PrivateEye wrote :

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The thread has been removed. Apparently the India Divine site is pro Chris Butler.

Hmmm.. IndiaDivine is the only source of video lectures for Jihad Guru on the net - with no lectures by anyone else. It is exactly the sort of website that SoI would put up favouring the covert method and certainly not above using the mask of Hinduism when it suits them.

Chris Butler is not well regarded at all in the Vaishnava community. ISKCON is still the largest organisation that there is and he has made their hostility towards them well known. Narayan Maharaja's followers will likely never forgive him for threatening Guru-dev and there are a few more that I would rather not name. Devotee world is not all that big and word gets around.

The thread being removed is a good thing - because it proves that they ARE watching here (again) and still they aren't doing anything of substance. They can't defend their guru or his teachings - please be assurred by she who cannot name her contacts this is not going unnoticed.

[b:bb4e7e908b]Fact:[/b:bb4e7e908b] Neither MJZ hosting or a friend who had been in touch daily has heard from Cara since May 4.

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[www.mjzcollaboration.net]

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klikme - 17/04/07 14:22:19
The site chriskcon.com is down. Is it something that we should be concerned about?
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matt - 17/04/07 15:15:26
That's odd... I'm not sure what is going on just yet, nor have I been notified about anything, but the entire "public_html" directory has been removed from the webspace (which could be the work of the NOC, but also Cara of course... hopefully not through coercion of any sort). The website itself is still resolving. Maybe it's just being edited or something. I'll wait for word from Cara before I investigate further...
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matt - 17/04/07 15:35:49
Well, I have a backup of the website so I've archived it and transferred it into the temporary safe-keeping of a separate NOC (just in case the cult did somehow manage to convince the FITX abuse team to remove the content -- this wouldn't surprise me at all).
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klikme - 17/04/07 15:58:50
Thanks Matt for the quick response. I'll wait then as it's still early morning in the Goldcoast. By the way, in case it was successfully put down, is it possible to put up a mirror site under another operation?
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matt - 17/04/07 18:58:51
Yes, absolutely, we have a few more NOCs to try still... if it was in fact FITX that took it down. Although I'm still not sure about that. NOC abuse agents are never really all that great on the communication side of things, but like cult agents, they usually do send impersonal threats listing the "offense" one has made and a time limit to resolve the matter. It's unlikely that they would act without saying a word... but you never know.
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klikme - 17/04/07 19:36:45
Thanks again. You can contact me personally for whatever effort I could contribute in bringing back the website. My heartfelt gratitude for all your support to anti-cult activism.
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matt - 20/04/07 08:25:27
Looks like this was just a false alarm... for now.
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[b:bb4e7e908b]cara - 21/04/07 17:57:33
I appreciate that MJZ has provided www.chriskcon.com with free hosting. I would however appreciate if this arrangement could be brought to an end. I am not able to access the site myself due to having a tech support team that is going against what I want to do and not even any access to my own cpanel because they keep changing the passwords. As the person who founded Chriskcon I want nothing more to do with it and I would like the arrangement to be ended. Thank-you again Matt. I have sent you a private email in this regard so that you can be assured that this is not a hoax. [/b:bb4e7e908b]
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klikme - 13/05/07 18:13:25
Something is really fishy going on with that site, and cara is not communicating. The site has been dead for two weeks now, whether it is deliberate or sabotaged, the site is history. Somebody gave in to the pressure of the cult. Sad!
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matt - 05/05/07 18:55:42
After a brief hiatus, chriskcon.com is back online (false alarm above)! cultofbutler.com, possibly a more potent choosing of domain names, has also been registered to point to the same space.
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matt - 14/05/07 08:53:08
Hmm, I spoke to her last on May 4th but I haven't really checked into things since...

[b:bb4e7e908b]Fact:[/b:bb4e7e908b] unusual post on RR a month earlier - Ashleigh “emntk” has not posted (at least under this name) on RR since this post.

Quote

Posted: 04-03-2007 05:12 PM

This is just to let everyone know that Ashliegh Rice has been locked out of Chriskcon for conspiring with the enemy and will not be back. No one who has ever sent me any email should worry about it because I have always maintained confidentiality and the integrity of any contact information ever given to me is intact. I have changed my email password as well as an added precaution. There will be no updates for a couple of days because of media commitments. Apart from this good stuff happening and I hope that people will take up and continue to support this cause.

