Oh how wonderful to be able to make all the vows!
I'd so love to do that too. I'm full of admiration for you!
I'll be looking at the commentary and would be very happy with the PDF.
The next step is to find a tradition which will support me in the process, so I'll be looking around.

I've sent you an email ... love t
Yes; keep looking around!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2011 05:47AM by Tenzin Peljor.

I have some comment to make on the NKT.

There are two true marks that distinguish a cult in my opinion. The first is that they teach you to mistrust or distance yourself from your parents. In Buddhism that is completely wrong. This is a part of mistrusting and isolating from people outside the cult. It is not clear that the NKT tries to turn followers against parents, but it is isolationist with regard to outsiders.

The second is that they proclaim their teacher to be above all teachers and do not invite other teachers or teachers that are more senior than him/her. In Buddhism, the teacher always has an 'uplink', unless they are very old and all the great teachers of their tradition have passed away. Even then, teachers always suggest that students visit and listen to prominent visiting teachers, and often invite them to temples.

It should be made clear that the mainstream traditions of Tibetan Buddhism, Gelugpa, Kagyu, Sakya, Gelug and Jonang, have ALL condemned the NKT and told their students to have no association with it. I have been directly told this by many great and respected teachers in these traditions. They say that while the average student is naive and well-intentioned, the leaders are not.

The NKT is strongly derived from the spiritual tradition of Pabonka Rinpoche (1878–1941). His lineage is also to be found strongly in the FPMT, though it should be clear that I am not in any way criticising the FPMT, and as well that the FPMT is completely accepted and supported by othe Buddhist leaders of all traditions.. The FPMT denies that he was sectarian, but teachers such as Namkhai Norbu and Kagyu and Nyingmapa leaders especially, say that on the contrary there were many incidences of persecution, sectarianism and intolerance. The Dalai Lama's junior tutor when he was young, Trijang Rinpoche, was a student of Pabongka Rinpoche but was replaced by HH Dalai Lama when the Dalai Lama left Tibet. Some of my teachers have represented Pabongka Rinpoche as a good and wise teacher who was corrupted and destroyed by his unwise worship of a destructive deity.

Some years ago I read a report online by Amnesty International about the Dalai Lama/NKT dispute, perhaps it may still be found online. This does not only relate to the NKT, but to all followers of a meditation deity which is the main one endorsed and followed by the NKT. The decision was that although the Dalai Lama had perhaps suppressed religious freedom and acted unwisely with regard to followers of the deity involved, no violence had been committed against them whereas it was clear that the followers of that deity had committed acts of violence and perhaps assassination.

The Wikipedia entries on Pabongka Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche and related matters, appear to be very one-sided and, morever, criticise the 5th and present Dalai lamas strongly. It should be realised that all mainstream traditions accept, respect and revere the Dalai Lama, while at times respectfully disagreeing with him. It seems to me that these entries are monitored and kept one-sided deliberately.

When I meet representatives of the NKT, I do not like their vibe. They hold to themselves and have no involvement with other Buddhist organisations.

Myself personally I would never join or study with this organisation.

You're right Thomas, sectarianism has no place in today's world. The NKT are so isolated now that when Gesh Kelsang dies, it will likely be a free for all with loads of factions putting forward their own ideas.

Still looking around...

Hi Thomas, the Wikipedia entries have been taken over by NKT editors around April 2008 before the NKT via Western Shugden Society started their new campaign against the Dalai Lama. I wrote something about this here: [thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com]

The AI statement can be found here:
[www.amnesty.org]

Hi Thomas,

With respect, I feel your post contains some misunderstandings about the NKT. It's not true that the NKT is 'isolationist' because Geshe Kelsang and his students have been rejected by certain Tibetan Buddhist Teachers and traditions. For example, when the NKT joined the Network of Buddhist Organizations (NBO), many Tibetan Buddhist groups chose to leave because NKT was admitted. This is clearly sectarianism, but it is generally the NKT that is accused of as being sectarian.

The main reason why NKT is isolated, if you want to think of it in that way, is because of the Dorje Shugden issue. The Dalai Lama has ostracised all those who are practising this Deity, including the NKT. Many of the Dalai Lama's followers are indeed angry that Geshe Kelsang has opposed the Dalai Lama on this issue, but it's one of free speech and religious freedom. The Dalai Lama's reasons for banning this centuries-old Deity practice are weak at best and wrong at worst, but that's another issue! It's a perplexing matter, but it's caused a lot of animosity and bad feeling in the Tibetan Buddhist world. Arguably, if the Dalai Lama hadn't rejected the practice in 1976 and banned it in 1996, there wouldn't be a problem between NKT and Tibetan Buddhist organizations these days, so who is really responsible for the schism that has developed in the Buddhist world?

