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I think one of the main points I want to leave on this forum is my view that all the people I knew in the group were good people. We were mostly well educated, intelligent, creative and philosophical. A lot of brain power. Look at how many artists there were - musicians, painters, writers, a few intellectuals, farmers, people sensitive to the environment. The rest were really sweet, "mode of goodness" people, even the ones who developed nasty personalities later on.

All the people I knew in SOI were good people?
On the surface they were. Are. That's why they are so attractive. Still.
But they culled young people for the cult while neglecting and abusing their own children. (I'm not even going to go into the way they lie or how they treat adults who don't follow the leader. Nice is being genuinely compassionate, a true friend, feeding the hungry, things like that.)
They turned a blind eye on anything their precious leader did that went against their own innate moral inclinations.
They gladly shifted their own values to suit the shifting values of same leader.
Good people? Average people, maybe. Put on a nice front and indulge in a lot of moral superiority.
Hearing the truth about how the world sees you can be painful, but I don't think sugar-coating it is going to help free anyone. As long as you can convince yourself that you are nice and sweet and not harming anyone there isn't any reason to leave, now, is there?

Okay, I admit it...
I'm pulled back into this forum.
I thought I could post a few pieces of info, and be gone.
Wrong.
Who knows...whatever...here I am.

I must take exception to the reference that we were/are NOT
"good people" since we followed Chris Butler's regime for a time.
We only rate as average human beings?
Hmm...is that a necessarily a bad thing?

Take a cross slice of humanity...
No matter what the situation, (or organization) there is always
going to be some people who are consciously
doing things for their own benefit, period. Then some who are trying
to do what they perceive at the moment as the right thing to do,
and some who don't really give a shit at all either way.

It was the same for the disciples of Chris that I personally knew.
Some people were gossips, some people were busy-bodies,
some people were trying to be in the "inner good devotee" circle,
some people were trying to combat their inclinations for the above,
some people were just there for the temporary ride,
and some people really DID think that what they were doing was
trying to get closer to an understanding of God, and enlightenment.

We are, and were at the time, simply human beings. Laced with
all the complex flaws that permeate all the humans I know.
No perfect flawless enlightened beings on my list of acquaintances.
You?

I personally did NOT "recruit" any outside human beings to chant.
The exception to that would have to be my own biological children,
and other children under my immediate family care.
Even then, with me, it was not mandatory that they chant,
they were encouraged to do so, for sure....but were not in
any way punished or chastised if they did not.
But yes, there were some quite bad / neglectful parents around.
Neglectful by any definition in any level of our society.
Had they not been protected by the small group they inhabited,
someone would have probably turned them into Social Services!

For a very brief time frame...may be two months tops,
I did help teach the girls class in Hawaii in 1984.
Quite truthfully, the only reason why I did that was
because I was physically in Hawaii, and it was NOT okay
to be there, (Chris was there) hanging out, and doing "nothing".
So I guess I am guilty of helping perpetuate Chris' dogma by teaching
the girls class for a short time. Fine...guilty!
Have you never in your life made a decision to do something
that you did not regret later?
Or seen later from hind-sight that it was a foolish or bad thing to do?
Never?

For me personally, this was journey that lasted 15 years.
From meeting Jivan, meeting Chris, then re-uniting with them both years later,
becoming initiated, and finally having the guts to leave.
When I did leave, you can be assured that my young child was rescued as well.
Not just this one child, but later, the other two children under my care...
and shortly afterwards, my daughter & her daughter also.

I may be an average human being.
However...I am intelligent, I am talented, I am a caring and loving.
I was also young, foolish, in love, and seeking spiritual truth.
Chris and Jivan caught me at the right time along my life's journey...
no more, no less.

I have some bad habits and I have some good ones.
I try to be calm and nice, but I know I can be a real bitch if truly provoked
or attacked, and reasoning does not win out.
Yep, pretty average.

Lots of Chris' disciples did NOT go along with every
word that was spoken or handed down...we had questions, we saw duplicity.
We were not always comfortable with what was presented as "truth, or okay behavior".
We did not turn a blind eye to all that was going on.
Why do you think we left?
We just all woke up one morning and said,
what the hell, I don't think I'll chant any more???
Hello!

Give a little credit here.
Your "Average" human...
We left.

