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Rama Das (slave name)

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just-googling

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cultreporter
There are a few fundamental aspects of KC that I can't make any sense of in Siddha's perspective.

As I understand everyone else in the disciplic succession was born into a spiritual life to some extent - at the very least they were Indian so they had a life time of learning and practice and did not become archaya until they reached advanced age. Totally inconsistent with an American who was thirty at the absolute most before he assumed the role and had only been iniated for about 6 years. Even if you ignore the facts that he disregarded ACB in so many ways and then fell from his position of sanyassi there is (another) huge question mark over his validity.

Good point, Reporter... the idea is that God will arrange it that one will be born into a family of Vaisnavas ... the fact is that JG was born into a family of meat-eaters who moved to the isolated island of Molokai where a boy's ego could soar above the clouds ... and return as the one and only world guru!

:!:

I am pretty sure that A.C. Bhaktivedanta was no different, he could have potentially been older when he got involved. His family were just your average Indians, A.C.B. pursued higher education for a long time before he ever met the man who was to become his guru.

Yes, I think you are right, Rama, but at least ACB was born into a Hindu family, as were all the previous acharyas!... Maybe this is a shrewd move on Krishna's part to move the disciplic chain to the English-speaking world, as English is becoming the predominant language in the world today... What, with Christopher's English and Wai Lana's Chinese, they could conquer a large percentage of the entire human race... superheroes to challenge homosexuals throughout the entire world!
:!:

I agree with you Rama and Just Googling that With ACB it seems that he was potentially older when he got involved, but that he was at least born into a Hindu family.

What I was basing my reasoning on was what I have read and been taught about ACB which while I suspect has been exaggearted if not in places outright fabricated is the widely accepted as the truth - and I think we all realise how belief has a way of becoming reality.

It is said that ACB was born into a Vaishnava family. He stated that his father was a pure devotee, a statement I have often heard repeated by devotees of different backgrounds.

[www.hknet.org.nz]

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(ACB's father) Gour Mohan wanted Vaisnava goals for his son; he wanted Abhay to become a servant of Radharani, to become a preacher of the Bhagavatam, and to learn the devotional art of playing mrdanga. He regularly received sadhus in his home, and he would always ask them, "Please bless my son so that Srimati Radharani may be pleased with him and grant him Her blessings."

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From the beginning of Abhay's life, Gour Mohan had introduced his plan. He had hired a professional mrdanga player to teach Abhay the standard rhythms for accompanying kirtana. Rajani had been skeptical: "What is the purpose of teaching such a young child to play the mrdanga? It is not important." But Gour Mohan had his dream of a son who would grow up singing bhajanas, playing mrdanga, and speaking on Srimad-Bhagavatam.

On the above link you might also enjoy reading about young ACB's background and his tantrum to receive not just one toy gun but two. I can imagine parents in SOI's horror that their son would never be a Vaishnava based on such an instance. The poor kid would probably be banished to living in the wood shed or worse packed off to the Phillipine boarding school.

ACB met the man that became his spiritual master when he was 26 and was initated ten years later. The reason for this was undoubtedly that he was off getting an education and establishing his business, but it is typically represented as being on account of spiritual development with the material ventures being merely the neccessity to support his family. ACB often referred to there being no fast or proper way to initiation that each will be in their own time giving credence to the idea that he was a spiritual seeker who spent a decade as a student and did not make the decision to be initiated on a whim, regarding his spiritual life very seriously. What we know however is that his business actually failed and that he himself initiated virtually indiscriminately leaving questionable opportunity to learn or develop an understanding of KC and in Siddha's case was most likely influenced by the wealth that Siddha and his followers bought with them.

On another point it may be considered that ACB was married and had children, he is portrayed as having gone through the stages of devotional life - another basis for sanctifying his memory - although seldom is there any interest among his devotees in his family life besides acknowledging that he renounced householder life in his 60s to go to America.

Despite being told when he first met his guru that he should teach KC in english he did not make his move until after his own guru died and then he went about making assertions contrary to his spiritual master, renouncing and denigrating Gaudiya Vaishnavism at every opportunity and making his own assertions such as As It Is. The fact that ACB was publishing Back To Godhead for many years is cited as a sign of his devotion and insight, paper was scarce, he did it all himself etc. A champion propogater of Krishna's names - but what better way to express that you know better than everyone else than by creating your own teaching base and slant of philosophy. In the home of Krishna where spirituality is firmly entrenched in everyday life was such a publication ever really neccessary?

