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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: bonnie ()
Date: October 01, 2005 09:18AM

To be blunt, I just find it curious that someone who claims to be an "outsider", watching from the fringes, would use that particular work, "rascal", when it is so rarely heard among the general populace and seems to me to be so specifically used by Bhaktivedanta and the J.G. teachers.

I'd like to post this excerpt from a post by Corboy. It seems to me to fit in well with my experiences with the J.G. Group:

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In a healthy, group or relationship people are upfront about their hopes, dreams and values. In relation to such a group or relationship a decision to leave can be sad and quite painful, but you can leave without feeling damaged, not feel afraid and depart with your dignity intact. And...(very important) you can still remain friends with those who choose to stay in the group.

The sign of a bad group or harmful relationship (eg Roach Motel) is when dissent or departure are considered betrayal, not a choice that is regrettable yet worthy of respect.

Departure is treated as a sign that you're a failure or a traitor and those who stay with the group are ordered to forget you/vilify you and forbidden to communicate with you. Anyone who is ejected or leaves is suddenly pathetic, weak or a villain, no matter how many years they were members or how much support they gave. They may once have been considered model members. If you leave all your past loyalty and achievments suddenly mean nothing.
******
And in a healthy group, you can apply your questioning mind to any and all topics--including the group and its internal affairs.
[b:bcde09b16b] Cultic groups are quite different. The questing mind that brought you to a cult is, after you join the cult, no longer praised. Instead you're gradually trained to replace your questing mind with an indoctrinated mind. [/b:bcde09b16b]

Just as domestic dogs are taught not to piss or drop turds indoors, smarter cults teach you not to apply critical thinking to the group--the equivlent of not whizzing in the house.

However, you're allowed, sometimes even encouraged, to apply that same skepticism and intellectual sophistication to topics outside the group--especially in relation anything or anyone the group considers a threat.

[b:bcde09b16b] Or you're taught to apply your sarcasm and skepticism to bash members whom the group designates as scapegoats.[/b:bcde09b16b]

You think you're free, you feel free, you may have all kinds of breakthroughs or bliss experiences, but your horizons have actually shrunk--in a process Janja Lalich has termed 'Bounded Choice'--(see her book of the same title).

In bounded choice, you learn not to test the limits, much the same way people with angry partners unconsciously become skilled at avoiding topics that make the person angry. The limits get more confining, you constrict your behavior further and further, avoiding any open ruptures.
******
[b:bcde09b16b] Some groups enforce the the limits by using strategic rejection.[/b:bcde09b16b] They are skilled at brutally identifying members who have misgivings but whose misgivings are still unconscious. In strategic rejection, these persons are brutually ejected before their misgivings become conscious.

A group or leader that can skillfully apply strategic rejection of selected victims whose skepticism has not yet become conscious delivers a powerful message to stay in line. Thg victims may be haunted, feeling they 'did something' to provoke their ejection, but may never guess that what they did was come dangerously close to waking up on their own that it was time to leave. Instead they got kicked out before they could do it themselves, robbing them of any sense of conscious mastery.

[b:bcde09b16b] Instead of having doubts about the group or its guru, you're taught to have doubts about anyone who disagrees or shows less than total enthusiasm. [/b:bcde09b16b]

After skepticism has become housebroken to serve the group and never question the group there are fewer things you can talk about--and you experience this constriction as normal. It may be balanced by intense experiences, by the delights of group gossip and intrigue. All this pseudo intensity distracts from what you've given up as the price of staying in good standing.

You learn to avoid applying your questing mind to the cult, its background, its leader's pretensions, where he got his training, who taught him, or whether he had a criminal record or if he or his group changed names.

You learn not to apply your questing mind to where the money goes or why some people suddenly stop coming to meetings and everyone pretends they never existed--or suddenly badmouths them.

In some cases, people may be subtly taught to profess some sophisticated skepticism about the group and guru, make it seem they're not as over the edge as more extreme devotees, making it seem one can follow the guru, but not become a blissed out zombie.[b:bcde09b16b] But--if any really effective challenge is made to the guru or group, these 'housebroken skeptics' will suddenly get quite defensive of the group and turn vicious. [/b:bcde09b16b]

[b:bcde09b16b]These 'not-quite devotees' are valuable because they make it seem one can be a devotee and stay respectable and functional in society.[/b:bcde09b16b]

The fact is, their social and intellectual sophistication have been domesticated--house broken--to serve the group's agenda. More damaged members may be kept out of sight, or may be abused as members of the guru's inner circle.

