Why not to go back in the DW organization and to reveal all facts to the public (internet) by the support of undercover work?
(Corboy asks: What is meant by 'support of undercover work?' Is this in harmony with the high level of ethics and politeness needed to even qualify for participation in Dharma Debate?)
Ask people who work in a DW centre to work for the same good, they can maybe deliver hard facts about the organization!
Don't flee the organization*, but instead go back and reveal the truth.
Don't ask questions in the internet, but interview people who are in touch with DW center.
What is needed are practical help and hard facts.
I do the same since a couple of time.
To complain here does not change anything.
Just my two cents.
Complaining is not the issue here, if you read back you will see that information relayed here has come from either those who were once devoted and those who have been drawn in through friends or family and this information has attempted to introduce an objective view. I for one cannot discuss the issues posted here with someone who is devoted because in simple terms, my views are seen as attacks on DW.
I have been receiving harassing and threatening phone calls, e-mails and letters from Ole Nydahl's Diamond Way cult members.
The e-mails are easy to ignore, and so are the letters somewhat, but the phone calls are harder. I recently had them sign me up to be an escort with several agencies and got calls all week from these agencies!!
What would be the best way to deal with this?
I'm sure Ole knows that he's no saint and that he's just messing with our heads but the situation here reminds me of the scene with Brian, the messiah, when he says, "You've got to think for yourselves, you're all individuals" and they slavishly look up at him with glazed eyes and reply, "yes, were all individuals"
I’ve seen Ole speak on many occasions and this seems to be a regular occurrence! It is as if he has his formula and he is very well rehearsed, so much so that if you go to see him on several occasions then his talk becomes quite predictable – these are not slip-ups, he seems to genuinely think that he is…? (words fail me, is it supposed to be entertaining, funny, a bit on the edge? To me it just looks like ego.)
One thing I know is, our Tibetan teachers and Rinpoche's will not interfere in the Western affairs, like a father treats and corrects his children's.
They will not do something which becomes obverse to the public.
They keep the band with everybody and they are ready to work with everybody. So to discipline somebody in then open will not work out for them right now. Anyway, this has many faces and perspectives which can't be elucidated here. To give you an idea, one reason can be, eastern diplomacy not to take sides.
I agree with some of your points. However how can you separate Ole as a person from his actions?
Concerning Tibetan teachers, they are also teachers of Ole. If I were a teacher of a student who has himself become a teacher and this student would make some mistakes, surely I would feel necessary to correct him for his own sake and for the sake of others. I am not saying that they do not correct Ole, maybe they do, but there is no visible effect taking place. Karmapa even asked Ole not to talk politics (islam etc.) during his lectures and for some time Ole stopped, but now he does that again. And it was quite embarassing when Karmapa visited Europe two years ago and all the newspapers were asking him about his stance on islam, because Ole kept talking about islam to the press all the time. If I were in the shoes of HH.Karmapa, I would have a long and solemn discussion with Ole. Sometimes teacher needs to behave like a father, when his student is behavinng like a brat - at least this is my view.
So I think that Tibetans are in part responsible, because they lend Ole their authority and in fact it is them and only them till this day who can transmit the teachings of Kamtsang vajrayana and who are therefore responsible for keeping them well and alive. It is them who put Ole into the role of a teacher.
If a shoemaker makes bad shoes he is the one responsible and has to either take them back or correct them. So is that also not similar to allowing one teach Dharma and then the person starts to teach their own stuff? On the other hand I fear that if they did withdraw Ole the situation would be like the one of Michael Roach, who still teaches, although not under the umbrella of Gelug school.
all the best in your efforts
how can you separate Ole as a person from his actions? [quote/]
By discussing the actions and not so much about the person. Of course all actions are connected by a specific person. So by discussing an action you/we are discussing indirectly the person who did perform the action.
I have to admit, public will not see or accept the little but important detail. So the debate can become very quick heated.Quote
Karmapa even asked Ole not to talk politics (islam etc.) during his lectures and for some time Ole stopped, but now he does that again.[quote/]
So did the Sharmapa many times without visible effect on Ole behaviour.
It might be that Ole sees something what I don't see. The Islam is not really the problem, what is the problem that people use the Islam as religion to cover up with their doubtful agenda. We are not discussing the Islam, we are discussing extremist and terrorist who use the Islam as weapon.
So I do with the behaviour of Ole. To make a generalization is one problem I see here. By the way, Ole is no exceptional case.Quote
If a shoemaker makes bad shoes he is the one responsible and has to either take them back or correct them.[quote/]
Yes, Ole is the shoemaker and not the teacher of Ole. (Little but important detail.)Quote
So is that also not similar to allowing one teach Dharma and then the person starts to teach their own stuff?[quote/]
Be careful with your conclusions. You can't make somebody responsible who don't act according to your (or my view).
The Karma Kagdyu school does not operate with the right of executive power, similar like the Vatican. There exist no legal form which would allow the Karmapa to handle afairs in the fashion you have suggested. Remember, the Karmapa resides in India (original as refugee) with Indian passport now.
He has no legal power to give order to a Western student who teaches in the Western hemisphere.
Also, it is not his style to give order to somebody. He is so very humble man. The most humble man I have seen in the world! But he is no naive man.
He asks people very polite and humble. This is the traditional eastern way. Karmapa is no exception in this regard.Quote
On the other hand I fear that if they did withdraw Ole the situation would be like the one of Michael Roach, who still teaches, although not under the umbrella of Gelug school.[quote/]
Well yes, that could happen at the end. But practical will not happen for reasons not to isolate himself and his organization and to keep the band with his teacher(s).
But this would be a very bitter pill for Ole. Karmapa does not show this gruff attitude and behaviour like the pope in catholic church.
His attitude is based on voluntarism and on mutual consensus.
This is the code how the Kagdyu school was operating since centuries. The Karmapa was the boss in everybody agreement who was under his wings.
If Ole can not follow this code of ethic, it is his decision, hence his responsibility. Nobody shows responsible for it, but Ole alone.
It means also, Ole behaviour shows that he thinks and acts like, I know better than my teachers right now do!
If you hear that a teacher can not listen what his master advised him. Everybody is free to draw his/her conclusion about Ole actions.Quote
So I think that Tibetans are in part responsible, because they lend Ole their authority and in fact it is them and only them till this day who can transmit the teachings of Kamtsang vajrayana and who are therefore responsible for keeping them well and alive. It is them who put Ole into the role of a teacher. [quote/]
No, for reasons I have explained above!
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2009 06:22PM by Dave.
The idea of public action is a good one, but at my (admittedly small) attempts at public action, and another former member friend of mine's organisation of a protest have simply led to yet more harassment and death threats from Diamond Way.
The idea of a 'Dharma debate' is very difficult with Diamond Way, because as corboy said, they will simply use this as an excuse to restrict discussion, just as they do by in their centres. This is because Diamond Way is not real Buddhism, but in fact a cult that claims to be Buddhism.
i agree with Dave that we should try to be more systematic, and i think that this thread should have some direction.
Something which has to take place outside of Rick Ross web-page.
A virtual drop in centre in the internet. For people who like to inform themselves about DWB for example and for those who like to contribute something from their own experience.
A centre to collect informations about DWB.
I have no clue how this can look like and how it can operate?