really dealt with their own internal mechanics, just masked it all with tantra, so the machinations of the mind can raise their 'ugly heads' again at any time with a vengeance.

Interesting take. Good post.

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Misstyk

Tantric practice, Highest Yoga Tantra, normally isn't available to everyone who walks into the center or monastery. Of those who are chosen to receive the teachings and practice, many are told to practice by visualization, not with a consort.....

Hi, I don't think you understand how Tantra is practised in the NKT. There is no sexual union. Anyone who engages in sexual activity claiming it to be Tantric practice is probably heavily deluded. It certainly doesn't happen in NKT.

The Ganden Oral Lineage tradition that was taught by Je Tsongkhapa explains how to achieve Tantric meditations using solitary meditation and visualization. Je Tsongkhapa himself never engaged in meditation with a consort - it simply wasn't necessary.

I know that sex scandals are glamorous (there are plenty in other Buddhist traditions) but apart from the actions of a few confused individuals in the past, there are none in the NKT today, and certainly not in the name of Tantra. You'll have to look elsewhere to find a sex cult.

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Lineageholder
Hi, I don't think you understand how Tantra is practised in the NKT. There is no sexual union. Anyone who engages in sexual activity claiming it to be Tantric practice is probably heavily deluded. It certainly doesn't happen in NKT.

This isn't what superscot says, if I understand him correctly. And it's not what a couple of teen members of NKT have said, with whom I've discussed this online.

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Lineageholder
The Ganden Oral Lineage tradition that was taught by Je Tsongkhapa explains how to achieve Tantric meditations using solitary meditation and visualization. Je Tsongkhapa himself never engaged in meditation with a consort - it simply wasn't necessary.

This is NKT's official line, but Tsongkhapa taught that consort practice was necessary in order to reach Enlightenment, even though he didn't practice it himself.