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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: valontin ()
Date: January 28, 2009 04:45AM

There are people who did two traditional 3-year retreats and who are not lamas.
There are people who did not make 3-year retreat and they are lamas.
This is something depending on your teacher. If your teacher says you are lama, so you are.

On the question: What word Lama means?
HH 17 th. Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje answer is:
"We use word Lama, because it refers to somebody with much more experience than the beginners. The word means - one step forward. "
______

All the activity of Lama Ole is result of 16th. Karmapa`s wish. He is just doing what his teacher ask him to do.
And now Lama Ole has full support of HH 17th. Karmapa and many more Karma kagyu Lamas.

In my observation for the last 10 years, the result of Lama Ole`s activity is more independent, strong and joyful people, who actually are doing much for others.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: darren c ()
Date: January 28, 2009 05:07AM

Ok, Show me the (Lama) qualification manual that you seem to be quoting from or any other proof that a 3 year retreat is required to hold the title lama.

It appears to me from your last to post that you like to make thing up and try to make people believe it.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: January 28, 2009 06:05AM

darren C:

Your last post bordered on a personal attack, which is against the rules of this board.

This thread is beginning to seem like a destination for Lama Ole fans.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: Outsider ()
Date: January 28, 2009 10:15PM

Quote:

"In my observation for the last 10 years, the result of Lama Ole`s activity is more independent, strong and joyful people, who actually are doing much for others."


Lama Ole's activities have done many things for those within the Diamond way only, Diamond Way does not do anything for society as a whole. Diamond Way has given Trinley Thaye Dorje's parents a comfortable house in Spain, given himself much publicity and marketed him as the 17th Karmapa and fed the controvosy involved, stoked the fire is one way to put it.

If you pay your annual membership, fund travelling teachers, buy reccomended books, invest in photographs of Ole and the 'Karmapas' you benefit from many material objects.

Diamond Way also takes away many things, freedom of choice being one, objectiveness another it also shows the radical tendancies that have been highlighted here but ignored by some who have chosen to use this thread as an arena for school yard bickering.

I had no choice when the Diamond way came into my life (through my partner) and now everyday (for the sake of our children) I have to live with it and its idiosycrocies.

Tell me how that brings 'much' to my life, I frankly find it opressive and could even use stronger words.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: valontin ()
Date: January 29, 2009 12:07PM

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Lama Ole's activities have done many things for those within the Diamond way only, Diamond Way does not do anything for society as a whole. Diamond Way has given Trinley Thaye Dorje's parents a comfortable house in Spain, given himself much publicity and marketed him as the 17th Karmapa and fed the controvosy involved, stoked the fire is one way to put it.
In the same way it is possible to say that Buddha and his teachings are useful for Buddhists only, and does not do anything for society as a whole. And that is one possible point of view. Another point of view is that Buddhism gives people opportunity to develop freedom, joy, fearlessness and be actively compassionate to others. I am not saying that only Buddhism can do that. But that`s what I can observe.
So in that way when people become more relaxed, wise and good - that is also beneficial for the society as whole.
Karmapa controversy is a result of many things and it is not subject of this topic.
___

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If you pay your annual membership, fund travelling teachers, buy reccomended books, invest in photographs of Ole and the 'Karmapas' you benefit from many material objects.
There is no obligatory annual membership. There are many people who are coming to the centers - for years without giving any money. Also it is not necessary to buy any books, because usually they are available in the library of the local center - free for rent. Also it is not necessary to buy any photographs, I am such example.
___

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Diamond Way also takes away many things, freedom of choice being one, objectiveness another it also shows the radical tendancies that have been highlighted here but ignored by some who have chosen to use this thread as an arena for school yard bickering.
Diamond way is just translation of Vajrayana. The view and methods of the Buddha and of the diamond way are leading to more freedom. As now in many situations we don't have it. When there are conditions for anger - we react with anger, if there are conditions for jealousy - we "spontaneously" make scandals, our reactions are automatic and conditioned, we do not have freedom to choose. If we have that freedom, we can choose to make a cup of tea or coffee for our girlfriend instead of scandal. This is just one example. This is kind of freedom Buddhism brings about. Freedom from "disturbing" emotions. Freedom from ego. Freedom to benefit others, not to harm them. In every situation.
___

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I had no choice when the Diamond way came into my life (through my partner) and now everyday (for the sake of our children) I have to live with it and its idiosycrocies.
I really wish that all the problems disappear. That is something we have to work for together. Transformation of problems is not always easy, and Buddhist doesn't mean fully realized Buddha. But in my opinion generally it is easier to solve problems with somebody who is buddhist.
___