[b:bb4e7e908b]Fact:[/b:bb4e7e908b] Cara has made claims that she was allegedly attacked in an attempted rape and that her computer was destroyed. She also claimed that CB follower and former love interest was behind the attacks or claimed to order them.

[b:bb4e7e908b]Fact:][/b:bb4e7e908b] On Chriskcon Cara or someone posing as Cara posted a thread saying something like “I want nothing to do with this website, it’s not the way to go”.

[b:bb4e7e908b]Fact:[/b:bb4e7e908b] Chriskcon / Cultof Butler website is no longer available.

[b:bb4e7e908b]Fact:[/b:bb4e7e908b] Ashleigh Rice, alleged sister of Cara’s love interest and “bestest” friend of Cara was never named in the letter from SOI lawyer (copy scanned on Chriskcon website), in spite of fact she supposedly made extensive contributions to the website. Cara posts on RR that Ashleigh betrayed her and then on the Chriskcon forum she claims they talk every day and are still best friends and was only trying to protect her.

[b:bb4e7e908b]Fact:[/b:bb4e7e908b] A person named Caris is posting on a Skeptic website, one of Ashleigh’s interests.

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[www.skepticforum.com]
A poster on this forum called Mathew Scott Fitsgarrett offers up some good advice to 'caris' on this forum.

[b:bb4e7e908b]Fact:[/b:bb4e7e908b] Most of “cultreporter’s” recent posts sound suspiciously similar to “emntk’s” style and topics of interest and research.

[b:bb4e7e908b]Fact:[/b:bb4e7e908b] Cara or someone(s) calling herself Cara started several blogs and websites, all of which disappeared by design or otherwise. She has claimed responsibility for Chriskcon, then she claimed that she does not run the site or implied there were others helping her, then she claims other people took over control, and then claims to dismiss herself from the endeavor.

[b:bb4e7e908b]Fact:[/b:bb4e7e908b] Cara has claimed all along that she is a “devotee” and a follower of Krishna or Nrishimhadev and claims to have had a vision of the lion incarnation and on a divinely inspired mission to expose SOI. Other places she has entertained the idea of starting her own “mission”.

[b:bb4e7e908b]Fact:[/b:bb4e7e908b] Cara refused to share information on the RR site that has disappeared on the Chriskcon site and advertised her website (a pro-krishna consciousness website) in most every post on the RR forum.

[b:bb4e7e908b]Fact:[/b:bb4e7e908b] I just saw the video “Sybil”.

[b:bb4e7e908b]Fact:[/b:bb4e7e908b] Games are to be expected, but not wanted on the internet, but par for the course.

[b:bb4e7e908b]Hope:[/b:bb4e7e908b] Most of us here hopes that no one has been harmed because of trying to expose a malicious and dangerous cult.

[b:bb4e7e908b] Fact:[/b:bb4e7e908b] Cults are still bad for your health.

Has it occurred to anyone else that maybe the cult of chris is just addicted to drama?

What can I say guys? I did actually get a video camera and I have been planning on making a video of me talking for the site - now it would seem an especially good idea.

If by friend that has been in touch daily you mean someone who is the same age as my father - 20 years older than me who professes to be in love with me at the same time as lobbying for me to give all this cult activism up and move across the world to marry them then yes I have not been in touch with them. I have a friend or ten that I have met who are ex members who in my opinion are in much more potential danger than I who I have not heard from for a few months. Yes I do worry about them, and I try to get in touch with them, but the fact that this guy has gone out of his way to stir up controversy should give some sort of hint as to his mental state. As I am sure that everyone has got the impression I am a romantic to the point of foolishness, not interested in finding a father figure. This person has been very careless about their own connections to the cult which I know very well they do not want to be exposed and I fully respect that as I do with everyone, but their outspokeness and spontaneous bravado has provoked interest that they do not want. If for no other reason him and I could certainly never be together because marrying the anatgonist of SoI would blow his cover. Along with invitations to ashramas and offers of initiation I also get marriage proposals now which is an unexpected consequence of being an aspiring cult activist. The experience has proven to be a story in itself.

