...and, of course: has any of Ole's Tibetan teachers ever publicly confirmed that Ole is qualified to give initiations?

My glum opinion:

So long as hard currency from the West arrives, the Tibetans will never give a clear answer.

If, and this is a very big if, someone behaved in a way that threatened to bring all of Tibetan Buddhism into disrepute, and led to heavy inquiries and pressure from the Indian government and from nations from which most disciples and revenue come from, then and only then and maybe, we'd get an unambiguous answer that X is not qualified to give initiations.

Go to the website xe.com for currency conversions. I checked a day or two ago, and one US dollar equalled 49 indian rupees. (Thats higher than it was just a few years ago-for a long time, one US dollar equalled about 38 to 44 indian rupees.)

Hi Corboy,

Quote
corboy
So long as hard currency from the West arrives, the Tibetans will never give a clear answer.

agreed. Sad, but that's certainly true for most of the tibetan socalled "Rinpoches". Which is why I would take it that "not a clear answer" in this case means "no". And which is also why I asked if somebody gave it a clear "yes" - which I seriously doubt, btw, and even if, the question would remain, what to think of it.

Nevertheless though, my questions remain open. If Ole Nydahl secretly gives tantric initiations this point should be documented here because this matter is highly questionable - to put it mildly.

Best wishes,

Oma Desala

It's common in Tibetan Buddhism that the details of what goes on in tantric initiations is secret, no one is to speak about it. However, for a teacher to hide the fact that he gives tantric initiations at all, that, I think, is unusual.

I thought that Shamar Rinpoche had a statement on his website saying Ole never completed the requirements to qualify as a teacher ("lama") or Rinpoche. I don't know if that statement is still on his website, I was told he had to remove some of his statements about Ole after Ole threatened him with a lawsuit. So if he's not qualified to call himself "Lama" Ole Nydahl, certainly he's not qualified to give tantric initiations. I wouldn't be surprised if these "initiations" are not in keeping with tradition, but are simply his own inventions, another excuse to take advantage of women.

Quote
Misstyk
I thought that Shamar Rinpoche had a statement on his website saying Ole never completed the requirements to qualify as a teacher ("lama") or Rinpoche. I don't know if that statement is still on his website, I was told he had to remove some of his statements about Ole after Ole threatened him with a lawsuit.

Really? This would be complete news to me. Shamar Rinpoche revoking the title of a lama from Ole Nydahl would be a big surprise to me, since it was Shamar Rinpoche who bestowed that title on him in the first place. Indeed I very clearly remember that in some public talks and meditation courses I took with Shamar Rinpoche a couple of years ago he quite frequently stated that "Ole is a good lama". Whatever that may mean - for I'm quite sure when Tibetans call somebody a "good lama" this has to be taken with a big caveat. Nevertheless for me one of the main reasons why I decided not to trust Shamar Rinpoche.

Or did you mean these statements he made about Ole Nydahl which he deleted after Nydahl threatened him with a lawsuit:

[forum.culteducation.com]

This is a quick offer; there is a discussion within another thread, by a quite different group, describing the effects of doing heavy chanting.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Interested persons may read it and ponder if the chanting and visualizations done in Vajrayana might also have a similar effect.

One person in the discussion of Sokka Gokkai was not only trying to overcome the effects of the chanting (it can suppress valid anger and misgivings, and make people more suggestible )..the person who wanted to leave feared that remaining members would 'chant' for him.

This may echo concerns people have when piously informed that they will be prayed for and have tonglen done on their behalf.

Ick.

Back to Ole.

Since lots of chanting and visualization is done throughout TB and at all levels, from poor people chanting on malas, to the hundreds of thousands of prostrations done by pilgrims to the huge numbers of prostrations and visualizations prescribed for Ngondro, one wonders whether all this can leave many practitioners unable to notice inconsistencies between Buddhist moral precepts and how many high lamas violate precepts.

I don't think Shamar approves of Ole. And Shamar couldn't have given Ole the title of "Lama", as Shamar was only a teenager when Ole was studying with the Karmapa, and I'm pretty sure he said himself on his website that Ole hadn't completed the required retreat to earn the designation "lama". Elsewhere in this thread, someone says that Ole gave himself the title of Lama after the 16th Karmapa died.

Shamar also posts on his website his views of teaching Vajrayana in general; he believes it's not appropriate for Westerners or Tibetans in our current age. For this reason, he's established "Bodhi Path Centers" that avoid most Vajrayana teachings. This, to my mind, also speaks of his attitude toward Ole's teachings. I really find it hard to believe that Shamar is saying that Ole is a "good Lama", unless maybe he's been scared into praising Ole if queried about him. I suppose it's pointless to argue about what Shamar has or hasn't said, or what he means, etc., since none of us can really know for sure what he's thinking.

