I wonder how they must rationalize their involvement in the cult. Older followers must be aware of much of the fraud or??? If they are living off the backs of new people, they probably don't much care now or ever --- or they are so trapped in the mirror of their narcissistic leader that they really believe they are doing g0d's work.

Yes they are trapped in the illusion that they ARE doing Gods work!Absolutely
I have been very hesitant to post here for so many mind boggling reasons as you former Cbers would know.
For the past 3 days I have read all the threads,some of it shocked me,some of it helped me alot to know that my inner feelings are not wrong..I have so many feeelings right now that it is quit overwhelming!!!But of all of these there is mostly saddness,disappointment when you thought "Wow ive found the way and Ill never be disappointed again"Boy was I wrong.I have been living the cb life now for many years and just recently left,slowly and painfully leaving...Due to the knowing that I would loose my so called family and friends that were all ive known for so long.Also the Fear of them feeling I have betrayed them in some way.Well I am NOT the betraying one here.I have loved sincerely all of my friends from this group and considered you my family..How can we be family if I choose to live my life different and you choose to no longer like or love me??To me it is not loving or kind or pleasing to God to stop caring for someone just because there doing something different in life.Thats called conditions not unconditional love which is what REAl family has!!
I didnot leave because of any one particular reason but for many things that I consider contradictions to LOVE for GOD.But I did have an intense experience that pushed me forward.That was with myself.I recently made a comment to a friend and she said"Wo when did you become a bigot??"It was like a huge light came upon me and I started reflecting on my behavior and the changes I have made(good and bad)Of coarse I went thru the"you not surrendering to God,its all you,your Karma,blablabla.But that is not true.I finally realized that when your hearing constant negativity about certain people from someone that you consider a great teacher,you follow his example(mindlessly i might add)going against your own inner convictions and knowing.Well God gave me a brain to use so Im using it now!!!I am very flustered and I feel foolish for buying into this shit for so long...
Before CB i was a kind and generous and particularly a non judgmental person as I believed that is the way to please God.I didnt even realize what a jerk i was becoming and sounding just like him when i would talk to myfamily outside of the group.Wo.
well i have much to say and will post more later,there is alot to process and thank you all for your sharing.
I particularly would like to connect with yuo(VERA CITY)

Foolishfear,

A big part of the healing process for me after leaving the haribolers was coming to this forum, reading the posts, and posting myself.

It was a great relief to discover that it wasn't me, it was them, and the fact that they are a cult and much of what did not sit right with me about this group was due to their cult behaviour.

You say you have spent a lot of time reading through the posts here and that is good because there is so much relevant, insightful, and intelligent information.

I am very grateful to have extricated myself from the cult of CB and it is only when you get away from them that you begin to see things clearly. What a relief!!

My 2 cents: don't beat yourself up, view it as a learning experience, take whatever positive you can from your experience, and get on w/ your life.

But disassociate yourself from them. You will be grateful that you did.

Best wishes and God bless!

"Hoaxie"

Foolish Fear,
Great post, very honest. Every one of us have been where you stand now, the fresh hurt, the doubts. And I reckon everyone of us is greatly relieved that we finally obeyed our own integrity and started to think for ourselves. After 14 years I left in about 1986, about because it was kind of slow (sounds like you know all about that). I have managed to build a happy, loving life and many of the scars have healed. One thing I know beyond a shadow of a doubt is that whole mindset about offenses against the guru is just bullshit, I thought I would be blighted, I waited for the misery. The opposite happened, I have been very lucky and love life again instead of viewing most of humanity as depraved.
I will never forget the isolation of those first months. I thought I was the only one who thought and felt like me. Forums like this or Gaudiya Repercussions weren’t around then. My ‘welcome back to the human race’ moment was when I read George Orwell’s Animal Farm. I realized that while my particular story and cult experience were unique, the story of wonderful ideals gone wrong and corrupted leaders abusing others was a universal one.
Hang in there, there is nothing to fear!

Quote
foolishfear
I didnot leave because of any one particular reason but for many things that I consider contradictions to LOVE for GOD.But I did have an intense experience that pushed me forward.That was with myself.I recently made a comment to a friend and she said"Wo when did you become a bigot??"It was like a huge light came upon me and I started reflecting on my behavior and the changes I have made(good and bad)Of coarse I went thru the"you not surrendering to God,its all you,your Karma,blablabla.But that is not true.I finally realized that when your hearing constant negativity about certain people from someone that you consider a great teacher,you follow his example(mindlessly i might add)going against your own inner convictions and knowing.Well God gave me a brain to use so Im using it now!!!I am very flustered and I feel foolish for buying into this shit for so long...
Before CB i was a kind and generous and particularly a non judgmental person as I believed that is the way to please God.I didnt even realize what a jerk i was becoming and sounding just like him when i would talk to myfamily outside of the group.

Thanks for posting foolishfear,

I can only echo what Guru Doubter and "Hoaxie" have already written. Don't beat yourself up. Life only gets better. Z told me he "was always waiting for the karmic shoe to drop". It never did. He tried to hold on to anything positive he learned and gleaned from the experience, but found life outside of the cult so much richer on all levels; spiritually, emotionally, and materially. (BTW, Z was never the troll certain individuals tried to make of him on this forum and I recommend his posts along with many others who were also vilified).

