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Krishna group in Hawaii
Date: November 09, 2005 09:42AM

I tried to send you a private message, but when I did it came with this responce:

Sorry! Only users with at least 10 approved posts in the forum are permitted to send private messages

So, I did what I did, I apoligize if I have caused a problem, It won't happen again.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: just-googling ()
Date: November 09, 2005 02:27PM

That's shocking news about Biharilal. I knew him briefly - he was a nice and mellow guy, like you said. The question that arises here is where is the "higher taste" that is supposed to develop in people who have been chanting the name of God? This higher taste is supposed to bring to the devotee a transcendental bliss that overshadows all material pleasures, yet I don't really see this developing in anyone (of course, my vision could be defective). However, I can only speak for myself, but having followed the path and chanted for a few years it never seemed to develop in me, and judging by the actions of Biharilal, who can say whether he was experiencing transcendental bliss or just an absurd feeling of guilt that caused him to take his own life?

The devotee is also supposed to be "more tolerant than a tree" - yet there seems to be a very real intolerance of, for example, homosexuality, the "impersonalists," the "Hare Krishnas," or even the non-members of the group, in other words intolerant of anyone who is not in the group.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: barabara ()
Date: November 11, 2005 02:30AM

I don't think anyone writing here is willing to say anything important, although they keep promising to talk if names are given.
So far none of the questions have really been answered.
It just goes round and round the truth.

Nobody needs names. There are some parents that want to know what happened to their children, though.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: barabara ()
Date: November 14, 2005 02:36AM

I have found and am posting a number of quotations, attributed to Joel Kramer from his book The Guru Papers. (I copied these excerpts from a variety of web reviews of the book, and have not had a chance to verify their accuracy.)

Quotes attributed to Joel Kramer:


Many gurus vociferously claim they
discourage worshipful attitudes in their followers, alas, to no avail.

In the realm of sexuality, the two prevalent ways control is exerted are
through either celibacy or promiscuity. Although seemingly opposite, both
serve the same function: [b:7cbe841bb0]they minimize the possibilities of people bonding
deeply with each other, thus reducing factors that compete with the guru
for attention.

Th deceit underlying most ploys is that the guru has no self interest at
all.[/b:7cbe841bb0] The traditional ideal of enlightenment allows this deceit free reign,
because the guru is placed in a category beyond the knowledge and judgment
of others. From here, gurus can rationalize any contradictory behavior.

Whatever the authority does is regarded as perfect or right.
Thus behaviors that would be questioned in others are made to
seem different or proper.

[b:7cbe841bb0]Even those on the lowest rung can feel superior to those who have not had
the intelligence to become members.[/b:7cbe841bb0]

As long as they are gaining in strength and membership, this attitude is
reinforced. Believing they are on the crest of a wave, the feeling within
the group and the leader is one of optimism and satisfaction. Their stance
towards outsiders is one of benign superiority. Others will catch up or
see the light in due time.

A time inevitably comes when the power and popularity of the group begins
to wane...the apocalyptic phase enters and the party is over.

Often, he consciously or unconsciously blames those around him for the
failure of his aspirations.

Though the guru needs his disciples even more attached to him, he becomes
more remote, sending his dictates down the line.

[b:7cbe841bb0]As the group's isolation increases, so does its paranoia towards outsiders.
those who drop out are often threatened. [/b:7cbe841bb0]

It is also very enlightening to observe how gurus treat and refer to those who leave their


"As long as the guru still sees the possibility of realizing his ambitions, the way he exercises power is through rewarding the enthusiasms of his followers with praise and positions in his hierarchy. He also whets and manipulates desire by offering ‘carrots,’ and promising that through him the disciples’ desires will be realized, possibly even in this lifetime. The group itself becomes an echo of the guru, with the members filling each other’s needs. Within the community there is a sense of both intimacy and potency, and a celebratory, party-like atmosphere often reigns. Everything seems perfect; everyone is moving along the appropriate spiritual path. The guru is relatively accessible, charming, even fun. All dreams are realizable-even wonderful possibilities beyond one’s ken." (p.78)
"But a cult in decline has more trouble selling itself. . . Members and the guru become withdrawn and the focus gets more internal, insular, and isolating. . . The fun is over. The rewards are now put into the distant future (including future lives) and are achievable only through hard work. This not only keeps disciples busy and distracted, but it is necessary because the flow of resources that came with expansion has greatly diminished. This glorification of work always involves improving the leader’s property (the commune or ashram), increasing his wealth, or some other grandiose project." (p82)