ACB's own guru career was very Siddha-esque and I think that it is entirely conceivable that young Sai, already a spiritual entrepreneur, was shrewd enough to realise this even then. The major difference and hypocrisy is that ACB lived out his life before arriving in an entirely different culture to attempt to lead it's youth to the moral and living standards of an ancient culture which they had no concept of. He gave men in their twenties who had not even had sufficient opportunity to consider the potential of falling in love and having a wife and a family as he himself did, or even just experiencing the joys of the opposite (or in the case of quite a few senior ISKCON devotees same) sex sanyassi, apparently anticipating that it was possible they would live out the rest of their lives as celibate preachers. Preachers that had had as little as a few months of KC before making this decision. Those who wanted to be devout without forsaking sex life rushed to get married to women in the movement and ACB presided over these weddings as indiscriminately as he did his initiations. When not suprsingly the vast majority of these unions ended in divorce ACB simply washed his hands of it, refusing to preside over any more weddings and then declared that he would not make any more temple presidents that were not married and in a stable relationship because the high divorce rate and the number of sanyassi 'falling down' was becoming too disruptive - a rule that was a complete deviation from KC philosophy.

ISKCON took off very rapidly, but it has always had a high drop out rate.

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zelig

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Rama Das (slave name)
zelig, you are insanely passive aggressive, so whatever.

The mentality that you were portraying in your story is most likely not much different than the one that designed and integrated all that symbology into the Israeli court building... what is NOT weird about those pictures of it?

Why do you have to fly off the handle at me, fool?

I am not an idiot, man, I don't think about that stuff anything like that.
I think you are being a real prick.

It saddens me that you felt that my meager attempt at levity was a personal attack. I do not think that you are unintelligent. I do take issue with the ideas propagated by the websites you referenced. Evidently you take these ideas very seriously. I don't. No, I do take seriously what and who lies behind these ideas. It doesn't take looking too deep. Three steps in and you can order an Islamic screensaver and find out every product made in Israel that you can boycott. But these are subjects for another thread and other forums and people more inclined to argue your points.

Regarding the Israeli court building; it's called architecture. If you know anything about the history of art and architecture you will understand not only the style of the building is from a certain stream of art, but also that symbolism in architecture is quite common. This does not make you an idiot. It just means that you did not get a good education in either history or art as a child in a krishna cult. The person who wrote commentaries on the courthouse has no understanding of the history of Israel, Judaism or the symbolic use of certain components. Many symbols are universal and none indicate nefarious meaning as is implied by the website you referenced. Counting 30 or 33 steps and the bullshit that there is a muslim grave desecrated there are interpretations not based on reality but rather on the commentators own agenda ---- very cult-like.

I will tell you that for Jews around the world the atmosphere is very 1930's.

You have all the freedom to beleive what you want about conspiracies. You also are beginning to sound like a young friend of mine who was in the process of converting to a radical form of Islam. Same ideas, same theories, same easily taking offence if his ideas were challenged. I'm not suggesting that you are in this situation. Only a word of caution; consider your sources.

Perhaps you should also consider the possibility that growing up in a cult did not give you proper filters to sort out truth from fiction or that the supression of creativity and passion results in minds groping for the radical.

I'm going on vacation now.

Yeah? You have acted so uptight and weird around this stuff, always reacting in the same stupid way, just to put me down, just to undermine me in a purely subversive and indirect manner, never once going into a single point in a clear way so as to communicate to me how you feel. Why the hell not talk to me about your ideas that you feel I might be treading on in my ignorance?

You just treat me like I could never know, never understand and just attack me. Why not let me know what is really going on? I can learn, I can understand.

You seem to hold very many concepts that are Holy, Elitist and Untouchable.
You are unable to remain on the same level as me around them, and just freak out as opposed to communicating.
You have as many cult symptoms as the next guy, kinda more blown outta proportion than most, actually.

So keep your indirect violence to yourself, man, treat me like a goddamn equal or you have just burned another bridge.

Crappy Holidays.

Hmmmmmmm... do you think it is possible that I do not hold a replica belief system of the people at the other end of that link?

Let me clear it up a bit.

I posted it for the freemason video, if there were a link for that alone, I would have posted that.

I love checking out all the weird symbology, and I think we can learn a hell of a lot by paying notice to it. (just to see it, not necessarily the interpretation.) I am sure that there is an official explanation to all the symbology, but there is even more reason to think that the true meaning (what it represents to the creators) could be different.

most societies and circles these folks run in are elitist and compartmentalized, usually containing many different levels of knowledge, as you elevate, you move into a new "truth", learning that what you had before was not meant to be the REAL interpretation of the symbology and mythology.

The symbols are always placed in our faces, usually adorning places of power (political, etc...) yet barely a single person notices it or engages with it. I appreciate the work of those who document this stuff, I appreciate their ideas on the meanings.

I personally think that those in power fully believe and operate through all kinds of ritual and "black magic" and are involved in very different ideas than they are open about.
I think THEY hold these ideas, and I just like to follow it.