Without revealing personal information, I'd like to know more about how the cult is operating currently. Did you ever meet the fearless leader CB himself? How were you exposed to his teachings? How did you get involved? How did they pull you in?

After reading this forum and learning a bit about its history over the past 30-40 years, what changes have you seen, if any, with the cult? What is their current M.O. in your opinion? Is the cult dying out? Who will carry on the Butler sampradaya?

You are very lucky to have had a friend be so honest and blunt with you. "When did you become a bigot?" Often friends just back off and fade away as you spout the party line. Having a good family and friend network has helped a lot of people escape the CB matrix. Not everyone has that when they go in, so there is no one on the outside to help unplug them from the cult. One exer told me the story of how his family would mock him and CB when he'd come to visit. His brothers and father would wrap up in sheets and put on funny, anti-guru skits that pointed out the many hypocrisies. They created their own cult and manifesto and mantras. They called themselves the "Octavians". He says that their merciless teasing (out of love) was one of the keys that helped to liberate him from the cult. Dassi shared with me that one of her "aha" moments came when she ran into a graduate student from Berkeley who kindly spent an afternoon logically pointing out the fallacies in the philosophy. While he did not convince her to leave on the spot, his words slowly imprinted. The last thing he said to her was that she will eventually leave the cult. She did. Happily and with no regrets.

Very acute observations, Foolish Fear....and I also thank Hoax 108, Guru Doubter and Vera City for their perspicacious responses.

....as is my wont, I have shamelessly (while acknowledging the source thread!) copied your comments onto the "JC" site for the benefit of another audience....

Thank you for continuing to share your comments and experiences.....

oh nice, some new posts on this thread, I should go away more often!

So, VeraCity, thanks for your response. In my post I was thinking of the spiritual/religious aspect of the centers and how that has been watered down so much, given the intolerance for Hare Krishnas these days. Of course, as you point out, it is a business first and foremost. Yes, there must be still a loyal core of followers giving all their money to support Guru, but I don't see where new ones will come from. You just dont have the same hook with yoga, whole foods, happy little trance dances, as you do with the "spiritual suicide" threat hanging over everyone's head. Face it, that keeps people hanging around a lot longer than they might otherwise.

VeraCity wrote:

"It has been that way from the beginning. For every few hundred people coming to a center or feast, maybe one stayed on to learn. There were always people coming and going. Some stayed a week, a month, two years, 20 years or more. From what I can ascertain is that Chris learned early on that he needed to run his life and businesses in a way that did not depend on the flux/disaffection of loyal followers. I would also not underestimate the baseline level or amount of loyal followers he still has that support him financially and have seeded the businesses that have made him independently wealthy. Given the effort to win the google wars and snuff out all criticism of his cult on the WWW, shows that he still has a very large base line. People in the 70's or 80's were not less intelligent, less worldly, less skeptical. Nor were they more inclined to join a cult than today. That is just a silly notion that ignores history."

It wasn't intended to say people in the 70's were less intelligent, I am saying that the culture of the day leaned more towards accepting alternative religious practices, and trying on new things. Speaking for north america, it does seem to be a more conservative, cynical era we are in. You notice that the newer cults are all about the self. Me, me, me. If CB were starting out today, he would likely being doing a NewAge (rhymes with sewage) cult rather than a foreign blue god cult.

I do know that the north american centers have far fewer people than they did. But, as you point out, Europe, especially Eastern Europe/Russia is still on the upswing.

to Foolish Fear: I am most recently out of this cult. I had some nice friends who happened to be gay, and that was my first rebellious thought, ignore CB and still respect my gay friends. I have to admit it was difficult to reconcile the disobedience, but it saved my life. Once i had that independent thought, others followed. To this day, I haven't accidentally lost my head in a gruesome accident or anything. :) Life goes on. I have to say I was a really decent person before joining this cult, and since leaving, I have reclaimed my basic decency, and it feels pretty good.

Okay, I still laugh when I think of all the panic over health stuff. Really funny that God's closest and dearest friend would be so afraid of germs.

::laughing::

From the outside looking in, I observed how their approach to recruiting has changed. For instance in the 70s, we called the place of worship a "temple"; then that became a "center" in the 80s; now I understand they call it a "lifestyle center". I'm not sure if they still do those rock out kirtans, which was quite a draw in the 70s, but will surely weirden any crowd nowadays. They are big in offering yoga classes (tout Wai Lana's programs) not only in their lifestyle centers but to businesses and communities as well. Not sure if the recruitment is centered on that, but I won't be surprised. They seemed to have evolved from catering to hippies to yuppies and those who can get easily hooked to "exclusivity". They are also active in food fairs and vegetarian programs. They are more like "new age" group now than hindu-based religious sect, even going as far as dropping core beliefs like the chanting of the maha-mantra to a more new agey sounding madana mohana murari (incidentally sounds more like hawaiian). The fact that they are so willing to compromise key aspects of the basic Vaishnavaism, both the Gaudiya Maths and the ISKCONs are not willing to tread, just shows how business like CB is in running the show. The old timers are all well-aware of these radical and questionable changes but seem to just go along with them, just because at this point they are mere willing participants and beneficiaries; although some still cling on this illusion that there is still spirituality left in the movement. I noticed even the new recruits act and dress like yuppies and very business like, especially the core elite; and the children are very MTVish. I hope this is just a sort of a rigor mortis to a dying group. I don't underestimate the power of the information age, the knowledge base now is just too vast to keep this sort of things going, especially among the children. No matter how hard the parents try to keep the children away from schools and TVs, the amount of information available to them now is just so overwhelming, to not collide with the nonsense their parents still adhere to.

