A powerful observation by an early poster on page 4. These were the years the cult started suing various people and scare them into silence.


yoursister Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am astounded by the defenses of this "teacher's"
> advocates. From my own experience I find their
> blatant invasion of the rights of "individuals" to
> be outright arrogant and presumptuous. Believe me
> they have no compunctions about delivering the
> goods to vulnerable, seeking and innocent people.
> Just when and how the invasive techniques begin I
> have yet to comprehend. There is something
> sinister here. Something unsavory perhaps?
> Factual is that they discourage independent study,
> exploration and the dignity to interact in the
> wide wide world. Such limited and insular behavior
> signals insecurity, fear, dependence and smallness
> of spirit. When these qualities are passed on to
> children and/or vulnerable sensitive people one
> could use terms such as abuse, violation of
> personal freedom and interference with the course
> of spiritual growth. Grave offenses if you ask me.
> Power moves on innocent minds is rape in my book.

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The barely mentioned vishnu of rig veda better not
> quite his day job. He's done a piss poor job being
> the protector of children, born or unborn. Plus,
> what does it matter, if you're not your body?
> Isn't it the fetuses karma to get killed in the
> womb?

Philosophical-theological-moral-legal problem. However, it changes when we assume that time is not linear ...

>
> Abortion is a fact of life (in the animal kingdom
> infants are killed regularly if they are weak or
> deformed. Ancient tribal cultures also abided by
> this practice. At least now we live in a time
> where we can assess the condition and the
> prospective life of an unborn fetus well before it
> has to suffer through a grueling life). Without it
> we have economic and humanitarian disasters like
> India.

This is a rationalization characteristic of gravitational degrading relativization. Difficult living conditions in a society of 1.5 billion - so many hands to work - mean an internal disease. Because regardless of poverty, lack of capital or theft (for example this QNET and accusations vide V. Eswaran & A. Tibby), it is hard to believe that working 1.5 billion people are not able to improve their fate. A question then arises whether the progress in mentality will be such shaping of consciousness, where there is an individual, social or systemic (state law) consent to killing the unborn child instead of increasing individual responsibility. This simple analysis shows that abortion is a continuation of spiritual, moral, or mental devastation.


> Philosophies like Vaishnava fantasy has not
> solved the functional reality that, while deeply
> unpleasant, a system needs to be in place for
> women to safely have an abortion if they need to
> and get the support they need. It's called
> progress. It's called humanitarian.

Not exactly. The question is at what point of operation the system works, what are the causes or reasons for the abortion. Threat to the life of the woman or the fetus - abortion should be an individual choice. In a situation where unwanted pregnancies result from the free treatment of the phenomenon of procreation, the so-called freedom of access is - according to Catholic nomenclature - the industry of death. Life is a mystery to an open scientific, non-indoctrinated inquiring mind. And regardless of the faults of members of fundamentalist and fanatical religious groups, the mind inquiring about the causes treats such behavior on a level worse than that of animals.

Before I met the hope in SIF (disappointing) and left the Catholic Church and turned my attention to Buddhism, considering abortion was a source of horror for me as a teenager.

>
> Gosh, I can't even imagine the hopelessness and
> utter traumatizing feeling and self deprecating
> judgement a devotee woman lives with who had an
> abortion before joining the cult. Fucking hell. At
> least she saved a child from growing up in this
> religious nightmare of a cult.


Also not necessarily. By recruiting or accepting a new member - or a sheep - a cult can relativize its views. Because eventually someone joined a sect. And it is happening. Abortion before joining SIF is bad. Then she is forgiven because the sect saves.

When it comes to philosophy, it can bring relief. As an example - my would-be girl in her youth had an abortion as a result of submission to a boy, after running away from home, etc. It was a great problem for her for years. She was relieved by the Bhagavad Gita. Although there was an abortion, this soul does exist. She expressed it herself. Then, being a Catholic, she became a good mother.


> Especially if
> you're looking for compassion mercy and acceptance
> after being fandangled to believe in the krishna
> God, only to have a guru like Butler who rubs it
> in your face what hideous creature you are.

That's another aspect.

