Ps: Forgot to mention all the superstition around the NKT.
You hear people explaining events in their recent life as having been influenced by Geshe la...'Geshela put that obstacle there for me so that I'd have to exercise patience' , 'Geshela knows what's in your heart' etc etc...

Just a couple of things that were said to me during my brief sojourn there, leaving aside all the speculation about whether aliens have visited! That one was a personal obsession of one of the ordained ....

The mindset is very passive for personal life events but seriously active on the evangelising and empire building front.
They're hoping to move Tharpaland up to the highlands of Scotland soon but don't need to sell the Tharpaland building first, so that's just the tip of the iceberg on their 'charitable fund'....

Quote
Misstyk
Is NKT a sex cult in thin disguise?

No, because Highest Yoga Tantra is not about sex. This is a common misunderstanding about Tantra.

Monks and nuns who are celibate practise Tantra because it's not about sex - it's a special quick path to enlightenment that is the very essence of Buddha's teachings. Anyone with who has true compassion will want to practise Tantra so that they can help all living beings as quickly as possible.

Geshe Kelsang has made Highest Yoga Tantra open to every one to practise, but it still requires an empowerment. Even though the instructions are available widely (probably because something that is secret is more attractive) they don't work unless you receive an empowerment, so the empowerment and instructions are given every couple of years. It's not for the purpose of making money, as Superscot would have us believe, but because it's an integral part of the Kadampa path. However, no one is introduced to Tantra against their will or too early. As the instructions are open (anyone can read a book), people decide for themselves whether they want to practise Tantra or not - there's no coercion and no pressure.

Hi 'Lineageholder'
I've a good notion of who you are.
I am living proof that people are introduced to Tantra unnecessarily. i never practised it at all till I was socially coerced into it on meeting the NKT. For 30 years beforehand I attended other Tibetan traditions' centres and nowhere was it expected of me. In the NKT it was an expectation, connected with the 'group mentality' that develops among the people who just want to 'belong'.
People egged each other on ...'will you be going to the empowerment?' , 'then there's the Fall festival...are you going to that?' 'Oh shame we won't see you, you'll be missing out. never mind, we will all be thinking of you'.

For those who know an illusionist from UK called Derren Brown, you may recognise the underlying pressure. If you don't know him, he's like the Penn and Teller of the Psychic world. He shows you how it's done.

If it's not about making money, why then are there a whole plethora of ritual objects, prayerbooks, textbooks, prints, CD's etc....not forgetting that for anyone who has had more than one book of GKG's, there is an awful lot of duplication. In his series of books, at least 1/3 of each book is given over to the repetition of the same 'Heart Jewel' prayers, etc, so you pay for same old , same old with each book.

For every 'empowerment' (and indeed what power do these things truly give) there is a rupa, a CD, a prayerbook (or more than 2 choices of prayer combinations if Heruka or Vajrayogini), photo cards and cloth covers for every book, lovingly (and foolishly) made by individuals that then get sold in the Dharma Shop. People compete to buy as many of these unnecessary objects as they can, to give away, donate to the merit shop (a second hand charity shop open onsite).
Buddha would be roaring with laughter! He advocated leaving all these 'needs' behind, not desperately collecting the whole set, whether it be an empowerment or a ritual object!

So Lineage holder, if one has had the Heruka and Vajrayogini empowerments, there is no need to do any more as all practices are supposed to be contained within these.
Does that mean you won't be needing to attend any more get togethers?
I know some poor fools who have attended 3 years of FP doing the Joyful Path (£1092 per year and £3276 over the 3 year period) That's for 1 book! ....then they did it twice more! They proclaim with great pride in FP's that it's the third time they are studying this book...
It takes roughly 15 years to do all the books recommended for TTP training. That's £16,380 around $20,000! ~Add on the festivals....and it's not about money of course!

Hi superscot,

Your cynicism says that Kadampa Buddhism is not for you - fair enough, I hope you find a spiritual path that does suit you. So you want to study the Pali Canon and so forth - great! That doesn't mean that Tantra is not a valid spiritual path just because you have no faith in it.

No one put a gun against your head and made you attend an empowerment. If you perceive peer pressure, such 'pressure' which is nothing more than a subjective perception is everywhere. You friend gets a new iphone, you feel like you need to get one, etc, so your attempt to label NKT as an exclusive source of peer pressure is not very credible. Peer pressure is a common human experience in every walk of life.

As for money, it's impossible to do anything in this world without having it and having to spend it. NKT doesn't exist for the sake of money, but money is inevitably needed as there are expenses in this world - for example, if you want to hire a venue to hold talks, people don't give you these things for free! It's not unreasonable to charge for books, prayer books and so forth as these things cost money to produce and it doesn't grow on trees. Every penny of profit from these sales goes into building Temples and centres for public benefit, not to line some individual's pockets.

I think that's fair. Everything is for public benefit.

$20,000 to progress on the path to enlightenment sounds like a good deal to me. People spend more than this on houses and cars that they have to leave behind with no lasting benefit. No money spent studying Dharma is ever wasted, unless, of course, you don't believe in the path to enlightenment or the benefit of these things in future lives, in which case a discussion on this subject is pointless.

Oh poor lineage holder.
You just don't get it do you.
Everything is for public benefit, but only if they walk inside the door of a Kadampa temple.
Money accrued by the ton, temples built by the shed load 'for the benefit of the public'.
Same mentality of the Evangelical Christian...convert as many as possible (quantity over quality).