I am certainly sorry if I have caused anyone any concern, I have realised in the past few days that I did apparently underestimate the level of interest and concern for my wellbeing when my phone started ringing from people wanting to see that I am ok.

The situation with Ashleigh - and I am sitting with her right now eating cake is that she has two members of her family in the cult, her mother and her brother, which is really all the family that she has. I have been extremely worried since this all started that Ashleigh would be targetted by the cult and tried to insist with her that she distance herself and at the very least feign no involvement. She is as stubborn as I am though and determined that we stick together.

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[b:948710c59f]Fact:[/b:948710c59f] Cara has made claims that she was allegedly attacked in an attempted rape and that her computer was destroyed. She also claimed that CB follower and former love interest was behind the attacks or claimed to order them.

This is something that I wrote about this a few weeks ago. Besides this I still have threatening text messages from Kruciam Paramahamsa from his registered phone number and a photo of him that I snapped on my mobile phone when there was another incident where he attacked me outside of the place where I was living on 13th April. This was reported to the police via 000 and the number plate of the car that a person that I believe was his son was driving was given to the police. The attempted rape happened on 13th February. Brendon Rice admitted his knowledge of this to me on the 26th April since he had recently tried to resume contact with me at the instigation of Radha Krishna das, the chain of events which is on the chriskcon site under SoI tries to bribe opposition.

In a very depressed state of mind which is not at all helped by the fact that I have severe Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, which was diagnosed ten years ago and has only been made a lot worse as a result of my expeiences within SoI I attempted to take my own life, got some help and decided that I needed a little space for myself at the moment, not because I am not serious or because I have given up but because I thought that the better health I am able to be in the better job I am able to do, so we have been doing the grunt type of stuff researching etc which while it slows down the site updates is a neccessity. I have also been organising a project which I hope will demonstrate my seriousness when it is presented in the near future.