> There's at least one fanatical lifeforce series
> booklet dedicated to abortion bashing and a
> minimum of 10 colorful lecture recordings.
>

The question is whether sect members behave better. Examples can be found on the forum.

> The world you criticize and the progress you have
> problems with, based on medieval naive religious
> fantacism, is a world you benefit from.

The question is who sets the criteria, what is progress and what is degeneration, who is to make this progress, and what solutions are acceptable and what are not. Adolf Hitler recognized that the progress of civilization and the German nation was getting rid of the disease - Jews, Roma, homosexuals and some Slavs unfit for efficient work, and the solution was gas chambers. Oh, it wasn't progress. This new pro-abortion progress is a way to get rid of unborn fetuses. In both, there is an element of violence against the defenseless. Jews, Roma and Slavs were also poor. They have to be bombed, shot, closed in concentration camps, gassed or sometimes burned alive. Of course, the economic aspect is important. So the camps must be efficient, valuables must be taken, some clothes must be used, their hair must be made into pillows and their bodies must be soap. Similarly with fetuses - they can be used for cosmetics.
This is this progressive philosophy.


> You can
> stomp your feet against modernity, but you use a
> computer and participate in any number of liberal
> capitalist systems, daily. In fact, if it wasn't
> for the industrial and technological revolutions,
> your religion would have died in Bengal.

Yes and no. This progressive philosophy presents, inter alia, the gun theory, and whether one wants to believe it or not, in practice it still works. On an individual or social or global level, self-interest triggers at some stage counter-action or competition, and after exceeding the acceptable level, it triggers the mechanisms of war. So a zero sum game turns into a negative sum game. The alleged unlimited economic progress has collapsed, the USA is in debt, according to the mechanism of potential equalization plus competition in profits (Germany) there has been economic growth in China. The philosophy of unlimited economic growth is a pipe dream. So is the narrative about the end of the story. There is no end to the story. It is the end of the unipolar geopolitical system and there is a return to particularism and games for balance ... This religion is not so backward ...


> Quoting ancient myth and ideas will not reverse or
> slow down reality. Trust me, life is better now
> for most than it was 200, 500, 1000, 5000, 12000,
> 400,000 years ago. Complicated? Absolutely. Still
> trying to figure things out? Always. But that's
> life and no religion has offered a better way. Not
> Vedic, Abrahamic or otherwise. Sorry. God is dead.

Modern science has not directly solved the basic problem - it has not developed artificial synthesizing replicators. That is, a mechanism that they duplicated themselves having previously obtained resources. There is no such creation. So there is no first condition for creating a substitute for life. The second - apart from the carrier - is gaining self-awareness.

> One need not follow Butler to understand the
> theory of karma, reincarnation or even bhakti (if
> those topics attract you). In fact, modern man has
> at thier disposal much data that quickly puts to
> rest 90% of what butler and the krishnas have to
> offer. The remaining is actual philosophy (still
> some philosophers opinion) and a rich cultural
> heritage that westerns ripped off. The theology
> falls in the realm of faith and can be taken
> symboliclly or literally, but lies beyond reason
> and science. And for the record, you ever notice
> that Who Are You? and Reincarnation Explained have
> never been picked up by a serious publishing house
> and reprinted even once since the '80s?

This filosophy is one of the proposal for mystics. She says it herself - one in a thousand is interested, and one in a thousand of them reaches the final goal.

As one of the Sanyasi said, "if you want this .... then you have to do this and this." This is a completely different approach than manipulative recruitment at SIF.

"Reality of Reincarnation" is good book. On the other hand, selling it hard in a cemetery is already a pathology.


>
> But alas, I'm not here to convince you as much as
> to keep this forum from devolving into incoherent
> mush and obscuring the real issues within this
> group.

I do not need anything on this forum. Likewise, no one has to believe me. The forum exists and everyone who wants to share their experiences does so. I don't need to write any further because I wrote most of the observed phenomena. I have omitted personal details and a number of incidents that may, under certain circumstances, be disclosed.

My judgment is mine. Your situation is different, the assessment is different. They were slightly hurt, forced, etc.