"...The ex-disciple’s world has turned on its head: What the guru and group presented as unconditional love was conditional upon accepting their authority; the egoless guru was found to be on a manipulative, even crass, power trip. [b:7cbe841bb0]For people who surrendered totally to a guru and thus experienced passion more deeply than ever before, seeing "The emperor wears no clothes" can be devastating. So it’s no wonder people have tremendous resistance to anything that causes them to doubt the veracity of the authority[/b:7cbe841bb0]." (p.152)

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: just-googling ()
Date: November 15, 2005 01:06PM

om shanti shanti shanti
Biharilal was a disciple with Chris for a long time. He did run DTE at one time. You are write that he was in car accident and it shook him up, his wife also left him which also shook him.

I note with interest that you said "his wife left him." It seems as though the divorce/separation rate among this group is very, very high. I have also heard that within the Hare Krishna group the divorce rate is 90%, and I don't know if that is really true, however. For a group that teaches righteous morals, this seems to be a bit of a contradiction. Is it because one spouse feels that he/she is more "spiritually advanced" than the other and thus not worthy to be in their presence??? Is it because they are so busy chanting the mantras that they don't have time for each other??? Any ideas out there on this subject?

As for the school in the Philippines, I am sure that it is not as bad as the typical Hare Krishna schools that were in India or USA in the past, which were famous for all kinds of physical abuse. But I'll bet that they are making young children get up early from sleep at 4 or 5 in the morning and making them do their chanting and prayers, and probably depriving children of much needed sleep, and perhaps depriving them of food, as ths is a third world country and probably quite poverty stricken. Their teaching is that Jagad Guru Chris Butler is the one and only representative of God on this planet and all others are false, and the children are probably being taught this also.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: tod ()
Date: December 11, 2005 06:36PM

Yea I was offered the toenails and told to eat them.

I consider toenails non-vegetarian personally.

Perhaps the toenails will become a type of Eucharist for Chris's followers.

I was there for a long time, until the contradictions and hypocrisy became too many.

One really has to wear blinders to stay in that group. I got tired of the ones I was wearing.

A lot of 'half truths' taught.

I saw plenty but am reluctant to say much.

I still live in Hawaii and brush up against many of them from time to time.

I could probably help anyone watching who is thinking of leaving the cult, who has already left or needs help.

If this gets posted I will say more.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: kali ()
Date: December 11, 2005 10:43PM

Please do !!! There is such reluctance here for relevant facts. WHY ARE PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM INTIMIDATED?
Are there really any ex-members of this group?
Folks who have good reason for concern appreciate solid information.
Plain old prurient curiosity is one thing.
Truth about this group is what is called for. So let's hear it.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: just-googling ()
Date: December 12, 2005 02:58AM

I was a member of this group many years ago, and at that time there was no such thing as eating toenails - at that time it was just a meditation process for knowing God by chanting the names of God. I am quite amazed at this toenail phenomenon - this certainly sounds a bit crazy. But, looking back, there was certainly also a bit of craziness involved around worshiping a guru as "the one and only" and this does seem to fall into the realm of cult type behaviors. I remember at one time there was an obsession going on with washing the feet of the guru - (I suppose taken from the Bible and washing the feet of Jesus - but then again Jesus walked around in the dusty desert with sandals on and it does not seem reallyapproriate in this day and age). - but eating toenails??? Yech.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: just-googling ()
Date: December 13, 2005 01:29AM

While on this subject of "toenail eating" I should also mention that I do remember reading in their scriputural books that the stool of a pure devotee of God smells like roses... One can only imagine what kind of crazy behavior this could lead to...

Also other "absolute truth" printed within their scriptural books: the sun is closer to the earth than the moon, and that a whopping 200,000 miles is the size of the entire universe!

Other controversial subjects might be that the disciples are required to recite the name of God no less than 27,648 times each day (16x108x16) and a disciple is required to donate 25% of his/her income to the guru.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: billy ()
Date: January 21, 2006 11:28AM

Todd, please tell more, some of us are having hard time taking our blinders off.

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