Speaking of chanting - I still really enjoy listening to mantras and this is usually the music of choice - especially when I am driving in my vehicle.

I don't listen to FL or his group anymore though. I have been listening to mostly Jai Uttal, Krishna das, and Bhagavan das. I believe all were devotees of Neem Karoli Baba. I have to admit that some of the chants are beautiful and inspiring.

I also enjoy Deva Premal's chanting but I think she and her partner Miten are devotees of Osho, who I think is a bogey yogi. They are also into some tantra/mantra trip which seems consistent with being devotees of Osho.

Anyway, back to Neem Karoli Baba (NKB). I recall a lecture where FL was talking about being in India and I know he talked about going and chanting for some guru and his devotees and I think it was NKB. The story kinda went that the guru and his disciples were very impressed with FLs' chanting and so on.

However, from the tone of the lecture, you were led to believe that NKB was an impersonalist and not an advanced devotee etc. Of course we were strictly forbidden to listen to any chanting from his devotees or read anything about NKB because we would be poisoned and offensive and so on ad nauseum infinitum.

From what I've read on the internet, NKB did not appear to be an impersonalist at all. And he seems to be well respected and received good ratings on the "guru" scale. He got much better ratings than ACB.

Another case of FL hiding and/or distorting the truth? What is this - guru politics?

I am going to continue to listen to these devotees chant and enjoy it. If anyone can recommend some other chanting CDs that they really enjoy, feel free to share them. I think that hearing the Holy Names chanted by someone other than FL and knowing that it is not poisoning you is part of the healing process. Thank you Krishna.

There is now a famous chanter named Krishna das who plays all over the west. He is very popular and his chanting is well received. He chants mostly the Maha Mantra but is not affiliated with any organization. I think he has an impersonalist guru.

I do not know anything about the Baba you mentioned so will not comment on him.

The thing widely misunderstood in FL’s cult is what impersonalism is. The idea that FL had achieved the Brahman is utter non-sense. At best he got some LSD vision of a dimensions beyond the normal. He is NOT a Brahman realized sadhu. That was used to give him more credentials. He does not really know much about the Brahman.

It is not that Brahman realization is a bad thing. In fact there are two different types of impersonalist. One called a Brahmanandi and the other a Mayavadi. Of course the Gaudiyas reject the Mayavadis who have concluded they ARE God. But, there are many respected saints who do not claim to be God, those who have achieved impersonal realization of God. Who have realized His wonder in an impersonal way. These great souls are not considered to be against God. Paramahamsa Yogananda was one of them. When I was with FL I was taught every impersonalist was a demon and they were all bad. But in fact ACB had great respect for Paramahamsa Yogananda and George Harrison continued to distribute his books long after he became inclined toward Gaudiya vaishnavism. But suffice it to say to label every impersonalist a demon is not the Gaudiya Vaishnava mentality at all. It is like labeling every Christian a demon or every Jew a demon or every Moslem a demon. It holds no weight in higher circles with those who know the all encompassing mercy of the Supreme Lord.

I just wanted you all to know that these discussions have given me much food for thought.

Do you remember being taught the difference between a religion and a cult? If I remember correctly, it was that a religion/spiritual path/truth was based on a philosophy while a cult was centered around an specific individual. Of course this was meant to show us that we were not a cult. Wrong-o

This is very depressing.

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terrenaut
I just wanted you all to know that these discussions have given me much food for thought.

Do you remember being taught the difference between a religion and a cult? If I remember correctly, it was that a religion/spiritual path/truth was based on a philosophy while a cult was centered around an specific individual. Of course this was meant to show us that we were not a cult. Wrong-o

This is very depressing.

terrenaut, many of us went through the depressed stage. It will pass. What is important to know is there is a support system for you. That support system can be found in different places. The world outside of FL's cult is not a dark place.

There is a lot of information on cults here at this website.

Cults like to limit information and that is a key tactic in FL's cult. It is a way to keep people in illusion. But the fact that you are still reading this thread means you must be on your way out. Good luck. Good things will come to you if you leave, I am sure of that.

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hoax108
Regarding the homophobia - before I left I remember some lectures that were quite explicit. Apparently this is getting worse.

Is this consistent with his technique of propping up straw dogs and knocking them down? I remember an earlier poster commenting quite nicely on this technique of his but I can't recall who the poster was.

That poster was none other than Zelig! :wink: I also liked his analogy of making straw men and knocking them down. It seems right on.

Regarding the incessant references to homosexuals and the gross acts then engage in:

Surely someone who is constantly experiencing the Supreme Personality of Godhead would be focusing more on [b:40eacb4f47]God's pastimes[/b:40eacb4f47] instead of focusing on the pastimes of a minority group of gay men?

There was one occasion where the Fearless Leader criticized one of his followers for singing "La la la" in one of their commercial recordings instead of using every valuable breath for chanting Hare Krishna, etc.

Surely this same argument could be used against FL himself for constantly raising this homosexuality issue instead of something more Godly?

:?:

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quotesman

I think for some of us it was actually torture to force ourselves to go to a gathering and chant.

Hey bro, I can totally relate to that statement.
Especially in Honolulu at the famous "headquarters"
Seems that there was such a hierarchy developing then.
It was quite uncomfortable and it was a relief to get out!

One outsider came into a rambunctious Haribol chant one time and said "How can that be spiritual?" Of course, the FL did not want to consider that person's point of view.

Other ordinary people I have met over the years also have stated that they preferred the mellow harmonium with Indian drums, as opposed to the "scream and shout" with electric guitars etc.

There was a kind of hysteria with some of the devotees,
especially the more fanatical ones.
One time the Fearless Leader wanted to make French toast for the Queen bee
Some of the devotees were hysterically running around the DTE store gathering bread and jam for the Royal Couple.