On the other hand, I will not accept an atheistic narrative or one that undermines the "spiritual" experiences that have been in SIF. The more question is why after the program at SIF the "mystical" experiences were closer to mystical yoga, eg daily OBE and not "prema" etc.

But that's it.


> Tulsi and butler and ISKCON will do
> anything to remain relevant in a world that
> largely does not take them seriously. Tulsi will
> dwindle into obscurity not because she's a
> politician, but because she's a religious fanatic
> masquerading as a humanitarian in a world that's
> become disillusioned with such flimsy narratives.
> Butler will dwindle because he was abusive to
> followers and created an organization of
> sentimental fanatics, like ISKCON, all of which
> will use any means necessary to try to convince
> people that they have the answers.

Tulsi Gabbard & SIF has no proposition for the world, because her practice of life (participation in the invasion of Iraq, divorce), understanding (practically no understanding of the Bhagavad Gita) or politics (democratic compromise vs Planned Parenthood acceptance) does not add value to the world.

Either way, this knowledge is known. And it was known.

Polish-Lithuanian national bard and "Switezianka". 1822. Allegoric reference to Radha and Maya-Devi (Atharva veda mood):

[pl.wikipedia.org])

Hybrid games for money and power turn into war, and here the goal becomes trophies:

[www.youtube.com]

And the Russians and other European nations did not like German progress very much:

[www.youtube.com]


SIF methods did not like either ....

ps.
Also Germans appreciated mantras:

"...Sand und Klang"

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2021 03:42PM by DaWatcher.

I guess it just gets chaotic we starr getting into the philosophy and argue about it.
We all seem to have different views and there are apparently different versions....
We have covered the fact that SoI is practicing a diluted version of Vaishnavism.
I think the most important issues with SoI have been exposed in this forum. The subject started in 2004.
We cannot make up new stories. Until some other people show up with their personal experiences.
I am not sure when we will see another person from the group come on here.
Yes for sure if we just keep arguing about philosphy and moralities.... We will just keep clashing.
So I guess we must make an effort to stick to the “abusive” side of the SoI and not venture too much into who believes what.
I am still truly grateful for all of you and our conversations.
Thank you for all the support.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I guess it just gets chaotic we starr getting into
> the philosophy and argue about it.
> We all seem to have different views and there are
> apparently different versions....
> We have covered the fact that SoI is practicing a
> diluted version of Vaishnavism.
> I think the most important issues with SoI have
> been exposed in this forum. The subject started in
> 2004.
> We cannot make up new stories. Until some other
> people show up with their personal experiences.
> I am not sure when we will see another person from
> the group come on here.
> Yes for sure if we just keep arguing about
> philosphy and moralities.... We will just keep
> clashing.
> So I guess we must make an effort to stick to the
> “abusive” side of the SoI and not venture too much
> into who believes what.
> I am still truly grateful for all of you and our
> conversations.
> Thank you for all the support.


I'll tell ya this much: the very best (American-grown) ganja I've ever smoked, I was getting from a fellow who was born and raised in SoI and ISKCON (but mostly SoI). His parents were part of the Hawaiian group who joined ISKCON when Chris Butler joined, then left it when Butler subsequently left. His parents were originally followers of "Sai" (as Butler then called himself), in other words. This guy knew Tulsi Gabbard when they were kids; they were friends and he's told me all about what the Gabbards were like before Tulsi got famous. Damn, that was some good ganja. :-)

Sure.

Also waking up dead Grandy with "Prana+" spray gun is some kind of progress...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2021 07:37PM by DaWatcher.

DaWatcher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sure.
>
> Also waking up dead Grandy with "Prana+" spray gun
> is some kind of progress...

No BS. That was the best American-grown ganja I've ever smoked, the stuff I got from the man who grew up in SoI. This guy is not a hippie type at all; he's more like a Krishna conscious biker. A real character, he.

I just found this letter from ACB. It broke my heart because Beharilal das is one of the few people who commited suicide in SoI.
I copied the relevent part.
I wish he would have listened to his Diksha guru. Maybe his fate would be different. Not sure what pushed him to end his life.
I just know that when a person ends their lives, they blame it mostly on offenses.
I suspect that most suicides are linked to the toxic dynamics of SoI.