If you were expertly trained by a group to have your intellect and skepticism housebroken, you'll feel free and very sophisticated-- but [b:bcde09b16b]you're still on a leash--the leash is quite a long one, a modern extendable leash that lengthens when you pull on it.

But it is still a leash.
*******

The minute someone uses their intellect and skepticism and actually does the equivalent of pissing in the house--they'll get the equivalent (or worse) of a biff on the snout with a rolled up newspaper.[/b:bcde09b16b]

The entire post can be found under Housebreaking the mind- Domesticated scepticism, (Cults, sects, and New religious movements).

I have chosen to emphasize certain sections of the essay that I found particularly pertinent.
[b:bcde09b16b]This is not to say that I am convinced that this is necessarily true of Butler's followers. From my experience with them, and their reactions to questions raised on this forum, it certainly seems to be a possibility.[/b:bcde09b16b]

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: kali ()
Date: October 05, 2005 02:11AM

Check out Hawaii Dept. of Commerce and Consumer Affairs and you will discover some mighty materialistic ventures run by this group under the name "Down to Earth". A rather humble sounding name, no? How about real estate, video production, construction, clothing businesses, imports, Noni juice, healthy food stores and more. Hypocrisy.
For implementing schizophrenia in children try preaching virtues such as honesty and then encouraging a child to lie to their family.
Next try preaching egolessness and non-materialism while coveting and pursuing coldly the children of others.
In addition instigate a mentality of martyrdom with the premise that any life other than that ruled by Chris Butler must be endured as a challenge.
These are some of the ventures indulged in by these people.
Hypocrisy.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: bonnie ()
Date: October 15, 2005 07:08AM

Corboy states in one of his posts:
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After skepticism has become housebroken to serve the group and never question the group there are fewer things you can talk about--and you experience this constriction as normal. [b:94d3e87375]It may be balanced by intense experiences, by the delights of group gossip and intrigue[/b:94d3e87375]. All this pseudo intensity distracts from what you've given up as the price of staying in good standing.


Under[b:94d3e87375] Clergy and Therapy Abuse/ Problems and pitfalls for Small Groups[/b:94d3e87375], he posts:
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Privacy safeguards boundaries, supports communication and confidentiality. But [b:94d3e87375]secrecy disrupts communication, *promotes intensity at the expense of intimacy*, isolates people from each other, preserves power imbalance[/b:94d3e87375], and above all promotes childish dependance and breeds fear.
Of course everyone has a right to privacy, and it would not be reasonable to ask for the intimate details of every member's personal life. If someone is claiming to be a leader, or teacher, however, secrecy and deception have nothing to do with "privacy"; instead, they are tools used to manipulate and coerce prospective initiates.

Then there's the question of what spiritual tradition the Guru is actually teaching. The students of Butler claim that his teachings fit in with Christianity:
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He or she may pretend to teach from one tradition (eg present themselves as a Hindu guru) while actually using material from a completely different source (Gurdjieff, or commercial trance methods such as NLP).

If a teacher pretends to teach from one tradition while covertly teaching material that originates from a different, incompatible tradition, this is a form of deceit--[b:94d3e87375]the teacher is operating from a secret and may get a sense of authorititive mystery that keeps students off balance, teased and thrilled[/b:94d3e87375]. It is impossible to grow up in relation to such a person because the student is perpetually kept off balance.

[b:94d3e87375]This kind of teasing and tintillation fosters craving, and is anti-spiritual.[/b:94d3e87375]
******************
Such student-inmates may remain on a 'psychological leash' held by the teacher, learn a lot but never 'graduate'--which should happen if a group is genuinely transformative and enables people to become adult in relation to the teacher and group.


The group who won't admit they're a group:
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In some cases, a group of this kind may even deny that it is a group--which means membership is a secret and people cannot permit themselves to think at a conscious level about this [b:94d3e87375]'group-that-is-not-a-group'[/b:94d3e87375].

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[b:94d3e87375]If attracted to a discreet, secretive group, a prospective student needs to ask whether they feel attracted or thrilled by mystique, secrecy, cloak-and-dagger, elitism for its own sake[/b:94d3e87375].

