Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
quotesman
()
Date: September 28, 2007 07:35AM
Quote
hoax108
Quotesman - another good point about FL (I now refer to him as such) with regards to marrying his disciple. Didn't Lord Nityananda get married and have kids later on? Seems to ring a bell with me.
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I think I may be treading on thin ice here and do not want to get into trouble with Rick Ross and others for preaching but I think some things must be mentioned in order to qualify fearless leaders deviations. The fact of the matter, (and this is reiterated by all senior Gaudiya Vaishnava Gurus), is that Nityananda was never a sannyasi. There is mention in scripture that he had a danda. But at that time all bramacharya students carried a danda (stick). The danda is not only the sign of a sannyasi, it is also the sign of a brahmacharya (celibate student). He was a bramhacharya but never took sannyasa. There is also joking about Nityananda being a fallen sannyasis in the Caitanya Caritamrta. But that is just a pastime and it is said in a joking manner. Haridas Thakur is also mentioned in these pastimes and he was not a sannyasi and everyone knows that. It would have been impossible for him to take sannyasa at that time being born in a Moslem family. This is a long subject matter. But suffice it to say this idea put forward by fearless leader and his followers is just one more of the deviations that is taught in that cult. In fact according to Gaudiya Vaishnava Acharyas the only people who preach that Nityananda was a sannyasi are sahajiyas who want to live lives of sensual enjoyment with the opposite sex after having vowed to give up such enjoyments. People who want to break the rules. It may also be considered how anyone could compare themselves to Nityananda Prabhu who is considered none other than the Supreme Lord? That in itself would be considered a deviation. To cite the life of Nityananda Prabhu as an example of one breaking sannyasa holds absolutely no weight within the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya. Had fearless leader had the association of senior members of the sampradaya, had he been able to hear from them and bow his head in humility to those much, much more advanced in spiritual wisdom and understanding of the Gaudiya line, he and his followers would never have made such a fallacious and absurd claim that he was following the example of Nityananda Prabhu. Nityananda was an avadhuta but he was never a sannyasi.
Note: There is nothing wrong with a guru being married and having a family. And there is nothing wrong with household life in Krishna Consciousness. There are countless examples of married gurus. However there is something gravely wrong with taking vows to give up family life, taking on the ashram of sannyasa and then breaking it. This does not go over well in the Gaudiya Vaishnava line. This is not the example of an acharya. Such a person should remove titles like Jagad Guru or Acharya from their names.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
quotesman
()
Date: September 28, 2007 07:51AM
Quote
DassiQuote
quotesman
Leaving Fearless Leader does not mean leaving spiritual life, in fact for some it may be the beginning of their spiritual life.
THANK YOU FOR THIS COMMENT!
I no longer follow the Vaishnava system,
but respect any one, religious or not
who lives a righteous life;
Being kind to animals and children,
Doing good works or charity for others,
works on improving themselves and everything around them,
plants a garden where none existed before,
random acts of kindness,
stuff like that.
All this talk of our spiritual demise and death was a Sidd invention.
PS- It is so refreshing to have a civil forum where people can exchange ideas without being jammed or driven off!
thanks to all of you who are playing nice on this forum!
I know I am not the only one who appreciates it.
You are very welcome dassi.
If one is leading a pious life regardless of what garb of religion they wear, or even no garb, in my opinion they are going forward spiritually.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
Dassi
()
Date: September 28, 2007 08:06AM
I can only speak for myself.Quote
Harry Bol
Is there anything that the people here want to achieve?
This forum has been a great place for me to sort out my experiences in the cult and to come to understand the many stages and changes one goes through. It's been a place to share, learn, laugh, make friends, and get over a traumatic past. I'm also here to testify to what I experienced, (which was not favorable) and offer up my opinions. Take it or leave it.
I was never on a crusade to take down a cult, destroy lives and businesses. I was accused of being an apologist for having this opinion, which is totally off the mark and unfair.
