Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
initiate
()
Date: June 06, 2006 03:06AM
Quote
rrmoderator
Cult members are often so "brainwashed" they can't think clearly.
And with their critical thinking impaired by a group process and influence they are frequently unable to protect themselves or their own best interests.
Dr. Phil's mantra "What were we thinking?" doesn't seem to take this into consideration.
And blaming the victim for their own injuries in a cult situation isn't a meaningful response to the problem.
See [www.culteducation.com]
And also [www.culteducation.com]
Part of sorting through a cult experience is putting this in perspective and understanding the group's process of breaking people down and manipulating them.
Sharing how that process works is good preventive medicine for others that might potentially be victimized by a group or leader.
This discussion really belongs on another thread, but I will reply here. No doubt this website provides a tremendous free resource for individuals struggling with cult experiences and offers many solutions.
What follows are my thoughts regarding individuals who are relatively mentally stable. There are those who become involved in cults who need serious psychological and medical interventions. Nor does this post address people who truly are innocent victims such as children and people who have cognitive disabilities. Additionally, every cult is different and every person responds differently in each environment.
I will have to politely agree to disagree with you on a few points. The documents you referenced, while quite erudite and well researched essays on mind control and indoctrination use extreme examples (e.g., police interrogation) and describe coercive and aversive methods to demonstrate the thesis that man can indeed be “brain washed” to a point. However, none of these documents provides an accurate template for my experiences with the Krishna group in Hawaii. This model is more likely suitable to some cults, but also the U.S. Military, most governments, some bureaucracies and corporations, and some aspects of the public school system! Also, none of these writings acknowledges an individual’s power of discrimination, or the necessity to take personal responsibility. In these examples we are ever the stupid and sheepish victims of powers beyond our level of comprehension and control. We do not have any capacity to extricate ourselves from our condition without outside help. Sounds like the other side of the cult coin. This belief is precisely the reason we can be so susceptible to cultish activities. As you know, cult deprogrammers have often used the same tactics as the cults themselves!
Interesting that you use the word “mantra” to describe Dr. Phil’s popular saying! The comment, “What were we thinking!?” was addressed to the former members of the Krishna group that I have contact with, as we have a unique perspective looking back. And looking back at what I was thinking at the time I entered the cult, and later what I overlooked, is exactly what gave me the understanding, wisdom and strength to leave. Looking back at what I was thinking and comparing it to what I wanted in life and who I had intended to become and how I deviated from my dreams is what made me run like hell! The more responsibility I took, the more strength I gained. The more I looked at the pain I had caused myself and others, the quicker the pain went away. The fear and pain was replaced by strength and resolution. At the time I was a member, we were never systematically “brainwashed” as described in your articles. Recognizing that I had a conscious choice in all of this, and taking responsibility for my actions is how I got out of the situation and made a good life for myself.
The mantra “don’t blame the victim” supposes that each of us is incapable of thinking for ourselves or that we are all too weak minded to discriminate between right and wrong. Cults also want us to feel like we can not come up with the answers ourselves. If there is injury from the world or the cult, we had no part in it, no responsibility. This thinking is not only unrealistic, but detrimental to any real and permanent recovery. We have this innate psychological immune system that needs to be acknowledged. Making people think that they are victims and that their involvement in cults has some external etiology only succeeds in keeping them weak minded and incapable of taking responsibility for their lives. The key word is response. We have the ability to control our responses to an inimical force. Response Ability. Labeling a person a victim takes this ability away, something that cults also try to do.
And who is to judge? I see many good organizations and religions slandered on this website by a few people who have had bad experiences. I was shocked to see some of these listed as potential cults. It seems the fear of cults can also create the other side of the coin; the witch hunts. Instead of the church as the authority, certain streams of psychology and academic research are used as the authority. We need to be very careful.
Making people look at their choices and the consequences of their participation is a meaningful response to the problem, as it motivates one to not repeat the same mistakes in the future. Part of being a mature individual is recognizing that all our choices have consequences. By looking at and walking through the pain, we are no longer condemned to repeat our blunders, nor place ourselves under the jurisdiction of entities that do not have our best interest at heart. Pain does go away when it is denied or suppressed. We have pain for a reason. It is a good thing. It is an immune guidance system. While it is natural to avoid pain, it is not natural to prevent the experience of it when it comes to teach us something. To palliate the very system that has always brought people to positive action and real change is a crime. No one is supposed to feel “bad” anymore to the point that we no longer have the self confidence and sense of self to look at our mistakes, forgive ourselves, not wallow in guilt and self pity, and make the necessary corrections. We make mistakes. We must allow ourselves to make mistakes, feel bad, and then move on quickly to make the corrections. We must honor our ability to respond.
In the end, it doesn’t matter who is to blame for being exploited by the cult (outside of any criminal or civil rights violations). For example, if you have two students who have missed many classes and exams, they will both have to retake the course. It does not matter that one student missed so many lessons due to an illness and the other one missed out because they were skipping school. They are both in the same boat and have to make the same effort now to complete the course. Neither student was a victim. One student consciously made choices that jeopardized success in the course, the other succumbed to an illness. One might even suggest the possibility that the other student subconsciously got ill in order to not take the course. Our judgment of the excuses does not matter. In the end, they both need to do the same work. The focus now needs to be on completing the course. On leaving a cult, the focus needs to be on what has to be done now to make your life free and better.
Coupled with having to retake the course, or re-doing your life, you also need to look at what choices were made to cause the failure. Perhaps the one student was depressed about breaking up with a girlfriend while the other did not eat right and partied too much. In looking at your cult experience, if you can’t look at the fact that you had a part in allowing yourself to be brainwashed, allowed yourself to not think clearly, then you won’t know what to do in a similar situation. If a person can’t get through this stage, which involves some pain and embarrassment, then they take the risk of repeating the same mistakes or becoming involved with other forms of cultish groups and activities (e.g., they may leave the cult only to become addicted to the recovery movement).