Je Pabongkhapa was neither 'corrupted nor destroyed'. There is ample evidence from his life story that he was the living Buddha Heruka. What happened is that some lamas, due to jealousy about his power and popularity as a Teacher, began to spread rumours about him destroying Nyingma monasteries and so forth. Je Pabongkhapa himself is completely blameless. As it says in his biography on Wikipedia, he disliked politics, but unfortunately some Tibetan lamas do use Dharma for political purposes, and this is the cause of this misinformation about Je Pabongkhapa's life. Politics is always the root of division in issues such as this and the Dorje Shugden problem.

In your comments regardingthe statement by Amnesty International regarding the persecution of Dorje Shugden practitioners, you say:

Quote

The decision was that although the Dalai Lama had perhaps suppressed religious freedom and acted unwisely with regard to followers of the deity involved, no violence had been committed against them whereas it was clear that the followers of that deity had committed acts of violence and perhaps assassination.

No such statement was made by AI. Rather, they said that they could not become involved in a debate regarding spiritual matters. All the AI statement says is

Quote

None of the material AI has received contains evidence of abuses which fall within Al's mandate for action — such as grave violations of fundamental human rights including torture, the death penalty, extra-judicial executions, arbitrary detention or imprisonment, or unfair trials.

In other words, because Dorje Shugden practitioners have not been tortured or imprisoned, complaints of restriction of religious freedom and human rights are not severe enough to fall under their remit. You will notice that they do not deny that such abuses have taken place, nor have their said (as implied by your words) ' it was clear that the followers of that deity had committed acts of violence and perhaps assassination.'

Please don't put words into Amnesty International's 'mouth' that castigate Dorje Shugden practitioners inaccurately. Thank you.

The text is here:

[www.friendsoftibet.org]

All the best.

Oh that didn't take long. Obviously there wasn't anything on Wikipedia worth altering today.
Personally, I don't mind Geshe Kelsang's books and stuff. They're ok at face value, but it's the social culture inside the organisation, the shallow expansion with little substance behind the basic teachings and the aggressive legal posturing that lets it down.

Quote
Lineageholder
You will notice that they do not deny that such abuses have taken place, nor have their said (as implied by your words) ' it was clear that the followers of that deity had committed acts of violence and perhaps assassination.'

No such statement was made by AI.

AI responded to the allegations of the NKT via Dorje Shugden Supporter Community, and a handful of Tibetans, like Kundeling. To them AI replied "None of the material AI has received contains evidence of abuses which fall within Al's mandate for action — such as grave violations of fundamental human rights including torture, the death penalty, extra-judicial executions, arbitrary detention or imprisonment, or unfair trials."

AI's investigation was not to judge if followers of that deity had committed acts of violence and perhaps assassination hence they do not say anything about this. Also AI do neither deny nor approve any type of "abuse", they just say what they say. If you wish to conclude from saying nothing about something (e.g. 'minor types of abuse') that this would consist "not deny that such [unspoken] abuses" it follows Khyenrab wears his shoes on his head because NKT didn't deny that he does.

Just for the record the Indian Chief police and the Indian police accuse Shugden practitioners to have assassinated Lobsang Gyatso, and they have enough evidence for this (e.g. phone recordings, the bag which was grasped by the dying Gen Lobsang Gyatso from one of the murders which was full of Shugden material.) Similar vicious was the conspiration of persons in the Labrang of Trijang Chogtrul Rinpoche who planned to murder his assistant for the sake to blame afterwards the Dalai Lama. It was Trijang Chogtrul Rinpoche himself who heard from this plan when accidental listening to a phone call, and it was he who made this public via Dharamsala radio.

I do not say this to blame, ashame or to put down DS practitioners but if you love the truth, and if you wish to speak the truth here, you will be open for facts which might contradict your own views or arguments. However, we can skip the point to continue this discussion about DS except you wish reliable sources for what I have said here.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2011 03:32AM by Tenzin Peljor.

Earlier in this thread it was mentioned (several times) that the Yahoo Group "New Kadampa Survivors" doesn't allow positive comments about NKT. I don't find that to be true at all. I have spent countless hours reading the forum posts, and plenty of positive memories are discussed. In fact, the confusion the ex-NKT people feel at having both positive and negative feelings of their experience is a frequent topic.

Dear Tenzin Peljor - la,

Thank you for sending the PDF of the vows.

I can't help roaring with laughter when after I emailed you and asked whether the deities of Tibetan Buddhism, ie Chenrezi, Manjushri et al were seen as actual deities to be worshipped or aspects of mind to be understood, I had no reply from you.

On emailing you again to say that I have thought over it and decided to go back to my Theravadin roots, you reply 'excellent'.

So it's not just the NKT who cannot take honest debate, but Tibetan Buddhism in general? Or am I mistaken?

As it has been said 'outwardly practise Theravada, inwardly practise Mahayana, secretly practise Vajrayana'.
Anything done in secret has undertones of shame in it, so maybe there is shame because a multiplicity of deities are indeed being worshipped and this is giving rise to some degree of Cognitive Dissonance in the western disciples.

Maybe that plus the overlay of Bon and Hinduism right enough.

I'm going back to the simplicity of the Dhammapada and the original Pali texts.

Thank you Tenzin Peljor, your silence spoke volumes!