I have no doubt people can follow even the goofiest beliefs and practices and still be good people, but what I know of FL's trip, most likely you are being abused and used. I used to think I was happy too. The psychological phenomenon of denial is something to look at and test.Quote
Ultimately we trust that we have a quality of life here that while it is not perfect, in our opinions, it is better than anything else. We are all trying to live our lives the same as you are living yours now.
Quote
Dassi you say that all the exes you know - how many would that be really? I know many many devotees, numbering into the hundreds, that are also very happy and would not have their life any other way. I know that there are many devotees that have their disagreements and questions and frustrations with the way that things are as well. I know a few ex-members that are not happy at all that they are ex-members simply because they still want what to them was the good parts of being a devotee but just couldn't live with the bad....
Even when devotees do the "wrong" thing they are at least trying to uphold certain values, values that are not necessarily of concern to non devotees.
No doubt there is truth to what you say here.
Those that stay have made their choice. I don't agree that it is such a wholesome lifestyle as I saw practiced in FL's cult. I think zelig and others brought up the point that there are certain unalienable and universal rights of children (and adults) that are not being honored by FL's cult. That said, zelig and I both lobbied against revealing names and addresses and attempts to destroy businesses and lives where children and families are dependent. Attack the ideas, attack the philosophy, attack actual criminal activities and civil rights violations -- YES.
I find your use of the phrase, "...values that are not necessarily of concern to non devotees" a bit disturbing. It's like a big MYOB (mind your own business)! Sorry, it sounds like the same old "us" vs "them" philosophy that separates peoples and nations from time immemorial. It is used to frame a separate morality or allows for a group or cult to create its own standards outside of Universal Laws or norms common to all religious faiths. This type of idea has been used to rationalize forced marriages and rapes for 14 year old girls in some sub-sect of the mormon church. It covers up abuses by Catholic priest child predators. It's used to deprive children from a proper secular education or medical care. It makes a certain society accept female circumcism (mutilation) or suffocation by burkahs as normal! The examples are endless.
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ex-members that are not happy at all that they are ex-members simply because they still want what to them was the good parts of being a devotee but just couldn't live with the bad....
Even when devotees do the "wrong" thing they are at least trying to uphold certain values
I too was in this same boat once. I still hold some of the same values, actually a lot better now. But I found that I never needed FL or the group to live my life and uphold my values. It was actually easier and happier without FL and the group to gum up the works (critical thinking skills and freedom of faith).
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
quotesman
()
Date: September 28, 2007 09:13AM
Quote
"Dassi"Quote
quotesman
PS- It is so refreshing to have a civil forum where people can exchange ideas without being jammed or driven off!
thanks to all of you who are playing nice on this forum!
I know I am not the only one who appreciates it.
Ditto :D
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
quotesman
()
Date: September 28, 2007 10:02AM
Quote
hoax108
Quotesman - another good point about FL (I now refer to him as such) with regards to marrying his disciple. Didn't Lord Nityananda get married and have kids later on? Seems to ring a bell with me.
I was quite amazed at the strong evidence that FL never followed the instructions of ACB.
In his lectures he always made it seem that he was so devoted to him. But then he had to because a guru always surrenders to his guru.
Terrenaut commented on following in her Spiritual Masters footsteps - yes, that is proper conduct in spiritual life. However, one of the roles of a Vaishnava guru is to prepare other disciples for this role. It doesn't appear that FL is doing this at all.
Actually, he just grooms disciples to become his puppets in the U.S. Senate. What are his motives for doing this? Are they pure or devious? The methods used to get his puppets elected certainly have been devious.
Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati once said the duty of a guru is NOT to make disciples, his duty is to make Gurus. But in FL's cult everyone was condemned to be the eternal neophyte. Except of course a few CHOSEN ones who all seemed to have vanished. He would condemn others for having big titles or even small titles. He once criticized a godbrother because the godbrother was being called acharya. One devotee once said, ‘what title has he left for others, he has taken them all!!!”. And you are correct he never actually followed his own guru. On many cases he did the exact opposite of what his guru asked him to do. So one may question and doubt that he actually ever followed his own guru. . Just with what was recorded there is a strong case that FL never actually surrendered. If you just read what his own guru said about him that is strong evidence. Of course that is why no one is allowed to look in the folio of Swami Bhaktivedanta or to listen to other accounts of his time in ISKCON. The politically correct thing to say when I was there was that anything negative said about FL was made up but anything positive was the truth. In fact both things were said but the leanings were way more to the negative side. In fact Swami Bhaktivedanta was NOT very pleased with FL and his behavior from the beginning. And he made it VERY CLEAR that FL should remain a sannyasi. When asked by one of FL followers if he could stay with FL the answer was it was ok as long as he followed the rules of sannyasa, including shaved head wearing the cloth etc. This stuff is all in the folio.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
terrenaut
()
Date: September 28, 2007 11:31AM
Quote
This stuff is all in the folio
How does one read this folio?
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
MeanReds
()
Date: September 28, 2007 12:13PM
Harry Bol,
Out of curiosity why have you come on this forum? Do you accept Siddhaswarupananada as a bona-fide spiritual master or do you just like the lifestyle of ASM and you are not overly convinced?
What is your view of people that are attempting to create awareness of the negative aspects of your organistion? You say that this attempt has become somewhat distressing to ASM/SIF yet you yourself don't seem overly concerned.
The reason I ask is that your posts don't seem negative towards ASM but you also don't portray them as completely positive either. Rarely does a current follower admit to being in ASM/SIF on this forum and even less commonly do they appear open and non-confrontational. It would be great to hear your opinion of what ASM actually is and does.
I'm not sure that anyone expects that ASM/SIF will cease existing, just like scientology has had decades of opposition yet still recruits followers. The aim is more to collect and provide information so that the public and new followers have access to indepth an alternate viewpoints to explain what they may be getting involved in if they consider joining ASM. Also businesses that are owned by SIF/ASM are completely hiding the fact that they are run by a religious organisation and government representatives go as far as to lie about being members. ASM/SIF recruitment centers also hide the fact that they are disciples of Siddha and that they are connected to SIF or, as you mentioned, that they are even a religious organisation. This attempt from what you are saying has at least changed certain aspect such as the "non-sectarian" lie. If the attempt to expose them also has the effect of causing more honesty in the organisation that is a positive step in my opinion.
Long-term current followers would already be aware of much of the information about the cult and it may help to know that others have left and do not approve of the organisation. It would be difficult to convince much of ASM members to leave if their lives and family are greatly intertwined into the ASM community. If an individual left and gave up vaishnavism and wished to maintain contact with their family that should be perfectly acceptable, although I am sure that it would be the ASM members who decide that further contact would not be possible. Outside of that there are no legal issues and it would be up to the individual to decide whether keeping their family or leaving ASM is more important. This is a reflection however on the fanaticism of the organisation that they find it difficult to associate with people who are not of the same belief system as their own and simply more reason to leave.
It is a difficult situation to be in when your whole family are involved and is part of the reason why informing people before they join that they may end up losing their whole family to this cult is so important.
Out of curiosity why have you come on this forum? Do you accept Siddhaswarupananada as a bona-fide spiritual master or do you just like the lifestyle of ASM and you are not overly convinced?
What is your view of people that are attempting to create awareness of the negative aspects of your organistion? You say that this attempt has become somewhat distressing to ASM/SIF yet you yourself don't seem overly concerned.
The reason I ask is that your posts don't seem negative towards ASM but you also don't portray them as completely positive either. Rarely does a current follower admit to being in ASM/SIF on this forum and even less commonly do they appear open and non-confrontational. It would be great to hear your opinion of what ASM actually is and does.