This is just another point of view, I have no intent to argue or to debate.
Best wishes and much love for all.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: Wangdrag ()
Date: January 29, 2009 10:53PM

Quote
valontin
Diamond way is just translation of Vajrayana. The view and methods of the Buddha and of the diamond way are leading to more freedom. As now in many situations we don't have it. When there are conditions for anger - we react with anger, if there are conditions for jealousy - we "spontaneously" make scandals, our reactions are automatic and conditioned, we do not have freedom to choose. If we have that freedom, we can choose to make a cup of tea or coffee for our girlfriend instead of scandal. This is just one example. This is kind of freedom Buddhism brings about. Freedom from "disturbing" emotions. Freedom from ego. Freedom to benefit others, not to harm them. In every situation.

To my knowledge vajrayana translates as etiher diamond vehicle (yana, as yati means "to go") or rather vehicle of vajra - where vajra would signify natural state of mind. Anyways Diamondway does not really represent a vajrayana tradition, at least not from the viewpoint of traditional vajrayana lineages.
Here is why:
In vajrayana there is a point of entry to the path and the master who grants the entry. The point of entry is abhisheka or as we call it empowerment. The master who grants the entry is vajracharya who confers the abhisheka. Since Ole Nydahl is not a vajracharya, he cannot grant an abhisheka, so there is no entry into the vajrayana within Diamondway group.
In vajrayana there is a path. the Path consists of view, method and conduct - since I donĀ“t consider it proper to discuss them in detail here, I will just mention one crucial point. Conduct consists of practitioner receiving - during the abhisheka - samayas - the precepts, which are to be followed. Since students in Diamondway do not receive these and do not abide by them, they are not vajrayana practitioners. Also the view and the method are not explained in DW, or are explained only partially and therefore not in a correct manner. If you are interested to know how that is, Valontin, you can PM me.
In my view it is true that teachings of Buddha bring freedom, but they have to be proper teachings and this I feel is not present in Diamondway.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: January 29, 2009 11:01PM

From another part of the Mahayana Buddhist World--Soto Zen


How Do You Know You are Practicing Correctly?

This story was from Zen teacher Uchiyama Roshi, telling of a man who wanted to practice Zen meditation. He apparently said nothing about wanting his family to share his practice. But he wanted to know how to tell whether he was doing his Zen practice correctly when at home:

Quote

"The other day,someone came here and said he would like to come over more often (to the Antaiji temple) and do zazen (Zen sitting meditation) under my guidance, but that Antaiji was too far from his house to do so regularly. He said he would continue to practice at home and wanted to know how to avoid doing zazen incorrectly.

'I told him that if his wife and children say, 'Daddy has become nice since he began to do zazen,' his zazen is being done correctly.' "

(The Teachings of Homless Kodo, page 69)

If someone's practice via a particular sangha is generating a chain of cause and effect that is bringing an unpleasant impact to persons sharing their lives with the practitioner, their pain is a signal that the practitioner needs to apply insight to how he or she is practicing.

A Buddhist in the Mahayana tradition, which includes both Zen and Vajrayana, practices for the benefit of all beings, whether they consider themselves Buddhist or not, and whether they are members of the practitioners sangha--or are not.

We are all in the ultimate sense, interconnected, for in the ultimate sense, we are not inherantly separate.

If one's method of Dharma practice is bringing pain to someone else we share our lives with, then, no matter how righteous and happy we feel, there is some hidden strand of afflictive emotion that has escaped our scrutiny, and is generating a thread of cause and affect within our practice that is harming others, and ourselves.

'Daddy has become nice since he began to do zazen,' his zazen is being done correctly.'--thats the sign that a beneficial chain of cause and effect is being generated.

And benefitting all beings is very much more than trying to recruit them into ones sanga.

We are advised by our Grave Precepts to beware of darkening our own bodies and minds and the minds of others with intoxicants.

Crusade mentality is an intoxicant and is a subtle one for its a mind state that can be generated in loyalty to a person or group and because it generates feelings of intense pleasure and energy and gives no obvious hangover, one doesnt have the incentive to examine the chains of afflictive emotion that create crusade mentality and bring misery to those who share our homes and workplaces and suffer by their not wishing to share our crusade.