Yes, there are evil and manipulative teachers, gurus, corporate leaders, religions, governments who have abused and caused harm to others throughout history by using the coercive and aversive methods described in your links. Only through education and laws can we prevent the exploitation of others. We must be ever vigilant in exposing offenders, as this website does very well. We must similarly be ever vigilant with ourselves.
You wrote, “Part of sorting through a cult experience is putting this in perspective and understanding the group's process of breaking people down and manipulating them.” Yes. And more, by realizing that just as you can be been duped and manipulated, you also have the ability to detect B.S. and have the power to build yourself back up. The more you recognize your complicity in the process, the choices that made it possible for you to be used, the more permanent the change and more powerful the inoculation against further exploitation will be.
You also wrote, “Sharing how that process works is good preventive medicine for others that might potentially be victimized by a group or leader.” This is what your website does best. Thank you for the forum.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: June 06, 2006 10:43PM
Initiate:
No. This is directly relevant to any discussion about cults and their techniques of recruiting and retaining members. It is also important in the recovery process for former cult members to recognize what happened to them whle they were in the cult. It helps to sort through that experience and the previously linked information is directly applicable to that process.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Psychologist Margaret Singer who worked with thousands of former cult members had these observations in her seminal study "Coming Out of Cults."
[b:4365eac989]Blurring of Mental Acuity [/b:4365eac989]
Most cult veterans are neither grossly incompetent nor blatantly disturbed. Nevertheless, they report -- and their families confirm -- subtle cognitive inefficiencies and changes that take some time to pass. Ex-cultists often have trouble putting into words the inefficiencies they want to describe. Jack, the physiology graduate, said, "It's more that after a while outside, something comes back. One day I realized my thinking had gradually expanded. I could see everything in more complex ways. The group had slowly, a step at a time, cut me off from anything but the simplest right-wrong notions. They keep you from thinking and reasoning about all the contingencies by always telling you, ‘Don't doubt, don't be negative.' And after a while you hardly think about anything except in yes-no, right-wrong, simpleminded ways." Ira, the factory worker, or Jack, now working as a hospital orderly, have to take simple jobs until they regain former levels of competence.
[b:4365eac989]Uncritical Passivity[/b:4365eac989]
Many ex-cultists report they accept almost every thing they hear, as if their pre-cult skills for evaluating and criticizing were in relative abeyance. They cannot listen and judge: they listen, believe, and obey. Simple remarks of friends, dates, co-workers, and roommates are taken as commands, even though the person does not feel like doing the bidding, or even abhors it. One woman had gotten up in the middle of the night to respond to the telephoned command of a near stranger: "I borrowed my dad's car to drive about 65 miles out into the country and help this guy I had just met once in a coffeehouse to transport some stolen merchandise, because he spoke in such a strong and authoritative way to me on the phone. I can't believe how much I still obey people."
When this behavior comes up in our group sessions, we discuss the various cults' injunction's against questioning doctrine or directives, and the effects of living for months or years in situations that encourage acquiescence. Ex-members of some of the more authoritarian cults describe constant urging to "surrender your mind .. accept ... melt ... flow with it . . Don't question now, later you will understand." Reluctance or objections are reprimanded: "Don't be negative, don't be resistant, surrender."
You seem to categorize former cult members into various groups. It is true that children most often never decided to join and that cult recruitment of disabled people is an especially evil act.
However, all former cult members were victimized by thought reform and essentially disabled through the process of "brainwahsing" as Singer points out repeatedly in her writings.
The previously linked articles do not simply "use extreme examples" and they are applicable to all destructive cult groups by definition.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Psychiatrist and author Robert Jay Lifton, who wrote "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism" defined cults as follows:
"Certain psychological themes which recur in these various historical contexts also arise in the study of cults. Cults can be identified by three characteristics:
1. a charismatic leader who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose their power;
2. a process I call coercive persuasion or thought reform;
3. economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie."
Note the second criteria, which is "thought reform" or "coercive persuasion." Both Lifton and sociologist Richard Ofshe describe this as a subtle process.
Here is Lifton's Chapter 22 defining though reform, which does not simply "use extreme examples."
See [www.culteducation.com]
Lifton's eight criteria are:
Milieu Control
Mystical Manipulation
The Demand for Purity
The Cult of Confession
The "Sacred Science"
Loading the Language
Doctrine Over Person
The Dispensing of Existence
See [www.culteducation.com]
This is Stanford University professor Richard Ofshe's paper on "coercive persuasion."
Ofshe says, "The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:
1. The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance
2. The use of an organized peer group
3. Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity
4. The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified
You seem to have confused different levels and categories of persuasion here with thought reform.
Singer breaks these levels down.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Singer says that persuasion can be identified in distinct categories as in education, advertising, propaganda, indoctrination and thought reform, but to varying degrees and within a different context and/or under different circumstances.
Regarding the military specifically Singer wrote a paper titled "How the United States Marine Corps Differs from Cults."
See [www.culteducation.com]
Singer lists 19 differences, but the last is the most relevant to our exchange on this thread.
"In the USMC, the methods of instruction are military training and education, even indoctrination into the traditions of the USMC, but brainwashing, or thought reform, is not used. Cults influence members by means of a coordinated program of psychological and social influence techniques, or brainwashing."
Singer has stated there are six conditions in the cult conversion through coercion process.
They are as follows:
1. Keep the person unaware of what is going on and the changes taking place
2. Control the person's time and, if possible, physical environment.
3. Create a sense of powerlessness, covert fear, and dependency.
4. Suppress much of the person's old behavior and attitudes.
5. Instill new behavior and attitudes.
6. Put forth a closed system of logic; allow no real input or criticism.
Again see her chart that correlates those six conditions to Lifton's eight criteria.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Singer also correlates this to the three conditions described by MIT researcher and professor Edgar Schein, which are "unfreezing," "changing" and then "refreezing."
Singer adapts this to the following:
"Destabilize a person's sense of self."
"Get the person to drastically reinterpret his or her life's history and radically alter his or her worldview and accept a new version of reality and causality."
"Develop in the person a dependence on the organization, and thereby turn the person into a deployable agent of the organization."