I do not know. I do not "believe" this stuff or hold some crazy position.
You are so foolish to mix up my character with that of the "extremist conspiracy theorist", you should judge me by what I actually say, not by what a link I post says.
I am open to what they say, I am open to what you say (just too bad you
are incapable of contributing to my understanding.) I am open to information from all over the board.

I watch Chris Butler
I watch George W. Bush
I listen to Sean Hannity
I listen to George Noory
I pay attention to somebody who claims to have had this or that very strange experience.
I pay attention to someone who is absolutely insane.(like various street people, for example.)
I pay attention to creative individuals from all different endeavours.

I always feel enriched.

I am always myself.

Have a happy Hanukkah, drink some gin and tonica... smoke some Marijuanica, and for christs' sake, pull your head out of your arse.

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DharamRakshak
Little spirit please consider publishing your writings on philosophy or perhaps add this to your career, teach people that the truth is not as it seems and just maybe you will realise the dream you had of preaching and charity. Any spiritual master worth such an exalted position would be proud to have you.

That was a very nice message, thank-you. I have said many times that the only thing that it would take would be for one person to tell me that what I write and what anyone else writes here is wrong. I am not closed minded. All I want is the truth. It is all that I have ever wanted. If anyone there could give it I am sure they would based Lord Caitanya's mission but now I just have to seek it out for myself. I did not get my notebooks or journals back, I have no idea what happened to them, along with everything else that I left in my own home and never saw again. What I write on that level is only ideas based on reading scripture, heaven forbid that I would publish them and people would want to follow what I say - and lets face it that if people can follow Dianetics they are capable of following just about anything. My charity is Science of Identity awareness.

The philipino boys school was in a town called "Bagio" (the spelling may be different). at least a few hours drive from Manila.

This is an account I just found today where someone who was a disciple of ACB and associated with both him and Siddha makes some very telling observations about what ACB thought of Siddha and what he was getting up to. I have edited it to post all the bits that specifically mention Siddha here, but you can read the author's whole article at the link.

[www.srimadbhagavatam.org]

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Also sitting with us was Nilo Santos, a young member of the wealthy Manila aristocracy. Nilo liked to chant Hare Krsna. Prabhupada asked, “So what was your philosophy before you chanted Hare Krsna?” Nilo smiled and said innocently, “LSD philosophy.” Prabhupada returned an even bigger smile, “Oh, so many of our students also followed that philosophy. Isn’t that correct, Siddha-svarupa?”

Siddha Swarupananda Swami was one of many whom Prabhupada saved from “LSD philosophy

Siddha-svarupa Ananda Goswami, Sudama Vipra Swami, and Tusta Krsna, were our friends. Tusta Krsna was now preaching in New Zealand, and I had met Sudama Vipra Swami before he opened the temple in the Philippines. Both Tusta Krsna and Sudama Vipra Swami had been followers of charismatic Siddha-svarupa, then Sai, a home-grown Maui LSD guru-spiritual leader during the 1960s. After Sai mixed Hare Krsna chanting into his brew of natural-living, spiritual meditation, and surfing, he surrendered his asrama and his disciples to Prabhupada. The Krsna conscious style of these devotees, especially after my unfavorable dealings with my GBC, seemed refreshing, relaxed, friendly, and practical.

I gradually adapted their ideas as an attempt to make our preaching successful in Hong Kong.

But along with loosening our preaching techniques, we also slackened our Krsna conscious practices. I imagined that Prabhupada understood what we were doing, and due to our increased preaching success, was sanctioning it.
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Turning to me, he asked, “So you are following Siddha-svarupa Ananda Goswami and Sudama Vipra Swami?”

“Yes,” I answered, not prepared for what would follow.

Prabhupada began, “They are rascals. By following them you have become a rascal.


The elevator arrived. Prabhupada continued to speak from inside. “It seems that Siddha-svarupa Ananda Gosvami has come to this movement to take.” I immediately objected, trying to protect my associates.” “No, Prabhupada, I don't think he has.” Without a moment’s pause Prabhupada countered, “But we want them to take.”

My head spun. “Yes,” Prabhupada continued, “We want them to take . . . our rules and regulations!”

“Prabhupada, Siddha-svarupa Gosvami seems to always be thinking of Krsna, yet he seems to have displeased you so much.”

Prabhupada illustrated the situation through an example. “If the telephone is ringing and a man does not want to answer, he will say,” and Prabhupada pointed to his head and grimaced, “‘Oh, I have a headache. I cannot come.’ Can the actual situation be detected?”