I'm not sure that anyone expects that ASM/SIF will cease existing, just like scientology has had decades of opposition yet still recruits followers. The aim is more to collect and provide information so that the public and new followers have access to indepth an alternate viewpoints to explain what they may be getting involved in if they consider joining ASM. Also businesses that are owned by SIF/ASM are completely hiding the fact that they are run by a religious organisation and government representatives go as far as to lie about being members. ASM/SIF recruitment centers also hide the fact that they are disciples of Siddha and that they are connected to SIF or, as you mentioned, that they are even a religious organisation. This attempt from what you are saying has at least changed certain aspect such as the "non-sectarian" lie. If the attempt to expose them also has the effect of causing more honesty in the organisation that is a positive step in my opinion.
Long-term current followers would already be aware of much of the information about the cult and it may help to know that others have left and do not approve of the organisation. It would be difficult to convince much of ASM members to leave if their lives and family are greatly intertwined into the ASM community. If an individual left and gave up vaishnavism and wished to maintain contact with their family that should be perfectly acceptable, although I am sure that it would be the ASM members who decide that further contact would not be possible. Outside of that there are no legal issues and it would be up to the individual to decide whether keeping their family or leaving ASM is more important. This is a reflection however on the fanaticism of the organisation that they find it difficult to associate with people who are not of the same belief system as their own and simply more reason to leave.
It is a difficult situation to be in when your whole family are involved and is part of the reason why informing people before they join that they may end up losing their whole family to this cult is so important.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
quotesman
()
Date: September 28, 2007 12:30PM
Quote
terrenautQuote
This stuff is all in the folio
How does one read this folio?
It can be purchased. [krishna.tv]
You may also try to get a copy of Hari Sauri's Diary "A Transcendental Diary". There is some pretty revealing stuff said by him.
Of course those inside the cult will say all these negative things said are all made up. But I can tell you from personal experience after talking to many devotees who were around that the story is basically the same from every angle. Siddhaswarupa never really surrendered to his guru or did what his guru wanted him to do. The people I have heard this from in many cases are not at all envious of FL, in fact many of them are his well wishers and really would like him to move forward. Of course some are envious also. But the story is overwhelmingly the same as told by those outside the cult. Of course all these books and even the Folio are considered contraband by FL and his followers. For obvious reasons.
Read it all at your own risk, the risk of finding out the actual truth about Siddhaswarupa.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
MeanReds
()
Date: September 28, 2007 02:52PM
[u:1578acb824]Some People Don't Have Brains![/u:1578acb824]
Siddha has some unusual sources for his scientific evidence or he makes it up as he goes along.
This snippet of a Siddha lecture discusses individuals born without a brain whatsoever who go on to lead normal and successful lives. Even 'straight A' students he claims.
[www.scienceofidentity.org]
Siddha has some unusual sources for his scientific evidence or he makes it up as he goes along.
This snippet of a Siddha lecture discusses individuals born without a brain whatsoever who go on to lead normal and successful lives. Even 'straight A' students he claims.
[www.scienceofidentity.org]
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
just-googling
()
Date: September 28, 2007 04:48PM
Quote
terrenaut
Anyway, I find the constant references to homosexuality really disturbing. On every lecture tape it seems to come up, in graphic and disturbing detail, for what purpose? to shock and offend? why is homosexuality singled out as the prime offense in the material world? Are there no other problems out there? Why are young kids being encouraged to think in terms of hate, in the instance of homosexuality in particular?
Comments?
terre
There is definitely something spooky with the infatuation with homophobia (it seems to be contagious as well -- some of the "brainwashed" followers also have the same infatuation)... I wonder if God really cares about what kind of a hole a fellah sticks his anatomy into???
Another infatuation seems to be his health and comfort. This also seems to be exaggerated and "off the wall" and again contagious to the point that some followers are more concerned about HIS comfort than the health and welfare of their own children.
:?
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