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If the level of progress can be measured by the level of opposition the effort receives then it would appear that the mission to expose Chris Butler and his cult is doing very well so far.
It is unfortunate that as people who claim to be Vaishnavas following someone who they claim to be certain is a bonafide spiritual master have resorted to tactics of manipulation, intimidation and violence so quickly. The invitation for public debate or at the very least answers to questions that have been posed or substantiated legal reckonings has been ignored in favour of a response which only stands to make SoI more resemble a dangerous and destructive cult.
On 28th of March I was sitting in my room on my bed working on my computer. It was around 10 pm when my door opened and a man stepped inside. As usual I did not have the light on at night because I had been made aware that with my late hours writing the light was a nuisance to other residents. The room, which is only very small, was dimly lit by the laptop monitor.
He would have been late twenties at least, more likely somewhere around his mid thirties, stood around six foot, caucasian appearance with brown skin, short dark hair very short. He was wearing dark blue jeans loose fitting jeans, the kind that gangster types seem to favour in rap music videos, and a dark blue plain T-shirt. I supposse the closest that one can get to wearing all black without actually wearing all black. I had never seen him before in my life.
As I turned to see him come in he said in a calm, even voice "Don't make any noise, I just have a message for you." I noticed that his right hand was in his pocket and he looked to have something there, or at least was doing a passable impression of someone who did. He continued "I'm a friend of Brendon's.."
In the few minutes that all this happened my mind was coming up with all sorts of things. I was wondering if I did make any noise how much this person would be able to hurt me before anyone came, if anyone even did. I had just been outside and not seen anyone around, not even a light on. On a Wednesday the street was always deserted at this time of night. I wondered if he had a knife. It was a relief to hear this name because despite everything I have never been afraid of him or thought that he would hurt me.
"He's a nice guy. He has a son you know."
The way I was sitting, cross legged on the bed with my back to the door I was looking at him over my shoulder. I nodded slightly and this obviously upset him. He made a sharp gesture with his left hand "Don't look at me, look over there." I looked at the computer.
"Don't you know how offensive all this is. You're driving yourself straight into hell. You got a letter telling you to take that website down, take the fucking thing down. No-one believes what you say, no-one cares, no-one will help you. The cops are on our side. If you keep going we are going to come back and shoot you."
He had been pacing slightly as he delievered this. The room didn't allow for much. As it was the door was next to the bed with about a metre between the bed and the wall. Just looking at the keys on the computer I didn't see him move quickly to emphasise his last words by sending a fist flying past my right shoulder straight into the monitor screen. The impact made only a thud and a slight cruch. As a plasma screen it didn't explode or even shatter except internally. It immediately went all white with the point of impact and the cracks emphasised in black.
Just as quickly he flung open the door and I heard the faint sounds of him running off.
All of this became Police Event Number 29721623. I was told that nothing could be done because I could not identify the person, because I could not just hand his name and address over to the police. Even if I could I know from my experience with them that they would have some other excuse like "It's your word against his" or "You need to go and get a restraining order."
The earlier threats against me which had been issued by Kruciam Paramahamsa, eventhough they had come from his own mobile phone and made several clear references to SoI and two individuals in SoI, which were twice reported to the police had not even be recorded. Apparently it is not against the law to threaten or harrass someone, so I have been told, unless I go and get a restraining order against them. One now needs to have a formal licence in order to be protected by the law. I was told by the officer that took my report that it was my own fault for having the website in the first place and that since I had been warned that I should take it down. My reply was that there was no way that was going to happen and he insisted "On behalf of the police force that is the advice that I am giving you."
This was not the end of it, if indeed there will ever be an end to it at all. On 13th April the same person who had previously stalked and threatened me from 12th-14th of February, Kruciam Paramahamsa, resident of Unit 3, 10 Boyd St South Tweed Heads decided that he would try again.
When I walked into the store across the road, without realising that he was sitting inside he said "We're all watching you bitch. How's your computer?" and made a shooting gesture with his hand. I pulled out my mobile phone and snapped a picture which shows the face of the man who gets obviously sexually aroused in public when threatening women. He lunged at me and tried to grab hold of the phone and then said that I attacked him and he wanted the police called. I dialled the emergency number on my phone while he made a hasty retreat with his the obese and leering hippie woman that he had been sitting with who spat at me as she went past. As he passed he lunged at me again and grabbed me on the right breast.
The driver of the car looked very familiar. I will not forget the person that came to my room and told me that they would have to shoot me. I got the licence plate number.
According to the messages that he sent me, which are still in my posession, he is a friend of Nirmal das and has communicated with Nirmal das about me. His statements indicate that he has conspired with this disciple of Chris Butler against me. As I do not know Nirmal das at all and cannot even recall having ever been in the same room as him I have no idea if this is the truth.
The police took about an hour to show up eventhough they were summoned to an emergency. They didn't even get out of the car. I was asked if I had a mark on me and said I probably did have a bruise on my breast but I was not about to take off my shirt in the street to check and it was clear the police were not that interested. There were a couple of witnesses that eventhough they probably would not be bothered to support me should have been spoken to.
Devotee gossip is a pretty reliable source of information and I have made some enquries. What I have been told is that this character, who is at least in his mid fifties, about 5'7", caucasian, drug addict's build (for the sake of reporting that is the most accurate description), with several tattoos, including an OM on his right inside forearm, dirty long light brown hair tied back in a ponytail and a right eye that is made of glass, claims to be associated with just about every guru that there is and is a musician and aspiring recording artist. He had given various accounts of how he lost his eye, one being that he was fleeing a cult in Byron Bay and another that he was attatched with a pitchfork "for absolutely no reason". The grapevine categorically states that he left Byron Bay after being accussed of sexually interfering with young girls.

[b:948710c59f]Fact:[/b:948710c59f] Chriskcon / Cultof Butler website is no longer available.

www.cultofbutler.com is up and active. The traffic flow is consistent and actually increasing as the site continues to exist which has only just passed the two month mark today.

[b:948710c59f]Fact:[/b:948710c59f] Ashleigh Rice, alleged sister of Cara’s love interest and “bestest” friend of Cara was never named in the letter from SOI lawyer (copy scanned on Chriskcon website), in spite of fact she supposedly made extensive contributions to the website. Cara posts on RR that Ashleigh betrayed her and then on the Chriskcon forum she claims they talk every day and are still best friends and was only trying to protect her.