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: bonnie ()
Date: October 16, 2005 08:35AM

I just found an interesting interview on the subject of [b:59b3f7344d]religious choice[/b:59b3f7344d] and the use of Force.

The jist of the interview is that you cannot "force" anyone to love God, and that a devotee who attempts to do so is getting in the way of that person's loving relationship with God.

Deception and coercion also take away a person's freedom of choice by giving them false information about what they are choosing.

[b:59b3f7344d] "You're getting in the way of their loving relationship with God."[/b:59b3f7344d]

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: angelover ()
Date: November 04, 2005 07:34PM

I have spent the last couple hours reading & thinking through all the messages about Chris Butler and his devotees. VERY interesting to say the least! I have never spoken up about these things, but this seems like a great place to tell you all what I saw 1st hand. This is from the last couple years only.

Let me start by saying, I am not here to talk trash on anyone. But, I do have a significant amount of personal experience with this Bhakti Yoga group. I pray that only truth is revealed and that I dont offend anyone.

Honestly, I learned TONS of good stuff. I think Chris Butler is an incredible being and awesome speaker exposing mistruths about mainstream religion and thinking in general and challenging willing people to WISE up. I really hope he is helping people. But at this point, I am not sure.

I have personnally met him and can say that I was moved by the power.
The first time I wept deeply and danced besides him chanting blissfully.
He has come in dreams plenty.

It was a deep lifestyle. My favorite part was and still is the Singing.

This path is definately all about Krishna. And that I love. Devotion to God in form. Makes things so clear, that is if Krishna is the form of god that you are connected with. For me it works to chant krsna's names for hours on end. But for many souls it just isnt the path.

THINGS THAT FELT OFF/WRONG/WEIRD to me: MY DOUBTS

These things definately are bitter tastes left over. I have listen to almost ever lecture tape(hundreds) and most all the videos many times, so I have heard the philosophy in depth.

1- Judgement of other paths as lower "impersonal"(christ lovers,buddhists ,native american traditions, called demi-god(lower) worship(loving Jesus as god), even loving Shiva is seen as lower. ZERO support for ANY other paths. If you decide to go down another path, judged as lost or sucked into the grip of illiusion(maya).

2- Judgement of other spiritual teachers, without even meeting these "false teachers", citing teachings WAY out of context.

3- Lack of respect/association of Blood family. Lots of sad stories :-(

4- Lots of Money going to Questionable projects/guru care.STORIES**
No charities.

5- Calling people "demons" if they dont act according certain ways. Instead of seeing all as Gods children.

6- Heavy Promotion of regulative principles as THE ONLY real truth
a-NO MEAT, FISH, OR EGGS(but all the TOFU you want:-)
b-NO INTOXICATION- I guess that doesnt include the lsd or sugar.
c-NO gambling-
d-NO Sex, outside of marriage.

7- fears of association with outsiders as bad for your spiritual growth
but then bashing team spirit. Yet, creating us and them.

8- SECRETS, LOTS OF HUSH HUSH stories.**** with the reason being, that you arent spiritually enough evolved to understand the ways of the guru. But yet taught that the guru is the teacher by example. Its very hard to even see his daily life!!!! But, listen to the tapes and read the books, thats the example to follow.

9-No public involvment other then to spread the holy names or purify others with "blessed"food, or political agendas.

Ok, so some of the SECRETS & QUESTIONABLE projects/GURU personal care.

Devotee's that made "mistakes" were/are taught by getting fined money, must leave the country or state, may not come back, BLACKLISTED, yelled at. plenty of stories to tell there.

Guru watching lots of movies(daily at points). Secret movie project.

Millions of dollars spent on special non-toxic housing/travel projects. I guess I can rationalize that one.

Intense Anger expressions towards Gay people. I just couldnt see ANY love in that whole part of the deal. Seems like gays are being massively generalized.

Telling devotees who to be married to or who to devorce. NO support for couples who have different spiritual paths.

You dont get much of this from the outside, but if you chant a lot ,and dont act too weird, you might get to see some of the "questionable" stuff.