Guys, please don't get me wrong when I'm saying this. Since I'm quite new to this forum I feel the necessity to clarify my standpoint before I continue: It is not my intention to defend Ole Nydahl. I do not approve of his teachings. Many of the teachings he gives are incorrect. Many of his political statements are unacceptable. In his centres there is a lot of manipulation, brainwashing and cultish behaviour going on. IMO it would be much, much better if the Tibetan lamas would finally kick him out of their lineage.

But as to the title of a lama and Shamar Rinpoche's approval of Ole Nydahl as a "Buddhist Master" or lama it is important to stay true to the facts, if we like them or not. With which I am not saying that I agree with Shamar Rinpoche. And besides there is a letter of clarification by Shamar Rinpoche from 2006 which indirectly also implies some criticism.

Here's a link to an overview page of Ole Nydahls credentials on his German homepage:

Credentials overview German

I don't know if there is a corresponding overview page in English, but it doesn't really matter because the linked documents are all in English.

Among them are

- a letter by Shamar Rinpoche from 1983 in which he certifies that Ole Nydahl is an appointed Buddhist Master and that he transmits the blessing and activity of the Karma Kagyu Lineage: Letter Shamarpa 1983

- a certificate issued by Khenpo Chodrak "regarding Lama Ole Nydahl" in which Khenpo Chodrak states among others that all criticism of Ole Nydahl's teachings and behaviour by others are motivated solely by jealousy. He also states he has checked Ole Nydahls teachings from recordings and has not found anything not in accordance with the teachings of the Buddha: Certificate Khenpo Chodrak 1995 IMO this "certificate" is absolutely scandalous. It was obviously written at the height of the Karmapa Controversy. IMO this was very clearly politically motivated. Meanwhile there's quite a few teachings by Khenpo Chodrak on the web in which he indirectly very fervently criticizes a lot of Ole Nydahls teachings. So obviously he must have changed his mind as to the correctness of Ole Nydahl's teachings.

- another letter by Shamar Rinpoche from 2006 in which he clarifies "the title of 'Lama' for Lama Ole Nydahl": Letter Shamarpa 2006 In this letter he confirms that Ole Nydahl is a lama. But he also relativizes the meaning of this title: he says "the name lama means Buddhist teacher". And he also states that "there are many 'lamas' in the Himalayan countries who have done more religious practice than Lama Ole, and many who have done much less."

IMO the most important thing about this letter from 2006 is what is not written there. First of all, the title of a lama means "Buddhist teacher". This implies that it does not mean "enlightened master". Since Ole acts as if he was an enlightened master, this is indirectly (if you understand the Tibetan style and know how to read between the lines) a refutation of Ole Nydahls claim to be enlightened. The other point is that Shamarpa states about Nydahl that many lamas have done more religious practice, many have done less. - This means that compared to Lamas from Himalayan countries Ole Nydahl is just an average lama/meditation teacher.

If you have ever visited the Himalayan region, you'll know that the title of a lama is used so inflationary there that it is practically meaningless. I have even met "lamas" there who didn't know how often the syllable "ha" is repeated in the Vajrasattva-Mantra. This is comparable to a Roman-Catholic "Priest" not knowing the Lord's Prayer. We would clearly say this man is a pretender. And yet nobody there had any problem to refer to this person as a "lama". If you put this under consideration Shamar Rinpoche's letter stating that Ole Nydahl is not an enlightened master but just an average Buddhist teacher is rather a knockdown.

Nevertheless it was Shamar Rinpoche who gave Ole Nydahl the title of a lama. And it appears to me that as long as it was useful for Shamarpa that Western students misunderstood this as a confirmation of Ole Nydahl's purported enlightenment Shamarpa didn't bother to clarify this misunderstanding. He needed Ole Nydahl as an ally in the Karmapa controversy. Even now Shamar Rinpoche remains very ambiguous in his statements about Ole Nydahl. And yes, I have personally heard him call Ole Nydahl "a good lama" about half a dozen times on different occasions. I remember that very well because everytime he said that it felt as if he was kicking me in the stomach.

Best wishes,

Oma Desala

Hi Oma Desala,

one minor correction: Nydahl doesn't claim to be enlightened, he "only" claims to be liberated. However, many of his pupils think he is just to modest to say he is enlightened.

This is true. Nydahl claims to be 'liberated' and not enlightened. He often says that once liberation is attained one no longer experiences being the 'target' of ill feeling and criticism.

He certainly behaved like he was a target after Shamarpa's comments on his teaching tantra.