It is a fact that Ash was not mentioned in the lawyers letter, and we do not know why this is the case. We speculate that her mother may have something to do with this. Also the domain name was registered in my name which indicates ownership from a legal point of view and we have always maintained a place that no-one knows the address of just as a precaution not being sure when we started out this cult activism thing what the result may be.

Ash does all the html which I assure you that I am completely incapable of and without her the site would not exist and she is an excellent researcher. We do not want to put out photos of Ash just to prove that she exists. There has been one photo of me that most people have seen on my last blog and there will as I mentioned be a video. Maybe it was not the best way to try to protect her but with things the way that they were at the time it seemed like something I could do.

[b:948710c59f]Fact:[/b:948710c59f] A person named Caris is posting on a Skeptic website, one of Ashleigh’s interests.

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[www.skepticforum.com]
A poster on this forum called Mathew Scott Fitsgarrett offers up some good advice to 'caris' on this forum.

That is me and skepticism is also one of my interests. His advice to take a break was sort of heeded. His advice to give up cult activism was not. If anyone is going there to read this then I think that I expressed rather well in my last post how I feel about the situation and why I want to do what I want to do.

[b:948710c59f]Fact:[/b:948710c59f] Cara or someone(s) calling herself Cara started several blogs and websites, all of which disappeared by design or otherwise. She has claimed responsibility for Chriskcon, then she claimed that she does not run the site or implied there were others helping her, then she claims other people took over control, and then claims to dismiss herself from the endeavor.

I stated that I do not moderate the Chriskcon forum, which I don't, I had neither the time or the computer access after my laptop was wrecked to do it anyway. I wrote pretty much every word on that site. I am not going to discuss who helps me because of maintaining their privacy and it has been made clear to me that SoI is very interested in finding out who these people are. I also stated that the name was assumed control of, not the site. As I recently posted to you the site itself has never been down - a domain name is totally separate to a website administered through a different company and easy to assume control of. If the site had gone down the domain name would have been pointing at nothing, not CNN. Stealing domain names is a common hack and attempt at site sabotage.

[b:948710c59f]Fact:[/b:948710c59f] Cara has claimed all along that she is a “devotee” and a follower of Krishna or Nrishimhadev and claims to have had a vision of the lion incarnation and on a divinely inspired mission to expose SOI. Other places she has entertained the idea of starting her own “mission”.

What has this got to do with anything? I have been open about spiritual things, I have tried to be an open person and I have also said that I do not know what the truth really is about the situation and criticised a lot of things. If I started a "mission" it would be along the lines of below, more of a charity and I would hardly be the first person to start a religious inspired charity. There are two sides behind my supporters, those who want to abandon all organised religion and speak out against the dangers and shortcomings of it and those who maintain their faith despite their experiences and continue or want to continue having a spiritual life. I have been apprached repeatedly and asked to do something so that exposing SoI does not turn people away from Krishna Consciousness and I have certainly considered the idea that there may be something that can be done so that no one need feel that they were turned away from spiritual life by SoI, which is certainly how I feel. You also claimed to me to have seen Narasingha Zelig so I do not really appreciate the implications of the above "fact" I believe in metaphysics and mysticism in as much as I do not disbelieve in them, I have an enquiring mind, that is no secret, and theology has been a long time interest of mine. I want to help people not ever make a guru of myself and I have never ever entertained that idea, despite the fact that it has been sugguested and been made clear to me that I would get a lot more support from the Vaishnava community if I did.

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Attahasa Mission is founded to serve Krishna through addressing issues of spiritual abuse, facilitating awareness, healing and prevention.

With the focus of Attahasa being devotional service there is no guru or one who claims to be a spiritual authority affiliated with the mission.

Attahasa endorses Scripture and the Lord in the Heart as the failsafe guides in spiritual life and will act to support all people to develop their own personal relationship with Krishna.

Individuals and organizations supportive of the principles and projects of Attahasa Mission will be made welcome to contribute.

[b:948710c59f]Fact:[/b:948710c59f] Cara refused to share information on the RR site that has disappeared on the Chriskcon site and advertised her website (a pro-krishna consciousness website) in most every post on the RR forum.