Based upon the many observations of members on this thread and the repeated pattern evident in thier statements the Butler group appears to not only fit the definition of a "cult," but also the process of "brainwashing" or thought reform.
ISKCON is quite well known as a "cult" and it has long been linked to allegations of brainwashing. That is, ISKCON uses its own process of coercive persuasion or thought reform.
This is a false statement and doesn't describe cult deprogramming.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Singer says that such deprogramming "is, providing members with information about the cult and showing them how their own decision-making power had been taken away from them."
What groups specifically are you referring to?
See [www.culteducation.com]
This document is linked from every page throughout the site and includes the following statement.
"The information within The Rick A. Ross Institute archives has been collected to offer the public a resource concerning groups called "cults," controversial organizations and movements.
However, the mention and/or inclusion of a group or leader within this archive does not define that group as a "cult" and/or an individual mentioned as either destructive and/or harmful. Instead, such inclusion simply reflects that archived articles and/or research is available about a group or person that has generated some interest and/or controversy.
All the information archived must be evaluated critically, through a process of independent and individual judgment. Please note that there are links often prominently posted to a group or movement's own official website, which reflect their views. It is important to see what they have to say."
The introduction at the Home page of the database also makes these distinctions.
There are some sections within the database such as Free Masonry, Wicca, Santeria, Satanism and others that do much to disabuse people of the myths and notions they may have about these groups not based upon facts.
Additionally, in subsections like Opus Dei and Perverted Justice both sides of the controversy surrounding these groups is evident.
I completely disagree. It does matter and the media has served a useful purpose by exposing cult groups that exploit people through brainwashing and subsequent undue influence. Cults should be blamed for the bad things they do.
People don't knowingly allow themselves "to be brainwashed."
As you can see from the expert writings above, ignorance is an important part of the process. There is no decision or implicit knowing cooperation "to be brainwased."
Agreed.
And part of that education is understanding thought reform and how it works in cults, not blaming former cult members for their own brainwashing. People don't brainwash themselves.
Agreed.
And it is through thougt reform and coercive persuasion techniques as described above that people are "duped and manipulated."
By recognizing this and including that recognition as a part of your "B.S. Detector" system you can avoid falling into a similar situation and build yourself back up stronger and more meaningfully informed.
However, blaming people for their own brainwashing is not a way to build them up. It rather tears them down unfairly and frankly without any basis in fact as outlined in the expert research above about cults and coercive persuasion techniques.
Quote
discussion really belongs on another thread
No. This is directly relevant to any discussion about cults and their techniques of recruiting and retaining members. It is also important in the recovery process for former cult members to recognize what happened to them whle they were in the cult. It helps to sort through that experience and the previously linked information is directly applicable to that process.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Psychologist Margaret Singer who worked with thousands of former cult members had these observations in her seminal study "Coming Out of Cults."
[b:4365eac989]Blurring of Mental Acuity [/b:4365eac989]
Most cult veterans are neither grossly incompetent nor blatantly disturbed. Nevertheless, they report -- and their families confirm -- subtle cognitive inefficiencies and changes that take some time to pass. Ex-cultists often have trouble putting into words the inefficiencies they want to describe. Jack, the physiology graduate, said, "It's more that after a while outside, something comes back. One day I realized my thinking had gradually expanded. I could see everything in more complex ways. The group had slowly, a step at a time, cut me off from anything but the simplest right-wrong notions. They keep you from thinking and reasoning about all the contingencies by always telling you, ‘Don't doubt, don't be negative.' And after a while you hardly think about anything except in yes-no, right-wrong, simpleminded ways." Ira, the factory worker, or Jack, now working as a hospital orderly, have to take simple jobs until they regain former levels of competence.
[b:4365eac989]Uncritical Passivity[/b:4365eac989]
Many ex-cultists report they accept almost every thing they hear, as if their pre-cult skills for evaluating and criticizing were in relative abeyance. They cannot listen and judge: they listen, believe, and obey. Simple remarks of friends, dates, co-workers, and roommates are taken as commands, even though the person does not feel like doing the bidding, or even abhors it. One woman had gotten up in the middle of the night to respond to the telephoned command of a near stranger: "I borrowed my dad's car to drive about 65 miles out into the country and help this guy I had just met once in a coffeehouse to transport some stolen merchandise, because he spoke in such a strong and authoritative way to me on the phone. I can't believe how much I still obey people."
When this behavior comes up in our group sessions, we discuss the various cults' injunction's against questioning doctrine or directives, and the effects of living for months or years in situations that encourage acquiescence. Ex-members of some of the more authoritarian cults describe constant urging to "surrender your mind .. accept ... melt ... flow with it . . Don't question now, later you will understand." Reluctance or objections are reprimanded: "Don't be negative, don't be resistant, surrender."
Quote
innocent victims
You seem to categorize former cult members into various groups. It is true that children most often never decided to join and that cult recruitment of disabled people is an especially evil act.
However, all former cult members were victimized by thought reform and essentially disabled through the process of "brainwahsing" as Singer points out repeatedly in her writings.
Quote
The documents you referenced, while quite erudite and well researched essays on mind control and indoctrination use extreme examples (e.g., police interrogation) and describe coercive and aversive methods to demonstrate the thesis that man can indeed be “brain washed” to a point. However, none of these documents provides an accurate template for my experiences with the Krishna group in Hawaii.
The previously linked articles do not simply "use extreme examples" and they are applicable to all destructive cult groups by definition.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Psychiatrist and author Robert Jay Lifton, who wrote "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism" defined cults as follows:
"Certain psychological themes which recur in these various historical contexts also arise in the study of cults. Cults can be identified by three characteristics:
1. a charismatic leader who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose their power;
2. a process I call coercive persuasion or thought reform;
3. economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie."
Note the second criteria, which is "thought reform" or "coercive persuasion." Both Lifton and sociologist Richard Ofshe describe this as a subtle process.
Here is Lifton's Chapter 22 defining though reform, which does not simply "use extreme examples."