Spooky. Weird.
:?

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just-googling

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quotesman

I think for some of us it was actually torture to force ourselves to go to a gathering and chant.

Hey bro, I can totally relate to that statement.
Especially in Honolulu at the famous "headquarters"
Seems that there was such a hierarchy developing then.
It was quite uncomfortable and it was a relief to get out!

One outsider came into a rambunctious Haribol chant one time and said "How can that be spiritual?" Of course, the FL did not want to consider that person's point of view.

Other ordinary people I have met over the years also have stated that they preferred the mellow harmonium with Indian drums, as opposed to the "scream and shout" with electric guitars etc.

There was a kind of hysteria with some of the devotees,
especially the more fanatical ones.
One time the Fearless Leader wanted to make French toast for the Queen bee
Some of the devotees were hysterically running around the DTE store gathering bread and jam for the Royal Couple.

Spooky. Weird.
:?

Very spooky indeed. Yea the chants got way hysterical, nothing much spiritual about that at all. Just a mere shadow or reflection of the real thing. FL and the queen bee became the deity in that cult.

And the homophobia thing is really weird too. Zelig was right about Fl making straw men.

The fact of the matter is, and don't get me wrong here I am no gay activist, but the truth is in Vedic times the third gender was NOT demonized. In fact they were respected and even asked to give blessings at Vedic sacrifices. Even in the Caitanya Caritamrta there is mention of servants of Lord Jagannath who were neither male nor female. Mahaprabhu Himself was aware of these third gendered souls and did not condemn or demonize them. That whole thing FL created has nothing at all to do with the Vaishnava religion. His take on homosex is really perverted and disgusting.

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But the fact that you are still reading this thread means you must be on your way out. Good luck. Good things will come to you if you leave, I am sure of that.

I am not really thinking of leaving but that may come, for sure. I guess that is part of the process. My real hope is that the people involved, the real Vaishnavas, will see that change needs to happen and make it so.

They say you will go to hell for criticizing Guru, but I think you are in far worse shape if you never ask the critical questions.

Many things are wrong. Is there any hope they can be fixed? Comments?

I usually preferred the more mellow chants as well. Nothing wrong with a nice enthusiastic rock out on occasion though, with lots of dancing. Good clean fun.

I've heard at many gatherings these days the younger guys have a mosh pit during chants. I find this extremely irritating. And not spiritual.

Terrenaut - you are not going to go to hell for criticizing FL. That is just "cult-speak". I actually don't feel you are being critical - you are just asking reasonable questions. Unfortunately, you are not getting reasonable answers from SIF.

Regarding hell - I think where a person goes when they leave their bodies is a personal issue between them and God. Where are your attachments? If your heart tells you that you will NOT become more attached to loving and serving God through FL then leave.

Pray to the Lord in your heart - you will get answers. It worked for me.

I recall a lecture where FL was saying that a devotee observed that she had been "chanting and dancing for over 5 years until her feet were raw" and yet she felt that she had not made any spiritual advancement.

FL was, of course, very critical of her. His instruction was not to expect to "get anything out of it". I think he keeps his devotees in line by preaching in this way. They keep thinking that as long as they are serving him, chanting their rounds, and keeping the 4 Regs they will get to Krishna.

For their sake, I hope their right. For my sake, I think that you should be able to gauge your process in spiritual life and identify areas you need to work on.

Here's an example from Christianity but it works for any bona fide path:
Here are the fruits of the spirit that can be obtained through faith and trust in God and overcoming temptation (sin): love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

See how you measure up to these virtues and ask yourself if following FL is going to help your spiritual life bear fruit. For God meant our spiritual lives to bear abundant fruit.

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terrenaut

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But the fact that you are still reading this thread means you must be on your way out. Good luck. Good things will come to you if you leave, I am sure of that.

I am not really thinking of leaving but that may come, for sure. I guess that is part of the process. My real hope is that the people involved, the real Vaishnavas, will see that change needs to happen and make it so.

They say you will go to hell for criticizing Guru, but I think you are in far worse shape if you never ask the critical questions.

Many things are wrong. Is there any hope they can be fixed? Comments?

Terrenaut,

What you and everyone else in the cult do not know is there have been attempts by some of FL godbrothers outside his cult to help him. I am not going to give the details for obvious reasons. But the attempts never panned out and even became quite distasteful the way he treated some of his godbrothers. What is needed for change in that group is for FL himself to seek help from more senior vaishnavas, in other words he needs a shiksa guru very badly. But the problem is he thinks he is the topmost guru and would never bow down to another. That has been the problem from the beginning. He could never even bow down to his own guru and just went about doing what FL wanted to do, not what ACB wanted him to do. In FL own words which I heard directly, " I HAVE MY OWN WAY OF DOING THINGS!!!."
So as long as he maintains that superior attitude things will most likely deteriorate more and more. This is generally the case. When he is gone the only hope for those who are left would be to seek the shiksa of a more qualified guru. If I were you and not planning to leave I would begin to read the books of other living acharyas. Then you will begin to see the big difference between what FL is doing and the behavior of a bona-fide guru in the line.

Hoax, concerning the rock out kirtans. My point is that it should not be the standard. A rock and roll kirtan is not a bad thing, but when it dominates it is. When this is done before the deity regularly as the standard may be considered a deviation from the line. And the screaming and shouting is just that, screaming and shouting, not anything spiritual about screaming and shouting. The hysteria is not the real thing. It is a form of sahajiyaism. Just like some one pretends to cry for Krishna or rolls on the ground pretending to have some ecstasy. The hysteria is a put on.