The great difficulty in discernment is that its possible to have experiences of intense pleasure and certainty while doing things that harm others. This is what makes crusade mentality the most dangerous form of intoxication.

Valontin wrote 'I really wish that all the problems disappear'.

They will disappear if we understand that crusade mentality, as a collection of afflictive mind states, a combination of greed, hate and illusion has no place at all in supporting Buddhist practice. When this is understood, is taught,and is lived out day by day, the problems will disappear.

Society warns of the dangers of drunkeness and drug abuse. Hangovers feel dreadful and teach most of us to be cautious.

But crusade intoxication is far more seductive for it masquerades as virtue, does not make persons obviously ill, and leave them throwing up in the toilet.

And society is foolish, considers crusade intoxication a good thing, ('the purpose driven life') rather than what it really is, a collection of afflictive emotions.

Worst yet, society in its ignorance of Dharma, will grant tax exemptions to those intoxicated by religious crusade.

But even this experience of 'feeling good' whilst on crusade will contain subtle layers of afflictive and delusional mind and body states.

A true teacher would assist students to understand crusade mentality as a collection of afflictive emotions and as a form of intoxication, rather than trying to make it a source of energy to promote the sangha or lineage claims.

One does not have to be a fully realized Buddha to understand that crusade mentality is nothing more than intoxication, and far more dangerous because of its subtle nature.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2009 11:15PM by corboy.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: valontin ()
Date: January 30, 2009 04:18AM

Quote

To my knowledge vajrayana translates as etiher diamond vehicle (yana, as yati means "to go") or rather vehicle of vajra - where vajra would signify natural state of mind. Anyways Diamondway does not really represent a vajrayana tradition, at least not from the viewpoint of traditional vajrayana lineages.
Yes, you are right for the terminology.
Diamond way is translation of Vajrayana in English, as Vajrayana was also translated in Tibetan as Dorje tekpa. The meaning is beyond the label. We use this term in our western centers, because it is more understandable. Diamond way is integral part of the Karma Kagyu lineage. As there is a split in the lineage - there are lamas who did not accept that fact.

______________


Quote

In vajrayana there is a point of entry to the path and the master who grants the entry. The point of entry is abhisheka or as we call it empowerment. The master who grants the entry is vajracharya who confers the abhisheka. Since Ole Nydahl is not a vajracharya, he cannot grant an abhisheka, so there is no entry into the vajrayana within Diamondway group.
Well, almost all of my friends are received empowerments from HH Karmapa or HH Shamarpa or Lopon Chechoo Rinpoche or Shangpa rinpoche or Sherab Gyaltsen Rinpoche and some are studying in KIBI - New Delhi. Lama Ole is doing what his teacher HH 16th Karmapa ask him to do, and in my opinion and observation he is tirelessly working for the benefit of others, representing the original teachings of the Buddha. Lama Ole gives teachings, buddhist refuge and Ngondro and he is the reason for thousands of people to meet and practice Buddhist teachings. Lama Ole`s activity has full support of HH Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje and HH Shamarpa Mipham Chokyi Lodro.

Personally for me Lama is is a Buddha. I think many students of other lamas are seeing them also as a Buddhas.
This is something to check of course, not to believe.

Last September in Bechke - Hungary was carried out 2 week Ngondro course and empowerments with Sherab Gyaltsen Rinpoche. There were maybe about 600-700 people for the whole course and over 2000 for the empoverments.

Also there are some people from DW centers who attend Shamarpa`s Bodhi Path centers.

And many people who has first contact with Buddhism through Lama Ole, later became Nyigmapas or Sakyapas or Gelugpas or go to Zen or Theravada groups. And that is also great.

I am sorry, but my English is not perfect, and it is no to easy to express my thoughts.
Once again - just a point of view.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2009 04:46AM by valontin.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: valontin ()
Date: January 30, 2009 04:25AM

Corboy, the story is good, but on relative level it is impossible to bring only joy. When Buddha died that caused suffering for many of his students.

Maximum benefit, for maximum people, for the longest possible time. - This is what Ole answers to question - how to behave in our life. (Or how to make choices)


Corboy, if you are saying that Lama Ole has crusade mentality probably it is good to give some examples or some proofs.
I am sorry if I did not get you right.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2009 04:47AM by valontin.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: January 30, 2009 04:47AM

Valontin:

Ole seems to have his critics and he has become a somewhat controversial figure.

Do you think that some of that criticism is valid and warranted?

If so, what do you feel is wrong with his approach and behavior?

Please be very specific.

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