See [www.culteducation.com]
Lifton's eight criteria are:
Milieu Control
Mystical Manipulation
The Demand for Purity
The Cult of Confession
The "Sacred Science"
Loading the Language
Doctrine Over Person
The Dispensing of Existence
See [www.culteducation.com]
This is Stanford University professor Richard Ofshe's paper on "coercive persuasion."
Ofshe says, "The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:
1. The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance
2. The use of an organized peer group
3. Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity
4. The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified
Quote
This model is more likely suitable to some cults, but also the U.S. Military, most governments, some bureaucracies and corporations, and some aspects of the public school system!
You seem to have confused different levels and categories of persuasion here with thought reform.
Singer breaks these levels down.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Singer says that persuasion can be identified in distinct categories as in education, advertising, propaganda, indoctrination and thought reform, but to varying degrees and within a different context and/or under different circumstances.
Regarding the military specifically Singer wrote a paper titled "How the United States Marine Corps Differs from Cults."
See [www.culteducation.com]
Singer lists 19 differences, but the last is the most relevant to our exchange on this thread.
"In the USMC, the methods of instruction are military training and education, even indoctrination into the traditions of the USMC, but brainwashing, or thought reform, is not used. Cults influence members by means of a coordinated program of psychological and social influence techniques, or brainwashing."
Singer has stated there are six conditions in the cult conversion through coercion process.
They are as follows:
1. Keep the person unaware of what is going on and the changes taking place
2. Control the person's time and, if possible, physical environment.
3. Create a sense of powerlessness, covert fear, and dependency.
4. Suppress much of the person's old behavior and attitudes.
5. Instill new behavior and attitudes.
6. Put forth a closed system of logic; allow no real input or criticism.
Again see her chart that correlates those six conditions to Lifton's eight criteria.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Singer also correlates this to the three conditions described by MIT researcher and professor Edgar Schein, which are "unfreezing," "changing" and then "refreezing."
Singer adapts this to the following:
"Destabilize a person's sense of self."
"Get the person to drastically reinterpret his or her life's history and radically alter his or her worldview and accept a new version of reality and causality."
"Develop in the person a dependence on the organization, and thereby turn the person into a deployable agent of the organization."
Based upon the many observations of members on this thread and the repeated pattern evident in thier statements the Butler group appears to not only fit the definition of a "cult," but also the process of "brainwashing" or thought reform.
ISKCON is quite well known as a "cult" and it has long been linked to allegations of brainwashing. That is, ISKCON uses its own process of coercive persuasion or thought reform.
Quote
cult deprogrammers have often used the same tactics as the cults themselves!
This is a false statement and doesn't describe cult deprogramming.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Singer says that such deprogramming "is, providing members with information about the cult and showing them how their own decision-making power had been taken away from them."
Quote
I see many good organizations and religions slandered on this website by a few people who have had bad experiences. I was shocked to see some of these listed as potential cults.
What groups specifically are you referring to?
See [www.culteducation.com]
This document is linked from every page throughout the site and includes the following statement.
"The information within The Rick A. Ross Institute archives has been collected to offer the public a resource concerning groups called "cults," controversial organizations and movements.
However, the mention and/or inclusion of a group or leader within this archive does not define that group as a "cult" and/or an individual mentioned as either destructive and/or harmful. Instead, such inclusion simply reflects that archived articles and/or research is available about a group or person that has generated some interest and/or controversy.
All the information archived must be evaluated critically, through a process of independent and individual judgment. Please note that there are links often prominently posted to a group or movement's own official website, which reflect their views. It is important to see what they have to say."
The introduction at the Home page of the database also makes these distinctions.
There are some sections within the database such as Free Masonry, Wicca, Santeria, Satanism and others that do much to disabuse people of the myths and notions they may have about these groups not based upon facts.
Additionally, in subsections like Opus Dei and Perverted Justice both sides of the controversy surrounding these groups is evident.
Quote
In the end, it doesn’t matter who is to blame for being exploited by the cult (outside of any criminal or civil rights violations).
I completely disagree. It does matter and the media has served a useful purpose by exposing cult groups that exploit people through brainwashing and subsequent undue influence. Cults should be blamed for the bad things they do.
Quote
In looking at your cult experience, if you can’t look at the fact that you had a part in allowing yourself to be brainwashed,
People don't knowingly allow themselves "to be brainwashed."
As you can see from the expert writings above, ignorance is an important part of the process. There is no decision or implicit knowing cooperation "to be brainwased."
Quote
Only through education and laws can we prevent the exploitation of others.
Agreed.
And part of that education is understanding thought reform and how it works in cults, not blaming former cult members for their own brainwashing. People don't brainwash themselves.
Quote
by realizing that just as you can be been duped and manipulated, you also have the ability to detect B.S. and have the power to build yourself back up.
Agreed.
And it is through thougt reform and coercive persuasion techniques as described above that people are "duped and manipulated."
By recognizing this and including that recognition as a part of your "B.S. Detector" system you can avoid falling into a similar situation and build yourself back up stronger and more meaningfully informed.
However, blaming people for their own brainwashing is not a way to build them up. It rather tears them down unfairly and frankly without any basis in fact as outlined in the expert research above about cults and coercive persuasion techniques.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
initiate
()
Date: June 07, 2006 03:50AM
Quote
initiateQuote
rrmoderator
Cult members are often so "brainwashed" they can't think clearly.
And with their critical thinking impaired by a group process and influence they are frequently unable to protect themselves or their own best interests.
Dr. Phil's mantra "What were we thinking?" doesn't seem to take this into consideration.
And blaming the victim for their own injuries in a cult situation isn't a meaningful response to the problem.
See [www.culteducation.com]
And also [www.culteducation.com]
Part of sorting through a cult experience is putting this in perspective and understanding the group's process of breaking people down and manipulating them.
Sharing how that process works is good preventive medicine for others that might potentially be victimized by a group or leader.
This discussion really belongs on another thread, but I will reply here. No doubt this website provides a tremendous free resource for individuals struggling with cult experiences and offers many solutions.
What follows are my thoughts regarding individuals who are relatively mentally stable. There are those who become involved in cults who need serious psychological and medical interventions. Nor does this post address people who truly are innocent victims such as children and people who have cognitive disabilities. Additionally, every cult is different and every person responds differently in each environment.