Like all cults there are different levels of involvement and there are different people getting different things out of it. I really do think shanti that the experience for women is different than it is for the men too, there is not much ambition a woman can hold in a KC environment and the most common prize for devotion is a baby and/or a broken heart.

Cults get worse over time, they all do, the Branch Davidians existed for a long time before David Koresh even joined up with nothing ike what happened under his rule ever occurring and in the beginning Jim Jones was considered a progressive humanitarian for not having discrimination in ministering to African Americans.

If I knew a fraction of what I now know about SoI I never would have gone near the place - but who would? That is why it bothers them so much that this thread is now clocking over 1000 views a day and they have gone from having no internet prescence before Chriskcon was lanched at the end of February to over 500 ads and junk pages in addition to monitoring user edited sites to obliterate any knowledge against them.

Does anyone here who was a former member have an idea of what they would do if this was going on while you were still there? If you were getting a letter from Guru telling you do not look at this website or you were put to work on Project Spam or it was a former friend of yours dedicated to exposure and you were being asked to try to manipulate them and help in the effort to shut them up? Do you think that you would be tempted to look at the site anyway? Would you remember how you felt about the person and remember what you had with them or would Guru's orders overshadow that instantly? I really do believe that those who are in SoI for spiritual reasons, who are there as sincere devotees of Krishna and know the difference between Krishna and Chris Butler would have to reconsider under the circumstances. It is hard, maybe impossibe to know what if but everyone knows what led to them being there and how much they really believed in the religion and aspired to that ideal.

Those like self realised scam artist bai mi sum would automatically be thinking how this going to effect profits and how can I cover this up because I've slept with all the women here already and we need to keep some new recruits coming in or my son is going to have to marry his cousin.

No-one I am sure wakes up one day and says I dont want to chant anymore - it is more like I cant chant anymore because this contradicts everything that I believe in offends the most basic element of my existence actually inflicts pain on my soul. More people left in one exodus for spiritual reasons when it was found out that guru has secretly gotten married which sugguests to me that the believers, not the atheists flee.

Hey, do you think I'd be here if I hadn't decided for a variety of reasons to walk away, too?
I just wasn't privy to any of the juicier details until I found this forum.
Average is the key.
Not "Karmi" and "devotee", or "Guru", "lower-than-the-straw-in-the-street" and "lower life form". I was a "lower life form", obviously. Which was and always will be fine with me.
An average human being.

There have been comments very critical of ex-followers from people who believe that we are either an enemy, a cult apologist, brain washed, or cowards if we don’t feed information, reveal names, or accept the same conclusions they believe. Confidentiality is assured but not guaranteed. It has been publicly stated by a couple of people on the forum that anyone from the cult has no right to privacy. IMO this disrespect and disregard for followers (ex and otherwise) is no different than CB’s cavalier and impertinent attitude towards people. Plenty of information is already out there to reveal the cult for what it is. Several posters on this forum have already thanked contributors for warning them about the group. So the RR forum and other efforts have been very effective.

By putting out speculations about unknown and private people who were once involved or currently involved in the cult could possibly harm innocent people. To state that there are no innocent people in CB’s cult, IMO, is just cold and heartless.

This said, it does not mean in any way that I am suggesting that information should not continue to be sought and found. These statements do not imply that research should be aborted, but IMO, it should be done ethically or the abused becomes an abuser. Hence the Professional Journalist’s Ethics link [www.spj.org]

No one person on this forum represents all of the “exes”. No one really knows what each person has done or not done to help others leave or avoid the cult over the years since leaving the cult. And who has a right to judge? There have been several implications that the only ones doing anything about CB are the few involved with one website. (e.g., “If you are not for us, you are against us.”) Wake up. Not everyone handles Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in the same way. And most of us “exes” did suffer various degrees of PTSD. Not everyone has to work in the same way. Not everyone has to agree to the [i:f3096ad041]n’th[/i:f3096ad041] degree with each other.

The bottom line for me has always been to tell the truth about my experiences without exaggeration or embellishment and face up to the fact that it was what it was; for better or worse. Everyone’s experiences have been different. My own familiarity with this group was never totally good, nor totally bad, but bad enough for me to split and obviously much worse for others. I hated the way “Jagad Guru” treated people and that was just “another brick in the wall”.