What information did I refuse to share? I post a lot here and I have an active website.

[b:948710c59f]Fact:[/b:948710c59f] I just saw the video “Sybil”.

Well perhaps that explains your last post but does not excuse it.

Jo :lol: I hope you got my recent PM.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that Zelig is just an instigator who has driven the three real people here away while carefully hiding his own identity and scrutinising mine? I do not mind scrutiny, I am aware that I invite it.

The fact Zelig that you have obviously been engaging in discussion about me with others is not at all unsimilar to what I know SoI is doing about me at the moment. As one ex member told me they would be managing me now like a project and I have had every indication that this person was right about this, although I was a little skeptical when they first told me this. What Zelig has done above is a classic example of "dead agenting" as it is called in Scientology, tactics designed to discredit critics.

When my character is being attacked that is only an indication that I am on my way to being a genuine cult activist that is capable of making a difference, as I am sure that Rick could attest.

BTW chriskcon is not a pro krishna consciousness site and nor is it an anti krishna consciousness site - there is absolutely no religious writings there or attempt to lead people to any guru so I have no idea what motivates you to make that statement.

Zelig,

While I, Ashleigh, don't appreciate the implication that I possibly had something to do with the disappearance of my best friend at this stage I don't expect less from you.

The number of lies you have told on this thread have led me to agree with Cara's last post for sometime now and your lying to her about your private conversations with me in an attempt to cause disruption in our friendship is courageous of you.

Included in your lies is the length of time you were actually in the cult. You don't seem to remember whether it was ten or twenty years. Your forgetfulness about the school run by Mike Gabbard was quickly replaced with knowledge of the fact that *no* chanting occured there. Any person who ever had any experience with the cult would be aware of the absurdity of your statement.

The fact is that cult members spend a large part of their day chanting on beads, they daily play tape recordings of Butler chanting for hours and members even children break into song at random moments during the day. The cult are highly interested in instilling Krishna consciousness in the children. So your stating that a school of purely devotee children would have no chanting is absolutely a lie.

Great detective work though perhaps you could start investigating SoI instead of posting your authoratative BS on this thread.

A.

Ps. I have never posted on a skeptic forum in my life and most skeptics generally don't even know the meaning of the word. I'm agnostic.

For Zelig and company..

(with love to Rama)

Little Hellions, kids feelin rebellious
Embarrassed their parents still listen to Chris
They start feelin like prisoners helpless
'til someone comes along on a mission and yells BITCH!!!
A visionary, vision is scary
Could start a revolution, pollutin the airwaves
A rebel, so just let me revel and bask
in the fact that I got everyone kissin my ass
And it's a disaster, such a catastrophe
for you to see so damn much of my ass; you asked for me?
Well I'm back, na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na
Fix your bent antenna tune it in and then I'm gonna
enter in, endin up under your skin like a splinter
The center of attention, back for the winter
I'm interesting, the best thing since wrestling
Infesting in your kid's ears and nesting
Testing, attention please
Feel the tension, soon as someone mentions me
Here's my ten cents, my two cents is free
A nuisance, who sent? You sent for me?[/size:e21ed3cfa6][/color:e21ed3cfa6]

Some people seem to have a hard time understanding the following statement from Jagad Guru. It appears on one of his opponent’s websites:

“The truth isn’t the truth just because I say it.”

This statement is not only easy to understand, but if a person understands it, they’ll understand how Jagad Guru is the absolute opposite of a cult leader. If a cult leader believes that he is God and therefore believes that he is the creator of truth, then he believes that if he says something is true, then it is true. Such a cult leader believes that something is true because he says it. Therefore, such a cult leader is able to change the truth. He can say black is black today, but tomorrow he might say black is white and his followers will blindly accept that. So Jagad Guru is giving the antidote to that. Jagad Guru is teaching that the truth is independent from all of us. The truth stands as the truth whether or not we acknowledge its truth. The absolute truth is the absolute truth whether we recognize it or not. The fact that cult leaders have such an arrogant attitude is what makes them dangerous. Jagad Guru is trying to point that out to his students. Jagad Guru is giving us the philosophical, intellectual and spiritual guidance which allows is to protect ourselves from such cult leaders.