I will have to politely agree to disagree with you on a few points. The documents you referenced, while quite erudite and well researched essays on mind control and indoctrination use extreme examples (e.g., police interrogation) and describe coercive and aversive methods to demonstrate the thesis that man can indeed be “brain washed” to a point. However, none of these documents provides an accurate template for my experiences with the Krishna group in Hawaii. This model is more likely suitable to some cults, but also the U.S. Military, most governments, some bureaucracies and corporations, and some aspects of the public school system! Also, none of these writings acknowledges an individual’s power of discrimination, or the necessity to take personal responsibility. In these examples we are ever the stupid and sheepish victims of powers beyond our level of comprehension and control. We do not have any capacity to extricate ourselves from our condition without outside help. Sounds like the other side of the cult coin. This belief is precisely the reason we can be so susceptible to cultish activities. As you know, cult deprogrammers have often used the same tactics as the cults themselves!
Interesting that you use the word “mantra” to describe Dr. Phil’s popular saying! The comment, “What were we thinking!?” was addressed to the former members of the Krishna group that I have contact with, as we have a unique perspective looking back. And looking back at what I was thinking at the time I entered the cult, and later what I overlooked, is exactly what gave me the understanding, wisdom and strength to leave. Looking back at what I was thinking and comparing it to what I wanted in life and who I had intended to become and how I deviated from my dreams is what made me run like hell! The more responsibility I took, the more strength I gained. The more I looked at the pain I had caused myself and others, the quicker the pain went away. The fear and pain was replaced by strength and resolution. At the time I was a member, we were never systematically “brainwashed” as described in your articles. Recognizing that I had a conscious choice in all of this, and taking responsibility for my actions is how I got out of the situation and made a good life for myself.
The mantra “don’t blame the victim” supposes that each of us is incapable of thinking for ourselves or that we are all too weak minded to discriminate between right and wrong. Cults also want us to feel like we can not come up with the answers ourselves. If there is injury from the world or the cult, we had no part in it, no responsibility. This thinking is not only unrealistic, but detrimental to any real and permanent recovery. We have this innate psychological immune system that needs to be acknowledged. Making people think that they are victims and that their involvement in cults has some external etiology only succeeds in keeping them weak minded and incapable of taking responsibility for their lives. The key word is response. We have the ability to control our responses to an inimical force. Response Ability. Labeling a person a victim takes this ability away, something that cults also try to do.
And who is to judge? I see many good organizations and religions slandered on this website by a few people who have had bad experiences. I was shocked to see some of these listed as potential cults. It seems the fear of cults can also create the other side of the coin; the witch hunts. Instead of the church as the authority, certain streams of psychology and academic research are used as the authority. We need to be very careful.
Making people look at their choices and the consequences of their participation is a meaningful response to the problem, as it motivates one to not repeat the same mistakes in the future. Part of being a mature individual is recognizing that all our choices have consequences. By looking at and walking through the pain, we are no longer condemned to repeat our blunders, nor place ourselves under the jurisdiction of entities that do not have our best interest at heart. Pain does go away when it is denied or suppressed. We have pain for a reason. It is a good thing. It is an immune guidance system. While it is natural to avoid pain, it is not natural to prevent the experience of it when it comes to teach us something. To palliate the very system that has always brought people to positive action and real change is a crime. No one is supposed to feel “bad” anymore to the point that we no longer have the self confidence and sense of self to look at our mistakes, forgive ourselves, not wallow in guilt and self pity, and make the necessary corrections. We make mistakes. We must allow ourselves to make mistakes, feel bad, and then move on quickly to make the corrections. We must honor our ability to respond.
In the end, it doesn’t matter who is to blame for being exploited by the cult (outside of any criminal or civil rights violations). For example, if you have two students who have missed many classes and exams, they will both have to retake the course. It does not matter that one student missed so many lessons due to an illness and the other one missed out because they were skipping school. They are both in the same boat and have to make the same effort now to complete the course. Neither student was a victim. One student consciously made choices that jeopardized success in the course, the other succumbed to an illness. One might even suggest the possibility that the other student subconsciously got ill in order to not take the course. Our judgment of the excuses does not matter. In the end, they both need to do the same work. The focus now needs to be on completing the course. On leaving a cult, the focus needs to be on what has to be done now to make your life free and better.
Coupled with having to retake the course, or re-doing your life, you also need to look at what choices were made to cause the failure. Perhaps the one student was depressed about breaking up with a girlfriend while the other did not eat right and partied too much. In looking at your cult experience, if you can’t look at the fact that you had a part in allowing yourself to be brainwashed, allowed yourself to not think clearly, then you won’t know what to do in a similar situation. If a person can’t get through this stage, which involves some pain and embarrassment, then they take the risk of repeating the same mistakes or becoming involved with other forms of cultish groups and activities (e.g., they may leave the cult only to become addicted to the recovery movement).
Yes, there are evil and manipulative teachers, gurus, corporate leaders, religions, governments who have abused and caused harm to others throughout history by using the coercive and aversive methods described in your links. Only through education and laws can we prevent the exploitation of others. We must be ever vigilant in exposing offenders, as this website does very well. We must similarly be ever vigilant with ourselves.
You wrote, “Part of sorting through a cult experience is putting this in perspective and understanding the group's process of breaking people down and manipulating them.” Yes. And more, by realizing that just as you can be been duped and manipulated, you also have the ability to detect B.S. and have the power to build yourself back up. The more you recognize your complicity in the process, the choices that made it possible for you to be used, the more permanent the change and more powerful the inoculation against further exploitation will be.
You also wrote, “Sharing how that process works is good preventive medicine for others that might potentially be victimized by a group or leader.” This is what your website does best. Thank you for the forum.