I think everyone can agree that the best way to fight cult consciousness is through education and through teaching young people. It is ludicrous to think that this post implies that other websites, books, movies or whatever should not published.

Also, my issues with some of the methods employed by a couple of CB critics has been out of fear for their personal safety, well being, and to advise them in ways as to avoid lawsuits while pursuing their mission. But this is not the topic of the forum.

What follows is a good link. PDF files on the ‘40 Developmental Assets for Early Childhood, Adolescents, and Middle Childhood’ along with Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. These are guidelines, but don’t come with a “How-to Manual”. They are a good model in which to compare how children are being raised in the cult (obviously not meeting their needs).

If you have been in a cult or are in a cult, it is good to look at the areas where your needs were not met and perhaps why you became susceptible to cult influence. There is a lot of research out there. [b:f3096ad041]Better to treat a child with preventative medicine, than treating the disease (brainwashing) once it has settled into the core of a person.[/b:f3096ad041]

[b:f3096ad041]Shanti’s report of her family doing well “post-cult” is the best news and an example of what life becomes on the outside. Better. Thriving. People still stuck in the cult need to hear this. It also exemplifies that recovery is possible.[/b:f3096ad041]

[www.search-institute.org]

[en.wikipedia.org]

From April edition of 'New Scientist'
Again, my point is that good or even "average" and ordinary people change under the influence of cults and charismatic leaders. From small communities to whole cultures and nations you will see this phenomenon.

[b:7c3944c74f][i:7c3944c74f]” …such transformations are surprisingly common. You find them in just about any environment in which an individual is subsumed into a group or is reacting to what others are doing: rioting mobs, football crowds, committees, social networks, even panels of judges. In such situations a group mentality can easily take over, leading people to act out of character or adopt extreme or risky positions. ”[/i:7c3944c74f]

[i:7c3944c74f]” Zimbardo has famously shown how easy it is to turn peaceful people abusive and hostile.”[/i:7c3944c74f]

[i:7c3944c74f]”When any group of like-minded people get together, the result can be equally alarming. One common effect is that the group ends up taking a more extreme position than the one its members started with - it becomes polarised.”[/i:7c3944c74f]

[i:7c3944c74f]” It is not surprising that people should be so susceptible to the dynamics of their social environment. After all, we evolved as social animals in environments where cooperation and group cohesion were key survival tools. Our reasons for being influenced by others are often valid, but if we are not careful this tendency can get us into trouble. In a classic study carried out in the 1950s, for example, social psychologist Solomon Asch revealed how the peer pressure associated with being part of a group can lead people to deny the evidence of their own senses. When asked simply to match the length of a line on a card with one of three reference lines, 70 per cent of his subjects ignored their own judgement and sided with the rest of their group who, unbeknown to them, had been primed to make a blatantly wrong choice. .”[/i:7c3944c74f][/b:7c3944c74f]
To read whole article:
[board.culteducation.com]

Seriously this has gone on for long enough. Zelig has failed to answer the statements that he was initiate and he has failed to address why he has posted from many many isp addresses. He claims that he is not representing others but where is just googling and sunglider who he has referred to in his expose on me? Note when I first came here and said that I believed that SoI was dangerous this cartel of fools said oh they are not they are just a messed up group of people, just a strange group no violence. That was to discourage me from digging further. When it became evident that they would attack me then Zelig is concerned for my safety. When they did attack me he tries to paint me as a liar and state a case for why I do not even exist. Zelig used to PM me up to five times a day. According to everyone else I have spoken to he has also PMd them. I am nt the only one that regards him as suspicious. Over 100 people have given me information so far - and when have I revealed anyone? I have names and addresses and phone numbers and photographs. To portray me as a victimiser of former members is completely unfounded. This is an attempt to provoke me into saying I know who the people that are attacking me and my work are and I am not going to do that.

