suenam:

Valontin violated the rules.

His last post was a very long sermon about what his beliefs, it was preaching.

Preaching is against the rules, regardless of religious group.

This thread will not be used for propaganda or indoctrination purposes.

Quote
rrmoderator
His last post was a very long sermon about what his beliefs, it was preaching.

What is your definition of preaching..?

BuddhaHippie:

"Preaching" is self-evident.

Valotin attempted to do this pretty much continuously, and it became both redundant and increasingly evident.

If you have come here to the same you will also be quickly banned from the board.

BuddhaHippie has been banned from this board.

Looks like Ole fans are attempting to overwhelm this thread.

Some Resources to Protect This Discussion Thread from Disruption

This 'rapid response team' approach to dissent seems a recurring feature among Diamond Way fans.

Mr Ross has noted this three times.

[forum.culteducation.com]

rrmoderator wrote:

February 01, 2009 02:05PM

Quote

BuddhaHippie has been banned from this board.
Looks like Ole fans are attempting to overwhelm this thread.

January 27, 2009 02:05PM

[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote

darren C:

Your last post bordered on a personal attack, which is against the rules of this board.

This thread is beginning to seem like a destination for Lama Ole fans

December 19, 2008 07:52PM

[forum.culteducation.com]

rrmoderator wrote:

Quote

To whom it may concern:

There are supporters of "Diamond Way" that seem to be attempting to overwhelm this thread.

Please understand that rants, personal attacks and repeated posts will not be approved and appear.

Also, if this type of posting continues those responsible will be banned from the board per the rules.

David Wong, gives us some perspective in his article
Five Ways to Stop Trolls from Killing the Internet

[www.cracked.com]

Quote

"Right now if you have a blog or forum or anything else with open comments, and you don't have a human moderator to watch it, you're going to wind up with a wasteland.

"As soon as more than one troll shows up, they will feed off each other until everyone else is gone. You have to control them.

"And don't start talking about free speech; the troll's goal is to shut down speech, to either fill the channel with noise until no one can talk to each other, or to get everyone talking about him instead of the subject at hand. He's a guy in a coffee shop screaming nonsense over a bullhorn."

In this case, 'the subject at hand' is the DW.

Since this discussion is attracting so many disruptive visitors, here is some additional reading matter on trolls:

Beware the Troll

[www.teamtechnology.co.uk]

A much more specific article on Troll Tactics

[www.teamtechnology.co.uk]

**This is epecially important for those of us on RR.com using the Private Message (PM) system. Someone may try to game you through the PM system.

Dont fall for it

Here are just one or two items
from the list:

Tactical Trolls

Quote


They engage in off list email dialogues to gain the confidence and trust of influential individuals on the list.

They are friendly and humorous in the posts, to put you at ease with their persona.

They have a well-thought-through story such that the persona seems to be very real. They will give apparently personal and intimate information, particularly in off list emails.

They win trust by giving trust. For example, they may hint at something confidential on-list, but then only reveal the full story to someone off-list. By bringing someone into their confidence, they create a feeling of confidence towards them by the individual's concerned

In off-list emails, (eg which correspond to RR.coms PM)they use techniques borrowed from NLP and Speed-Seduction to make people have a great deal of affection for them. This naturally suppresses any suspicion there might be.

They use gimmicks that win sympathy and bring out the 'nurturing parent' in other list members, which also suppresses any feelings of suspicion. E.g.: being blind, handicapped, an orphan, rejected, bullied etc..

They use language that is carefully constructed to be subtly invidious. This language is designed to identify two or more separate groups of people, and encourage list members to identify the negative traits of those groups. This creates argument and dissent between list members. Note that subtlety is often their main objective, so this language is difficult to spot.

They don't enter into the argument directly, but facilitate an argument between list members, e.g.: by highlighting points that one list member has made, perhaps in a way that is more confrontational than the original intention.

They sometimes create a fictitious persona supported by a web-site, photographs and apparently personal data.

Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2009 11:20PM by corboy.

The Ole Thread has Needed Moderator Protection

From August 16 2008 to February 1st to 2009, by my rough estimate and use of the search function, on the Ole/Diamond Way thread the moderator has had to protect the discussion boundaries by issuing 22 posts.

The messages range from reminders to stay within terms of use, admonitions to refrain from preaching and announcements that some persons have been banned.

This has demonstrated that it has required an exceptional amount of oversight from the moderator--an indication that this thread is a much needed sanctuary.

And to cut off anyone who accuses Mr Ross of being harsh, he devoted 7 posts to dialoguing with Valontin.

Then Mr Ross devoted 2 more posts telling Buddhahippie and Suenam why Valontin had been banned.

That is a lot of energy for just one thread, out of all the ongoing discussion threads on this board.

And...it doesnt cost anything to register here on RR.com

Valontin registered for free and got a great deal of individual attention from Mr Ross.

V got all that attention, for free---from a very busy man.

And Valontin was allowed to stay on RR.com since November 10th, and only was banned on Feb 1st despite V's refusing to abide by the terms of use he'd had signed as a condition of registering to participate on the RR.com message board.