RRMODERATOR,
Again, we will have to agree to disagree on one point. Hey, it’s your website, not mine. Yes, there is such a thing as mind control. Yes, people have systematically analyzed the phenomenon. But again, there is no acknowledgement of personal responsibility. The world view you present is a frightening one, where people have no power to think for themselves or resist the overtures of cults. Nor are they held accountable for their participation. In my view, this disallowing a person to look at their own actions and the proclivities that led them into the cult stymies a very important step in coming to understand how to navigate life and come to value oneself. This process is of course coupled with exposing the hypocrisies of the cult.
The extreme example you used of the woman taking orders against her will only demonstrates to me a pre-existing disposition and susceptibility of which was taken advantage by a cult that used brainwashing. The point is that not all cults or cultees are alike. Singer’s, (et al) indications for culthood just did not fit my personal experiences (over 15 years ago) with the Butler group in totality. But, why argue? It sounds like the group has changed dramatically.
Many of the early deprogrammers did use aversive methods such as kidnapping, restraint, and sleep deprivation. Some ended up in jail. Now they have standards and better practices because of this.
The bottom line is to take responsibility for your life and to acknowledge every individuals freedom of choice. Who is drawing the line, (beyond the obvious legal definitions of crimes and civil rights violations)? Who is the judge? Are you? Are the diverse streams of psychology? Are the myriad of religious leaders or politicians? My view is that it is up to each of us to decide for ourselves. I support a persons’ right to be a part of any belief system or group as long as there is no injury. Never will there be a time when everyone will agree about everything, especially when it comes to politics, religion, or education.
In my opinion, we have to be careful not to slander, exaggerate, build straw men, or believe every complaint when attempting to eradicate the dangerous variety of cultdom. I was surprised to see the Waldorf schools, for example, listed as a cult on your website. This is a stellar educational system. I’m well acquainted with the controversy, which is a separation of church and state issue, not that the schools are turning out little “Manchurian Candidates”. (BTW- the lawsuit has never come to fruition because the public Waldorf schools do not teach religion in the classroom.) There are other examples on your site, but I don’t want to debate the issue or be too critical of this website because it offers a tremendous service and resources. In the same way, no individual, group or organization is without flaw, but the striving for the greater good is where the true value lies.
I believe that we each have to make our choices and live with their consequences. Sorry, I do not share your view that cults have so much power over us without our ultimate consent (except by varieties of force or cognitive pathology). With freedom comes choice. With consent comes responsibility.
I stand by my post.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: June 07, 2006 04:50AM
Initiate:
We do live in a "frightening" world and cult brainwashing is one of the frightening things about it. We see it in suicide bombings, cult mass suicides and various related crimes, such as the gassing of Tokyo's subway system by Aum led by Shoko Asahara.
Utimately when human life is lost cult members are most often held accountable and have at times been given long prison sentences, such as the girls who followed Charles Manson that have been in prison for decades and Asahara's followers that have been sentenced to death.
More recently some compassion has been shown in the courts regarding cult brainwashing. For example in the Lee Boyd Malvo case, when the boy was sentenced to life, while his controller John Muhammad was given a death sentence.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Or, the case of Karen Robidoux. After her baby was starved to death within the group known as "The Body" due to its beliefs and dictates, the mother was set free, but the father/leader is now serving a life term in prison.
Patty Hearst was eventually set free by Jimmy Carter and pardoned by Bill Clinton, largely because we now understand brainwashing much better than during the 1970s when Hearst was convicted.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Other interesting recent court cases, which revolve around brainwashing, include Winnfred Wright and the Marcus Wesson murders.
See [www.culteducation.com]
And also [www.culteducation.com]
Your non-professional diagnosis is inconsistent and contradicts the extensive research and expert opinion provided by Lifton, Singer and Ofshe.
The reason early deprogrammers did involuntary interventions is becasue of cult brainwashing. That is, the cult members were so brainwashed there was no voluntary opportunity to intervene. This demonstates how severe the problem really is.
Overwhelmingly, the courts recognized this and criminal charges were repeatedly dropped and juries returned "not guilty" verdicts based largely upon the "lesser of two evils" defense, which is that "kidnapping" was a lesser evil than cult brainwashing and its consequences.
There are many people in extreme cults today that will die due to medical neglect or other abuses, but their families have no way to reach them or talk with them. And without involuntary intervention there is little hope of staging an intervention.
The Waldorf Schools are not "listed as a cult." This is a false statement.
Once again read the disclaimer and database introduction on the Home page.
See [www.culteducation.com]
There is a link to this disclaimer and explanation of site content from every Web site page.
And my previous post clarified this.
The Waldorf Schools, Rudolf Steiner and his philosophy, upon which the Waldorf Schools are based, continues to be controversial and draw concern, not only because of Church/State concerns, but because of the content of Waldorf teachings and its methodology.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Also see [www.waldorfcritics.org]
Here we are getting a bit off topic, ubt since you describe the Waldorf Schools as "a stellar educational system" it seems important to point out why the schools have received serious criticism, open opposition and have been the focus of litigation.
Here are a few definitive quotes from the PLANS Web site, which is critical of Waldorf Schools.
"Waldorf schools are an activity of Anthroposophy, a cult-like religious sect following the occult teachings of Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925). A huge amount of literature about Waldorf education has been produced within the closed system of Anthroposophy. Much of the available information fails to describe the spiritual mission of the Waldorf school system honestly. We have found that even experienced parents of Waldorf students usually know little about the Anthroposophical principles that determine the teaching methods and the Anthroposophical doctrine that permeates the curriculum."
"Waldorf education has never been examined critically to determine whether it lives up to its claims. Waldorf's two-year teacher training program is woefully inadequate. The first 'foundation' year is an Anthroposophical seminary program, consisting mostly of the study of Rudolf Steiner's occult philosophy and leading the teacher on Steiner's path to "initiation" as described in his book 'Knowledge of Higher Worlds and its Attainment.' Teacher trainees also must read Steiner's 'Reincarnation and Karma' and 'Occult Science.'"
"Steiner's theory of child development, based on reincarnation, karma, and 'the etheric body,' 'the astral body," and 'the I' differs significantly from the consensus of child development specialists. Waldorf theory leads to some questionable practices, especially in the teaching of reading, which Waldorf educators believe will damage children if even the alphabet is introduced before the 'change of teeth'; the teaching of science; and in the treatment of learning disabilities, which are believed to be a child's karma."