December 13, 1973

My dear Beharilal,
Please accept my blessings. I am in receipt of your letter dated November 8, 1973 just now received by me as it was redirected from India.
I have not received any reply from Tusta Krsna Swami to my letters. I do not know why he has left New Zealand. In Hawaii a great wrong doing has been done by Gaurasundara and Siddha-svarupa. They sold the temple and went away with all the money without taking any permission from me. It is a fall down on their parts. YOU SHOULD NOT GO AND JOIN THEM IN HAWAII.”

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I suspect that most suicides are linked to the
> toxic dynamics of SoI.

Dynamics of events, neurokinetics and memes going down through the sect hierarchy, toxic ideas and results of creation.

Quote

It was getting worse from week to week. Robert stopped sleeping, refused food, stopped washing. All the time he said he was waiting for death, after all, he had lost contact with the god and the guru. He was in a state of panic, he wondered what would happen to him after death, since he was burdened with such terrible guilt. In an act of despair, in December 1995, he agreed to a psychiatric examination. He was referred for observation at the Psychiatric Clinic of the Medical University. He escaped from there but was detained. After receiving a letter from the Institute ordering him to treat, he agreed to stay in the hospital. He has been there on and off to this day.

[sekty.pl]

Lost contact with the God and Guru. But, there are supposedly other Gurus. They say - "no, no other pure devotees". But they join WVA but do not want to talk or hear about molesting women by WVA founders..

Kasia Socha and her suicide. The question is still open - with what leader she was traveling around Poland, with whom she was pregnant at the time of suicide



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2021 08:47PM by DaWatcher.

Today I remembered something Butler said in a lecture. I am going to paraphrase as I don’t remember Word for Word.

“People come to our meditation classes and gatherings and wonder how come we offer them for free.
It costs nothing but then once you get serious about spiritual life, you will have to give away EVERYTHING. (or maybe he said it will cost your everything)”.

This cult has taken everything away from some people including their lives.
I must give credit to Chris Butler for not hiding his game behind a sweet voice and smile like the sex predator Vishwananda.
From the beginning he has overtly insulted people and abused them in the name of chipping away false ego and bringing them closer to God.
There is a very deep dependence and lack of self-respect coming from the followers. From the top ones to the lowest, they are all co creating this mess.
They also need to be called out pretty often in this forum.
Take responsibility for their actions and non-actions.
The followers of the science of identity are to a varying degree mentally, emotionally and spiritually sick. Some of them are so together, smart, kind, good looking, talented.... That there is no way that anybody could suspect deep down they are suffering from Stockholm syndrome and many other subtle issues.
And their mantra as we all know it, is that WE ARE ALL IN A MENTAL HOSPITAL.
I think that even the most solid ones externally need years of therapy for the trauma bonding and codependence.
I do not like to victim shame because I believe that one can easily fall into the net as I did for many years.
However the followers put up with all this nonsense and bring more people into such a fear based group.
One of my friends from the group who left many years ago told me that she felt guilty as hell for introducing a person to the group.
Funny enough I think that he has left too after years of faithful slavery.
I feel for Kasia and cannot imagine her tormoil.
If one of the leaders did indeed make her pregnant, I guess that he must be living with some guilt.
I let them swim in the murky puddles of hypocrisy that they have created.
They really think that they are the spiritual version of drug lords such as Pablo Escobar that nobody can touch.
They are using Krishna and the Parampara the same way gangsters use a corrupt system to carry out their mission.
We are lying for Krishna, dealing Hash for Krishna, laundering money for Krishna... No worries brothers and sisters. It is all used in service. No KARMA!
I hope that nobody is above universal laws. No governments, no guru, no president, no top Hollywood executives.
That false sense of security that because they are serving Krishna they can do whatever the hell they want, will backfire sooner or later.
For the time being, their Karma comes in the form of US. Those who use our voices to expose them. Here, on youtube, in blogs, articles written by non SoI members...
Of course they see us as enemies and demons rather than those who are delivering a bitter Karmic dish to them.
The few suicides are a very dark indicator as to how toxic the group has become.
They keep suing people with the dirty money while they should get sued.
This material world is quite inverted and perverted.