Remember, Rick offers this board for free. And puts up with a lot of aggravation before he bans someone.

Which is more than can be said for the groups and organizations and leaders who are under discussion here.

If they had that kind of courtesy and patience and capacity to tolerate dissent, people like Outsider and cybertao and Emma C would not desire to come here to RR.com and would not have continued to support the Ole thread, despite the efforts so many have made to turn the Ole thread into a hangout for school yard bullies.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2009 12:15AM by corboy.

been off the forum for a while. Thanks for this link, outsider.

quite incriminating as anyone will understand who read Ole's own internal message to sangas some while ago that he had agreed (probably under pressure from the Karmapa) to stop secreting all that hate speech of his againt Islam.

At the time he reiterated how right he was in everything he said and did, but that now, he would finally stop talking about "politics". And yet here he goes again -- Allah makes believers criminal, "mainstream Muslims" kill Sufis, and we must be afraid of all those dark people who make so many children.

Mainstream Muslims don't kill anyone. Muslims Extremists, if you like, but not mainstream. This is hate speech criminalizing everyone who is a muslim.

And actually, I've been with the Sufis in Irak, no-one killing them or complaining about killings, although just about everyone else was getting killed.
Even when the insurgency was at it's most horrible, Sufi lore was in a perverted way an inspiration for both shia and sunni fighters - although sufis teach love, they also claim to perform magic, making them invulnerable or invincible. Many fighters went for that hocuspocus. Sufi masters were in great demand.

Anyhow, Ole is now too powerful to listen to any authority. What would the Karmapa do without him and the millions of Euros DW collects? Where would the influential german buddhist union be without DW? Ole-ists must be a majority of all "Buddhists" in Germany now. Behind all that smiling and easygoing way, look for brutal political power play of DW whenever there is an attempt to act against it. Last time they got criticised by the german buddhist union, they just threatened they'd split and found their own. DBU capitulated out of sheer fear.


Boris

Hi
This is my first post in this Ole Nydahl and Diamondway forum.

After reading all previous post (some i skim through) I thought how to deal with the Diamondway phenomenon?
What is it that perturbs us really most?
Is it the person as such, or is it because of Ole Nydahl`s tangential superficial Dharma interpretation?
I go for the last option.

Question for the moderators, is it in accordance with the rules and regulations of this forum, to fathom the difference between Diamondway teachings and Karma Kagdyu doctrine, in order to expose the difference of both interpretations and to validate?
Because Diamondway asserts to teach and practice authentic Karma Kagdyu School doctrine.
I think this is the real crux in the matter.

Thanks a lot!

Dave

P.S. And we have no other means to discuss this with Ole directly in a meaningful way without risking the discussion will be blocked, or opponents will risk to be precluded.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2009 06:16PM by Dave.

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And we have no other means to discuss this with Ole directly in a meaningful way without risking the discussion will be blocked, or opponents will risk to be precluded.

Seems to me that if 'we have no other means to discuss this with Ole' that alone is enough to signal that you are in a situation that cannot support your practice.

If one isnt free to speak directly with a teacher whom one is supporting financially and to whom one bows, that just reduces you to the level of a child or despised slave.

Even if someone's lineage credentials are impeccable and ( I am speaking hypotheticaly here) even if the teacher was endorsed by HHDL himself, and could raise the dead, if troubling things are being done and 'discussion is blocked' and one cannot discuss this with the teacher directly, that sounds like an atmosphere driven by afflictive emotion, where one will be tense and tight inside.

An environment like this cannot support your practice. You will feel too tight and tense inside.

Authentic lineage credentials cannot by themselves guarantee whether a teacher is capable of supporting practice or is actually living by the Bodhisattva Precepts. One cant just submit to a teacher by trusting that because the teacher is an authentic lineage holder that everything he does is automatically the right thing.

Chogyam Trungpa was considered part of an authentic lineage, yet he generated many many problems with alcohol, sex and power.

(For more, read the memoir The Double Mirror by Stephen Butterfield--written by a faithful Buddhist practitioner and student of Trungpas, who regretted how he himself kept silent too many times about situations that he considered dishonest and hurtful. Butterfield stated he loved the practices, saw even his health benefit in unexpected ways. He considered Trungpa to be teaching authentically. Yet to his great sadness, Butterfield reported that there were too many abuses of power, and he looked back and regretted how he himself failed to speak up. Interestingly, Butterfield did not indicate that Trungpa gave much attention to the Bodhisattva Precepts,which are and should be foundational for any Mahayana Buddhist, no matter what stage of practice they have reached)

So authenticity of lineage is not by itself a guarantee that a teacher will be alright.

When one's mind and emotions are constricted by being unable to discuss important matters freely and direclty, this will undermine your practice, period.

No need to ask about lineage matters in this case. Fretting about lineage matters will just be a distraction from examining the effects of this situation on your own ability to practice.

Being 'unable to discuss this directly' and 'having discussions blocked' has the effect of turning adults into frightened children.

One cant practice or be kind to one another in such conditions.

One doesnt have to have a Ph.D in chemistry to know whether a house is on fire or if the flames hurt your hands. You just get out and call the fire department.