"Eugene Schwartz, a respected Waldorf master teacher and former director of teacher training at Sunbridge College in Spring Valley, New York, says, in a lecture at Sunbridge, November 13, 1999, regarding his own daughter's experience in Waldorf: 'I'm glad my daughter gets to speak about God every morning: that's why I send her to a Waldorf school . . . I send my daughter to a Waldorf school so that she can have a religious experience . . . when we deny that Waldorf schools are giving children religious experiences, we are denying the basis of Waldorf education . . . The time has come for us to stop pussyfooting around [theories] that will sound too strange if we tell parents what we are really doing . . . Tell everybody what we are about. The day they walk into the school, let them know...it is our responsibility to share with the parents those elements of Anthroposophy which will help them understand their children and fathom the mysterious ways in which we work. Yes, we are giving the children a version of Anthroposophy in the classroom; whether we mean to or not, it's there.' Schwartz was replaced as director of teacher training at Sunbridge shortly after making these public remarks. Perhaps other Waldorf leaders are not ready for this level of openness."
"Parents should be told that the science and history curriculum will be based on Steiner's reading of the 'Akashic Record,' according to which the 'ancients' had clairvoyant powers which Anthroposophic initiation may help students attain some day. They should be told that loyal Steiner followers believe humans once lived on the lost continent of Atlantis and will one day live on Venus, Jupiter, and Vulcan. They should be told that teachers study a medieval scheme in which race, blood, and the 'four temperaments' will help them understand their students' development. Not all Waldorf teachers believe the 'wacky' things Steiner said, but many are deeply involved in Steiner study (faculty meetings generally include a Steiner study session). Teachers typically do not discuss Anthroposophy with parents."
"Parents should be told that although Waldorf bills itself as 'arts-based' education to attract holistically minded parents, creativity is actually discouraged, and many of the 'artistic' activities in Waldorf are more accurately described as religious rituals, such as meditation on symbols important in Anthroposophy. Children spend a lot of time copying the teacher's work directly off the board. Fourth graders embroidering a purse must all use the same pattern (often with esoteric symbols)."
Perhaps your own personal religious beliefs predispose you initiate to see the Waldorf Schools as "stellar," but most people would not. And the curriculum is inappropriate for public funding.
Here you seem to say that you don't care about the facts that have been established through research by experts such as Singer, Lifton and Ofshe, but instead have chosen to believe subjectively in your own version or vision of cults and cult members.
Please understand that though you are free to believe whatever you want it is unwise for you to advise others based upon those beliefs here.
It is more prudent for those concerned about cults and their techniques of persuasion to read the published papers and books of recognized experts in the field with direct professional experience and/or research results.
Quote
The world view you present is a frightening one, where people have no power to think for themselves or resist the overtures of cults. Nor are they held accountable for their participation.
We do live in a "frightening" world and cult brainwashing is one of the frightening things about it. We see it in suicide bombings, cult mass suicides and various related crimes, such as the gassing of Tokyo's subway system by Aum led by Shoko Asahara.
Quote
there is no acknowledgement of personal responsibility
Utimately when human life is lost cult members are most often held accountable and have at times been given long prison sentences, such as the girls who followed Charles Manson that have been in prison for decades and Asahara's followers that have been sentenced to death.
More recently some compassion has been shown in the courts regarding cult brainwashing. For example in the Lee Boyd Malvo case, when the boy was sentenced to life, while his controller John Muhammad was given a death sentence.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Or, the case of Karen Robidoux. After her baby was starved to death within the group known as "The Body" due to its beliefs and dictates, the mother was set free, but the father/leader is now serving a life term in prison.
Patty Hearst was eventually set free by Jimmy Carter and pardoned by Bill Clinton, largely because we now understand brainwashing much better than during the 1970s when Hearst was convicted.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Other interesting recent court cases, which revolve around brainwashing, include Winnfred Wright and the Marcus Wesson murders.
See [www.culteducation.com]
And also [www.culteducation.com]
Quote
a pre-existing disposition
Your non-professional diagnosis is inconsistent and contradicts the extensive research and expert opinion provided by Lifton, Singer and Ofshe.
Quote
early deprogrammers did use aversive methods such as kidnapping, restraint, and sleep deprivation.
The reason early deprogrammers did involuntary interventions is becasue of cult brainwashing. That is, the cult members were so brainwashed there was no voluntary opportunity to intervene. This demonstates how severe the problem really is.
Overwhelmingly, the courts recognized this and criminal charges were repeatedly dropped and juries returned "not guilty" verdicts based largely upon the "lesser of two evils" defense, which is that "kidnapping" was a lesser evil than cult brainwashing and its consequences.
There are many people in extreme cults today that will die due to medical neglect or other abuses, but their families have no way to reach them or talk with them. And without involuntary intervention there is little hope of staging an intervention.
Quote
I was surprised to see the Waldorf schools, for example, listed as a cult on your website. This is a stellar educational system.
The Waldorf Schools are not "listed as a cult." This is a false statement.
Once again read the disclaimer and database introduction on the Home page.
See [www.culteducation.com]
There is a link to this disclaimer and explanation of site content from every Web site page.
And my previous post clarified this.
The Waldorf Schools, Rudolf Steiner and his philosophy, upon which the Waldorf Schools are based, continues to be controversial and draw concern, not only because of Church/State concerns, but because of the content of Waldorf teachings and its methodology.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Also see [www.waldorfcritics.org]
Here we are getting a bit off topic, ubt since you describe the Waldorf Schools as "a stellar educational system" it seems important to point out why the schools have received serious criticism, open opposition and have been the focus of litigation.
Here are a few definitive quotes from the PLANS Web site, which is critical of Waldorf Schools.
"Waldorf schools are an activity of Anthroposophy, a cult-like religious sect following the occult teachings of Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925). A huge amount of literature about Waldorf education has been produced within the closed system of Anthroposophy. Much of the available information fails to describe the spiritual mission of the Waldorf school system honestly. We have found that even experienced parents of Waldorf students usually know little about the Anthroposophical principles that determine the teaching methods and the Anthroposophical doctrine that permeates the curriculum."