Just watched the Bellord kids projects: Karmakula and Ninjai. These kids are hungry for success. I'm sure they are aware what are denied of them. If not for their weird parents, these kids have enormous potentials. Instead, they just content themselves to underground fan base which pay them NOTHING. They could be millionaires by now, and famous, with their skills and looks, they are definitely Hollywood materials. They just can't dare enter the entertainment world otherwise they can eaten up alive by Hollywood's nasty press. All because of the weird arrangement their parents are wedded into. But if they are TRUE rebels they claim to be, then they should rebel against the LIES the parents are into, first and foremost. Otherwise they are nothing compared to what we were in the 70s. But what a waste!

Folishfear, I hope you inspire others to stop being sooooooo stupid and denied. Welcome to the real and more compassionate world.

Hi Terre and Dharma!
Been awhile, eh! Nice to see you back.

I just found this rare critical essay on Fraud Chris Butler, When the Swami Speaks
Rare, due to the Science of Identity (cults) efforts to thwart anything critical of Butler on the WWW. This article is from one of his strongholds; the Philippines.

Hi everyone,first I want to thank you all for the support!!Although I have a few loved ones that are very supportive,i feel i cant really express all that i want to or that they wont relate cause they havent been there.This forum is great and is helping me alot to process everything.People are say just move on,I am moving forward with my life although the process is happening and i will allow it to happen As it is(lol)
Many questions have been asked and ill do my best to answer them..
The timing of your post(Vera)Swami Speaks is incredible to me.Just yesterday I was thinking about what sucked me in the most and it was the "Cult Cocktail"that the article mentions..I always held great beliefs in Jesus(although i didnot attend any particular church)All the comparisons to Jesus teachings and life and that of the vedic philosophy was what drew me in the most.Because of my want for everyone(all religions)to just get along it sounded great.They always had what seemed like resonable answers to my questions concerning Jesus.However I was not a scholar in the bible so i didnot realize that Cb was misquoting,paraphrasing and essentially completely distorting the bible(yikes)
Reading the bible is helping me alot right now get back some perspective.I am actually VERY offended by these twistings of Cbs.Yesterday i decided to watch an old jagad gur video on chrisitanity.He answers NO questions but states with alot of anger that christians are animals!!he is just disgusting(yuck)and ignorant!!!
The way that i got involved was through a yoga class..I became good friends with one female disciple and developed trust in her and what she would relay to me.At first it just seemed all beautiful and very healthy which was my attraction.i would just go to kirtan and gita classes and really was pulled in by the vegetarian lifestyle.For the first 4 yrs it was just simple untill I started wanting to get more"serious"At this point i had only experienced things available to the public.I had a great desire to do service as i thought it was service to GOD!Now i started getting exposed to some lectures thast are only for"serious devotees"What i noticed first and for most was the difference in these tapes compared to the public ones.Cb uses the F word constantly in these private lectures.He makes it out like hes just "being real"or cool.I noticed that more and more he used the fword and it seemed angry toward other religions and people particularly gay people.and we would all laugh with him(yuck)like this was an acceptable behavior.This also for me tied into and was a great mind trip for me that i was told we are only angry because of lust and envy and that if we express anger it is because we are not getting what we want.I see some truth in that analogy so i didnt think much of it.One day about a year ago i was listening to a lecture I didnt like that he was cussing and talking about God at the same time.Not that i never cuss but i was brought up that cussing is not a wholesome behavior.it also bothered me that the children are taught to accept this teaching style.Ive heard many devoteee children cussing alot(hmm)cbs arrogance is just remarkable beyond belief!!I am so grateful thati have realized he is just a hypocrite!!
Speaking of hypocrite,yesterday i found an old booklet of his titled"Loneliness there is a cure"on page 24 it says"transcending misery"he states that those living a materialistic existence are always accompanied by fear of disease.Once you understand your true spiritual identity you will overcome this fear.
WOW,this is hilarious.Someone whom is supposed to be a pure lover of God and a teacher of how to overcome has not done this himself ,he is extreme OCD and his devotees cater to his paranoia and extreme fear of even the slightest sniffles(OMG)all under the guise of taking on others karma(pss)
Also i have noticed through the years more devotees taking on these characteristics.Becoming more chemically sensitive,germa phobic,ext..I have personally seen people become fanatics about the body,when at the same time the claim is were not the body and realization of that will free you from those anxieties.The saddest part of this and the biggest reasons I left was how these behaviors are also expected of the children.(more on that later)