In his lectures, Jagd Guru has made it very clear many times that anyone who hears his teaching has to take what they hear into their hearts and check it with the Lord within the heart and check it with shastra (scripture). I remember once in a lecture he stated:

If I tell you that I am God, take that proclamation within your heart and also check it with scripture. If that teaching that I am God and you are God and we’re all God is something that is confirmed by the Lord in your heart and scripture then you can accept that. However, if the Lord in your heart and scripture reject that teaching that I am God, then you should reject it. We should not blindly accept anything anyone says no matter how big and ornate a dias they’re sitting on, or how high a stage or platform they may be speaking from, or how religious or holy they look, or how many followers they have. We have to check carefully within ourselves and scripture what a person is teaching.

Thanks zelig and cult for the feedback. Thanks zelig for the save.

I have been busy but have a little time for research now. Although I am more interested in the political agenda of Chris Butler I will post whatever I come across. I found this today. Apparently the Science of Identity Foundation is famous as a deviant Hindu group even in India. The following quote is taken from an article recently posted at the hare krishna website, 'Sampradaya Sun'. It is by a Hindu activist who apparently knows about Chris Butler and his cult.

"Furthermore, the idea that Jesus is Brahma is a concoction that you have borrowed from a deviant Hindu group [Science of Identity Foundation] in Hawaii." Pradeep Sharma

[www.harekrsna.com]
full article^

Should I post the full article here?

The introdction to the lecture where Chris Butler makes this statement states Jagad Guru comes from a long line of spiritual teachers which originated with God himself. Jagad Guru speaks the truth, not sectarian truth not buddhist hindu or christian truth, but a truth that applies to everyone everywhere. He clearly explains the reasons for, the effects of and the solutions to the personal and social problems facing us today.

Not all cult leaders claim to be God, what you are actually referring to are false prophets. One can be a cult leader without being a prophet. In the Hindu tradition though, which is vastly different from the christian origins of most cults to claim to be the next in disciplic succession is the equivalent of being a false prophet. Those in discipic succession are considered to be non-different to God himself - pure devotees who are a direct link to God. There is no difference between this and a christian cult leader claiming to be an angel or a representative of God such as an angel or the second coming of Jesus. Unless you would like to argue that David Koresh was not a cult leader - he claimed to be a representative from God to preach the truth to save the true believers which were thsoe who recognised him out of all the false prophets - just as Chris does - then your statement is incorrect.

It should also be understood before listening to such ridiculous and completely unfounded arguments that Chris Butler is not a cult leader the guise of humility in the Hindu tradition. Chris Butler frequently makes statements that are self depreciating one of my favourites was when he was talking about taking the shelter of a guru being like taking shelter under a tree that provides fruit and shade the analogy being that one cannot expect to find this if they insist on going to a thorn tree and he referred to himself as a thorn tree covered in nasty thorns that poke people's feet laughing as he said it. Anyone who really thought this would not live like a millionaire slave plantation owner as Chris Butler does and declare themselves Prabhupad and Jagad Guru and Paramahamsa.

Jagad Guru also says that one needs a spiritual master in order to progress in spiritual life and that one can not approach God directly but must hear from a bonafide representative. So if this one statement "The truth isn't the truth just because I say it." is infact the truth - (but how can we know if what he says is not neccessarily the truth that we shoud accept this statement ?:roll:) then Jagad Guru is talking himself right out of being a bonafide spiritual teacher and therefore saying that noone shoud listen to him and that he is not qualified to preach scripture since his words should always align with scripture without contradiction - which they do not as we have already covered.

What Jagad Guru does to protect you from such cult leaders is to get you into his own cult and keep you isolated. There is nothing intellectual about bowing down to a CD lecture and accepting every word that he says and not even being to ask him questions because he doesnt even answer them. There is also a letter on chriskcon site where he refers to reading Scripture that he does not authorise as the equivalent of eating poison. The one statement alone (and it is not alone) demonstrates that Butler does infact consider everything that he teaches to be absolute and the fact that noone can come onto this thread and answer any questions whatsoever how blind his followers are. Are you willing to answer questions Antartic or are you just here to add to the fray of misinformation and protect the illussion of Chris Butler?