And above all, ask what comes first, the Bodhisattva Precepts, or serving the personality of a leader?

A great problem is that persons who have tried to disrupt discussions here and on other venues often use a strategy of making it seem one has to have a Ph.D in Tibetan studies before one has any right to question a teacher's behavior or qualifications.

Or, if one already happens to have extensive background in Tibetan lineage matters, the questioner is told 'Oh dont get lost in intellect'.

Either way, a method is found to discredit you and shame you into silence.

And lineage and succession disputes are too often used to confuse and bore people into giving up a discussion--which could be considered a way to darken the mind with intoxicants.

A way to stay within Buddhism and at the same time examine a situation is to ask to what extent a teacher or lineage is being faithful to the Bodhisattva Precepts.

If a teacher's lineage credientials are impeccable, yet he or she is not living by the precepts, they cannot support your practice and their sanghas will be full of discord and harm--thought at first all this may be kept hidden if they are clever enough to stifle open discussion --which is one reason why often troubled sangha members have had to come here to RR.com to have an open discussion--only to have
enforcers show up and try to disrupt!

For all Buddhist teachers in the Mahayana Tradition (which includes all Tibetan lineages) are accountable to the Bodhisattva Precepts. They should all have taken a vow to live by those precepts.

And so are all serious students. If someone fails to live by these precepts, that alone will mean they create an environment that cannot support your practice and where harm will be generated.

Here is one copy of the Bodhisattva Precpts

[www.berkeleyzencenter.org]

Of the precepts the Pure Precepts state:

Quote

I vow to refrain from all evil.
(Doshi) It is the abode and the source of all Buddhas, and the law of all Buddhas.
I vow to do all that is good.
It is the teaching of anuttara samyaksambodhi and the path of the one who practices, and that which is practiced.
I vow to live and be lived for the benefit of all beings.
It is transcending profane and holy, taking self and others across.

These precepts apply to all Mahayana Buddhists, including those in Vajrayana and apply no matter what stage of practice one has reached.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2009 11:44PM by corboy.

I'm new to this discussion group. This is the first comment I have posted here. I am thankful to have this forum to speak my mind. It is my sincere belief and conviction that Diamond Way is cult of personality, and Lama Ole is an ego maniac. Suenam makes very good points, probably the most clear and concise I have read anywhere regarding DWB. It is not easy to even know where to begin because there are so many troubling aspects to Diamond Way. First, Lama Ole makes outrageously ignorant and mean spirited statements in public about the Muslim faith. Can anyone name a single Buddhist teacher who echos the comments that Lama Ole makes about Muslims? Why does Lama Ole feel the need to start talking about politics issues during a talk about Tibetan Buddhism? Lama Ole makes drastic generalizations about complex social/political issues when there is simply no need to discuss these topics. If I wanted commentary on international political and religious history, I would take a class at the university. Again, what accomplished meditation master would choose to venture into such highly charged territory? This makes me question his judgement and wisdom. His talks go on for such a long time, that I can only conclude that he likes to listen to himself speak and is impressed by his own charm and charisma.
I want to emphasize that I am not against the people who follow Ole, in fact I have met many followers who I liked and found to be pleasant and basically good people. I just feel that they are misguided. I believe that Diamond Way is essentially a Buddhist social club, or more accurately, a social club with Tibetan Buddhist trimmings. This group does offer a sense of community and promotes a "hip" and "cool" sensibility. It is easy to see why it is attractive to westerners. Lama Ole seems to act as if he is "bringing sexy back" to spirituality. Through Diamond Way eyes, "traditional Tibetan Buddhism" is stuffy and filled with too many annoying and inconvenient formalities. Diamond Way Buddhism is the McDonalds/Burger King/Taco Bell of Tibetan Buddhism.
It is Buddhism Lite. In Diamond Way, it is ok to drink alcohol in the shrine room. I have nothing against drinking alcohol, but there is a time and place for that. Lama Ole catagorically dismisses the potential uses for and possible benefits of psychoactive medicines such as LSD, even though he readily admits his own involvement with these chemicals. The fact is that there is a huge amount of scientific data concerning these substances and is available to anyone who takes the time to research these facts. So he is completely ignorant of current research taking place in this area. If it wasn't for the fact that Lama Ole passes himself off as a religious teacher who influences thousands of people all over the world, I wouldn't care. His apparent like for adoring fans and worshipful followers is embarassing to watch. I feel embarassed for him. He doesn't even have the common decency to state to his audiences that what he is saying are merely his opinions. He speaks with such authority that it really is convincing to those looking for a father figure in thier life. That's the way cult groups are. People who get into cult groups are hungry and searching for meaning, but lack a comprehensive understanding spiritual philosophies. The cult group is validating and it's hard to let go of a group when it does give people a sense belonging, and also when so much time and energy is invested. But it's pure attachment and it's based on fear. There are many true meditation masters in the world. Just listen to a real Lama give teachings. What true Lama would say such things that "Lama" Ole says? Would Lama Zopa say such things? Would Garchen Rinpoche say such things? Name one single authentic Tibetan Buddhist Lama that echos what Ole says.