Of course you won't know anything about this, lineageholder, but in the Thai Forest Sangha for example,, books are printed using donations, distributed FREE OF CHARGE to anyone who wants to read them , on condition that they are NOT RESOLD for individual profit.

And yes, yes, I know that nobody in the NKT sees any individual profit, they just work themselves to death collecting for the neverending building fund...a self serving community of kadampa hotels, cafes etc etc (yawn)

Of course NKT is not for me...why else would I be on this forum?
More to the point, why are you here? If you are happy with NKT, then fine, but why are you wasting your time in 'meaningless activity' on this forum when Geshela wants you offering alcohol to Dorje Shugden?

PS: public benefit for me would include the distrubution of food and shelter to the homeless or aid for the sick, not taking money from people.
Your style of argument is the usual format for the NKT and easily transparent as this particular mindset.

Oh forgot to say, why aren't you challenging the statements I made about people's belief inside NKT that Geshela is omniscient? That he is the one testing followers' abilities to utilise Dharma by procuring particular experiences?

Or maybe you have something to say about the BBC documentary 'an unholy row' where Geshela says clearly on camera 'well what about it if they want to see me as Buddha? What's wrong with that?'

Well Lineage holder, what IS wrong with that?

Hi superscot,

I think you've missed the point of the International Temples Project. Seeing holy objects is for public benefit and thousands of people visit Kadampa Temples every year. It's not about converting anyone as most of those people are non-Buddhists and will remain so and Kadampa Temples and centres are open to everyone. There are plenty of charities that are caring for the physical needs of people, but very few charities are trying to give inner peace to others in this and future lives. I think this is of more benefit.

Yes, believe it or not, there are people in this world who simply care about the welfare of others without any ulterior motive. I can't blame you for being cynical, though.

As you probably know, it's traditional in Mahayana Buddhism to try to see your Spiritual Guide as a Buddha because, if you do, you will receive the blessings of a Buddha and make faster spiritual progress. I think it's unskilful to publicly espouse the view that your Teacher is a Buddha because it leads to a lot of misunderstanding, but there's nothing wrong with the view, it's standard Mahayana Buddhism. It should be kept as something personal.

You're following a different tradition of Buddhism that doesn't espouse that, so fair enough - you follow your tradition and I'll follow mine. Bickering over doctrinal differences never helped anyone.

Ok then...so why are you here? Defending your lineage then?
Geshela himself wrote an email to his followers years ago asking them not to engage in 'meaningless activities' over the internet.

This is a forum for people like me....use your own forums.
And, in case you care, I don't think that the average person looking around a kadampa temple gets any blessings, as the world is created by the mind , these blessings are also thus, so non Buddhists will not benefit. It will be an exercise of idle curiosity.

Begs the question...if nobody comes to see such a temple, then who benefits? (apologies for using the well known notion of the tree falling in the forest!).Or is there some revenue to be had , or grants/funding?

But what is all this money you collect doing? You produce no free books of Dharma for sincere students, your ordained people are not different to ordinary people except for the mindset and an accountant friend of mine put it succunctly...'it's just a building fund' he said. And that's what it is.

I'm here for the same reason that you are....because I want to be. We both have an equal right to be here.

I think it's reasonable for people to hear both sides of an argument. What's the point of a forum where people are allowed to bitch on about spiritual traditions without being able to consider the counterarguments? That's indoctrination.

The point of building a Temple is to benefit all living beings. Even if no human beings came to a Temple, the birds, insects and animals receive blessings from seeing it and imprints for future higher rebirths. All living beings should benefit, not just humans.

Of course the International Temples Project is a building fund, but Temples are not ordinary buildings. They are the source of Dharma medicine in this world so they function like spiritual hospitals. If even seeing one is beneficial, what can be said about attending classes there and receiving Dharma wisdom directly? There's nothing more important in this world imho.

' The point of building Kadampa temples is to benefit all living beings'..

Have you heard yourself? At what point did a normal person with common sense escape through your fontanelle?
Pretentious rubbish, NKT is full of that.

Oddly enough, you haven't answered the statement I made that people within NKT are going about with the notion that Geshe is omniscient and has the ability to put experiences in people's lives in order to 'advance them on the path'.

I could name the people who talk this way in the centres I've been to, (and there are many such people) but that would be unkind.

Also, there are many poor animals needing help. I know Buddhist monastics who look after injured or abused animals before releasing them into the wild. There are videos depicting this on the internet as well.

You are in a website that discusses cults. Thanks to the excellent mental powers of Rick Ross,Corboy, Tenzin et al, we already have a definition of a cult.

One of the aspects of one is blind faith in an individual as a higher being. Another is the making of followers into 'work units', earning units etc...

It was only when I cancelled my direct debit that there was a fuss at the centre and I had various mails asking whether I'd 'made a mistake'.

As for indoctrination, that's evident in the NKT....Geshelas books are supposed to be commentaries on the originals. Why not use the originals and save all those trees for the birds?
If you take a look at identical prayers from NKT, Gelug, Kagyu etc, you'll see that they are roughly the same translations, yet it's only Geshela's translations which are allowed.

But, (and this is one I wonder whether you'll answer or not...), there are lines in the Wish Fulfilling Jewel prayers which state that Dorje Shugden is higher than Buddha.

As Buddhism is named after the historical Buddha Shakyamuni, that it heresy, pure and simple. Thankfully I burned those prayers.

So Lineage holder, you still like spending your time defending an omniscient being who should not need your defence, on a site which starts with the word 'Cult'. Have you nothing else to do? I have, and intend to get on with that. Should you feel the irresistible urge to snipe back, you'll have no reply from me as I left your mindset behind long ago.