Here is the thing, and I would like to state at this point that I have never stated that anyone has to agree with me about anything or that anyone has to or should give me information, infact I have stated the opposite of this many times (at the same time as claiming this about me Zelig has also claimed that I am stopping people from coming forward - which is it?) I have been feeding Zelig who apparently lives somewhere in America false information about my personal life for months, and it came back to me on the Gold Coast from cult members there. The tactics of SoI have been very simple and followed a progression which correalates with how desperate they have become. First they wanted to get my address, Zelig also tried to get my address under the guise of sending me books. The PO Box which has always been on my writings was not good enough?? He then tried to get me to tell him that I had contacted/harrassed members of the cult here and made suggestions as to how I might go about this which became a tactic of SoI when they filed for a bogus restraining order. The cult then made bogus allegations through their lawyer that I had breached said order when this is not the case. I have no criminal record. To attempt to dig into the past of cult activists is common, there are dossiers on many published by cults including something like 200 pages produced about Rick Ross by Scientoogy. I was threatened with having a restraining order taken out on me for stalking a week after I was kicked out of my house. Trying to buy me by giving me back the relationship that was taken away from me, emotional blackmail has happened periodically. Brendon has contacted me and pleaded with me, told me that he was being punished because of what I was doing, told me that he could lose his job and his son because of what I am doing. I was never unsympathetic or indifferent to this, but everytime something has changed and he has revealed further details which reveal him to be a party to a whole lot of bs. It is not his fault despite his best efforts that he couldnt hep Chris , he has as I have said before major thought blocking and cant think on his feet if challenged in an argument. Like many people he is in a situation that puts him out of touch with reality. It has been put to me by Zelig and others straight up if we give him back to you will you shut the hell up. They are talking about a human being here, an individuals life and they would openly without any shame manipulate that for their own interests. Zelig has systematically chased everyone out of this forum aand even had me at the point where I threw up my hands and said to him if you want this thread take it, silence ensued. He is a reaactive element, and most likely posting from many isps and taking so long to formulate responses is infact a conglomerate of devotees, the closest voice to CB us mere mortals are ever likely to hear. When we are talking about Mike Gabbard he tried to bury it on the thread by posting the same links over and over. What could it be to him if I get sued? I want SoI to sue me - as I said I welcome the opportunity to discuss the issues about the cult in a courtroom. It is certainly not his concern.
SoI has plainly stated to me that they 'know' that I have help because of the amount of information that I have. I have been asked outright what organisations or gurus I am affiliated with and who is funding the effort against them. I have seen letters written about me by CB himself that I am assurred that I am what the problem is and I am damn proud of this. If people want to bellieve zeligs campaign of crap then that is truely up to them, I am not out to convince anyone I simply want the cult to know that I know and that it is not working whatsoever.

Quote
cultreporter
Seriously this has gone on for long enough. Zelig has failed to answer the statements that he was initiate and he has failed to address why he has posted from many many isp addresses. He claims that he is not representing others but where is just googling and sunglider who he has referred to in his expose on me?

I am still here but I do not want
to engage in worthless arguments
for the sake of argument's sake. :lol:
Keep smiling! Be happy! :D

(Maybe Siddhaswarupananda is right about
the age of quarrel, chaos and confusion?) :?

what's the difference between Chris Butler and Clint Eastwood?[/color:bef9f26890]

the difference is that Clint was very respectful
to those people who were working with him
on his movie projects...
even the lowly cleaners and nobodies got
good respect from Clint...

Siddhaswarupananda, however showed complete
DISRESPECT constantly to [b:bef9f26890]everyone[/b:bef9f26890] who worked on the set...
I had personally seen him being a total asshole
towards the audio engineers, the camera crew
and the lighting crew (who were not even followers)

:idea: I really do not know what "God's Representative"
could achieve by acting like this... :?: :?: :?:
except these internet sites to come back
and haunt him all these years later... :wink:


:roll:

For Christ Sake give Zelig a break, the guy is speaking about 20 years more and so, if you cant read between the lines now, you never will. This guys an old dude, and when you get on in years, you kind of get stuck in your ways.

Let you hair down a bit.

You're not the only one in the world who has had their heart broken. I try to pick up a little piece of mine everyday, but I know it will never be repaired. Jeeeez, I lost count of where all the pieces are laying about ...

This is a huge thread with much information.

Let's not ruin it with petty arguments and "flaming."

Please be courteous and allow each other some space and understanding.

Everyone does not need to agree on everything.

Each person posthing here has their own history with the group and personal situation. There may be some differences in individual experiences and perhaps specific interests.

Please don't allow personality clashes ruin the dialog and exchange of ideas here.