I asked Sudama Vipra Swami how to greet and honor Prabhupada, and I made the arrangements according to his advice. When I heard both his appreciation of our offering and his strong criticism of Siddha-svarupa and Sudama Vipra Swami, I asked, “Prabhupada, I know you appreciate the arrangements we made for you. I learned this from Sudama Vipra Swami, so he helped me.”

Prabhupada’s reply was dour. “That is nice. But he cannot help you any more.”

Then how should I treat him and Siddha-svarupa now?”

“You should treat them with respect,” Prabhupada replied. “A Vaisnava treats everyone with respect, even an ant!”

In his recent Hong Kong visit, Prabhupada had clearly spoken about Siddha-svarupa Ananda Gosvami, but in Mayapura, even in Siddha-svarupa Ananda Goswami's presence, Prabhupada neither directly corrected him nor spoke openly as he did to me in Hong Kong. This confused me because I was not experienced in the subtleties of Prabhupada’s way of dealing. I asked Prabhupada to again clarify Siddha-svarupa’s position. Prabhupada replied. “At least he is now wearing dhoti.” I told Prabhupada that he wore a dhoti in Prabhupada’s presence, but at other times he wore Western clothes. Prabhupada’s reply seemed a conclusive judgment: “Just see.”

Prabhupada, understanding my affection for Siddha-svarupa Ananda Goswami, then gave me further instructions that would keep the association within the limits of his desires: “You can associate with them, but it should be on our terms. When he and his followers come to the temple in dhoti and with shaved head, you can associate with them

Prabhupada had great affection for Tusta Krsna Swami, who had served in Bombay and then opened a thriving ISKCON temple in Auckland, New Zealand. But Tusta Krsna Swami was a follower of Siddha-svarupa Ananda Gosvami. Siddha-svarupa had left ISKCON and that prompted Tusta KŠa Swami to change back to Western clothes, change his preaching style, and to give up the management of the New Zealand temple.

I sat with Tusta Krsna Swami as he spoke with Prabhupada. Tusta was a sannyasi, but he was dressed like a nondevotee and had hair and a scraggly beard.

Prabhupada recounted the story of the great struggle he underwent to procure Hare Krsna Land. Tusta Krsna was the first devotee to have seen the Juhu property and to contact Mr. Nair, and Prabhupada told the story from that point. After telling how Nair had cheated the devotees and fought against Prabhupada to maintain control of the land, Prabhupada narrated Nair’s final defeat, his death by heart attack. Tusta Krsna had been the one to inform Prabhupada of Nair’s death when a Bombay devotee phoned Prabhupada in New Zealand.

Tusta Krsna seemed eager to reciprocate with Prabhupada. He began recounting his remembrances of Prabhupada’s reaction after hearing of Nair’s death. “Prabhupada, you raised your hands in the air and called out ‘Hare Krsna!’ You then folded your hands reverently and said, ‘I am a saintly person and I know I should not have prayed for his death. But I could not help it. He was so offensive.’”

Prabhupada and Tusta Krsna spoke about Bombay ISKCON for some time. Then Prabhupada made his request, “You should go back to Bombay and be in charge. You were the first to find the land. You can even take back your wife, that Tulasi dasi. She is a nice devotee. You can go back and be in charge of Bombay.”

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I have mentioned the selling of the NZ temple before, and the letter about it is on the blog where ACB wrote to Tusta telling him not to sell the NZ temple. The info that I got was that Tusta and Siddha sold the temple and made off with the money, although in the end they did the right thing - but I also came across a reference recently that the whole affair had to do with one of the eleven, so hopefully I will be back with some more scandal soon. :twisted:

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Rama Das (slave name)
I was watching a video on freemasonry and the maker of the video said that the freemasons (maybee the elite ones) worship a god called Jabalon.

Jah-Baal-On

The god was the weirdest damn thing I have ever seen, depicted as a red spider body with 3 heads, the middle was a white bearded and crowned king, HIS left head was a toad, and his right head was a kitty... awwwww.

Sounds like it could have been a demon from the Krishna book ... or even an incarnation of Krishna himself!!! ... or maybe someone had eaten one too many magic mushrooms! (I hear that the weed nowadays is way too powerful ... I'm glad I kept away from it!)

:P

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cultreporter
It's a damn shame that when he was pirating christianity Siddha didn't get the first thing that I learned at Sunday school - that God is Love. Imagine that.

Remember that song: "Hate your next neighbor but don't forget to say Grace." ???

It's kind of difficult to "love your neighbor" when you are taught that they are rascals and demons.

:?:

Maybee off topic a little, but definately no theory at all, and a perfect example of this idea that our leaders are truly extensions of the old dynasties/bloodlines/royalties.

They are all very aware of this, and see themselves as the ones with the god given right to rule over us.
We are still their serfs.

[www.patrobertson.com]

look at both available links on that page.