We shall see.
Maybe I am just not "purified" enough to see the truth, if this is true please forgive my short comings.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: barabara ()
Date: November 05, 2005 02:07AM

Unfortunately, just because some people "feel good" to be around, they aren't necessarily good people. That's called charisma and it's a gift certain people are blessed with.
I have known several people who radiate feelings of well-being, and just being in their presence made me, and lots of other people as well, feel peaceful, happy, at ease; the entire gamut of good feelings. One of the people I knew who is like this is a con-man and a thief. He uses his charisma to make friends and get others to give him money. He's not a guru, but could be if he focused his energy; he has that much power. People just love the guy for no reason, and forgive him no matter what he does. They dream about him. Women go crazy over him. And he never does anything too horrible, just some petty thievery and a lot of lying.

I would be very careful not to mistake charisma and a powerful personality for true spiritual enlightenment.
Charisma is certainly an valuable asset for anyone who wishes to be a leader. John Kennedy had charisma, as did Ronald Reagan.

One of the things I have read consistently in all religious teachings is that Humility and Honesty are of the utmost importance.
If charisma is present without these two qualities it does not indicate a truly spiritual person, and I would never accept a spiritual leader who does not posess these character traits in abundance.

I personally don't think that anyone who expects other people to call him master could ever be truly enlightened.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: just-googling ()
Date: November 05, 2005 05:32AM

I remember the monetary fines for minor infractions. I always thought that was a bit weird. It reminded me of Bob Dylan's song "Maggie's Farm" - "she fines you every time you slam the door - I ain't going to work on Maggie's Farm no more!"

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: i_was_one ()
Date: November 05, 2005 01:26PM

Hi barabara,

You are so right about some people having charisma, yet at the same time not being good people.

The late "L. Ron Hubbard", the charismatic founder of the cult Scientology, is revered by his followers, yet the people who work in the centers for the most part work for very low wages, not even close to miniumum wage. And the public Scientologists pay an arm and a leg for "auditing", the goals of which are an increase in ability and a sort of spiritual enlightenment, etc.

Mr. Hubbard became very wealthy from the sale of his books and from the Scientology religion, yet apparently it did not bother him that people who worked full time to keep his churches open and to make it possible for his services to be delivered were not paid a living wage.

I think it is only after people get away from one of these cults that they realize the founder is not a good person.

I also had a "financial advisor" with charisma, and he pretended to have my best interests at heart, it turned out that I had to sue because of stuff that this guy did to me, and that I was at least lawsuit number 10.

By the time I got around to suing, I could not sue him, but someone who had hired him, cause Mr. X had already filed bankruptcy.

Thanks for your post, I agree with all that you stated.

Sincerely,

i_was_one

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: kali ()
Date: November 07, 2005 01:17AM

Direct current information is good here.
Angelove.....we are curious to know some of the "tons of good stuff" you learned. The areas of your doubts are valid. Your sharing what you learned (good and doubts) are helpful to others who perhaps do not recognize the psychopathology of this seemingly harmless bunch of fools.
Is the lsd use still going on?

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Date: November 08, 2005 01:11PM

I am an ex-member, I am on thier blacklist.
Christ Butler lives on Oahu, [...]. You are welcome to stop by and have a conversation. No just joking, you probably wouldn't make it to the front door, he has security, the head of his security goes by the name of Gurudas ( he is Phillipino, and is rumored to have killed someone), he has two children that I know of, that live in Northern, CA. Chris Butler has a mall size AC, filtration unit for the house. He is very sensitve to pollutants.
They have businesses on the Big Island. One is a surveying business, which they are un-licensed to perform. The name they use for this business is George Peterson Surveying, it is a scam, and they have destroyed peoples properties in search of corner pins.
Families have been destroyed by members of this group. Their is no toleration for non-members. If you are not a member, and you have a family and your spouse is a member they will take your spouse away, and lie to try a destroy the non-members life. If the couple has children they will create what ever lies they can to keep the children from the non-member parent. They will lie to the children,and convince them that they have been abused by a non-member parent, so that can use that against the non-member.
If you need any specific information on this group, please ask and I will respond. I have a few people who are undercover in this group who provide me with information. As I said, I am on the blacklist, I was in this group, and had a child with a current member.

[Moderator's note: Don't post contact information, directions to a residence, addresses, etc. which is against the messae board rules]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2012 09:40PM by rrmoderator.

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