"Waldorf education has never been examined critically to determine whether it lives up to its claims. Waldorf's two-year teacher training program is woefully inadequate. The first 'foundation' year is an Anthroposophical seminary program, consisting mostly of the study of Rudolf Steiner's occult philosophy and leading the teacher on Steiner's path to "initiation" as described in his book 'Knowledge of Higher Worlds and its Attainment.' Teacher trainees also must read Steiner's 'Reincarnation and Karma' and 'Occult Science.'"
"Steiner's theory of child development, based on reincarnation, karma, and 'the etheric body,' 'the astral body," and 'the I' differs significantly from the consensus of child development specialists. Waldorf theory leads to some questionable practices, especially in the teaching of reading, which Waldorf educators believe will damage children if even the alphabet is introduced before the 'change of teeth'; the teaching of science; and in the treatment of learning disabilities, which are believed to be a child's karma."
"Eugene Schwartz, a respected Waldorf master teacher and former director of teacher training at Sunbridge College in Spring Valley, New York, says, in a lecture at Sunbridge, November 13, 1999, regarding his own daughter's experience in Waldorf: 'I'm glad my daughter gets to speak about God every morning: that's why I send her to a Waldorf school . . . I send my daughter to a Waldorf school so that she can have a religious experience . . . when we deny that Waldorf schools are giving children religious experiences, we are denying the basis of Waldorf education . . . The time has come for us to stop pussyfooting around [theories] that will sound too strange if we tell parents what we are really doing . . . Tell everybody what we are about. The day they walk into the school, let them know...it is our responsibility to share with the parents those elements of Anthroposophy which will help them understand their children and fathom the mysterious ways in which we work. Yes, we are giving the children a version of Anthroposophy in the classroom; whether we mean to or not, it's there.' Schwartz was replaced as director of teacher training at Sunbridge shortly after making these public remarks. Perhaps other Waldorf leaders are not ready for this level of openness."
"Parents should be told that the science and history curriculum will be based on Steiner's reading of the 'Akashic Record,' according to which the 'ancients' had clairvoyant powers which Anthroposophic initiation may help students attain some day. They should be told that loyal Steiner followers believe humans once lived on the lost continent of Atlantis and will one day live on Venus, Jupiter, and Vulcan. They should be told that teachers study a medieval scheme in which race, blood, and the 'four temperaments' will help them understand their students' development. Not all Waldorf teachers believe the 'wacky' things Steiner said, but many are deeply involved in Steiner study (faculty meetings generally include a Steiner study session). Teachers typically do not discuss Anthroposophy with parents."
"Parents should be told that although Waldorf bills itself as 'arts-based' education to attract holistically minded parents, creativity is actually discouraged, and many of the 'artistic' activities in Waldorf are more accurately described as religious rituals, such as meditation on symbols important in Anthroposophy. Children spend a lot of time copying the teacher's work directly off the board. Fourth graders embroidering a purse must all use the same pattern (often with esoteric symbols)."
Perhaps your own personal religious beliefs predispose you initiate to see the Waldorf Schools as "stellar," but most people would not. And the curriculum is inappropriate for public funding.
Quote
I do not share your view that cults have so much power over us without our consent. With freedom comes choice. With consent comes responsibility.
I stand by my post.
Here you seem to say that you don't care about the facts that have been established through research by experts such as Singer, Lifton and Ofshe, but instead have chosen to believe subjectively in your own version or vision of cults and cult members.
Please understand that though you are free to believe whatever you want it is unwise for you to advise others based upon those beliefs here.
It is more prudent for those concerned about cults and their techniques of persuasion to read the published papers and books of recognized experts in the field with direct professional experience and/or research results.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
initiate
()
Date: June 07, 2006 05:04AM
Quote
rrmoderator
Regarding the military specifically Singer wrote a paper titled "How the United States Marine Corps Differs from Cults."
See [www.culteducation.com]
Singer lists 19 differences, but the last is the most relevant to our exchange on this thread.
"In the USMC, the methods of instruction are military training and education, even indoctrination into the traditions of the USMC, but brainwashing, or thought reform, is not used. Cults influence members by means of a coordinated program of psychological and social influence techniques, or brainwashing."
Singer has stated there are six conditions in the cult conversion through coercion process.
They are as follows:
1. Keep the person unaware of what is going on and the changes taking place
2. Control the person's time and, if possible, physical environment.
3. Create a sense of powerlessness, covert fear, and dependency.
4. Suppress much of the person's old behavior and attitudes.
5. Instill new behavior and attitudes.
6. Put forth a closed system of logic; allow no real input or criticism.
P.S.~
I guess Ms. Singer overlooked [b:e6e82c945d]Mai Lai, Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, and Haditha[/b:e6e82c945d] ....when it comes to the US Militarys' capacity to replicate dangerous cult behavior....Poor Lindy England. She and others were in fact both subjected to a cult-like Milieu Control, the six conditions of cult conversion and held responsible for their actions.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: June 07, 2006 05:17AM
intitiate:
You are comparing apples and oranges and attempting to apply misleading examples.
Singer is describing the difference between the general practices of the Marine Corp. and cults, not the running of a specific military unit or prison camp/facility.
The specific study that would match what happened in Iraq or other extreme prison environements would parallel Dr. Philip Zimbardo's "Prison Experiment."
See [www.culteducation.com]
Quoting the NY Times article about the experiment.
"In 1971 researchers at Stanford University created a simulated prison in the basement of the campus psychology building. They randomly assigned 24 students to be either prison guards or prisoners for two weeks.
Within days the "guards" had become swaggering and sadistic, to the point of placing bags over the prisoners' heads, forcing them to strip naked and encouraging them to perform sexual acts.
The landmark Stanford experiment and studies like it give insight into how ordinary people can, under the right circumstances, do horrible things - including the mistreatment of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq."
Zimbardo, is a professor of psychology at Stanford and a past president of the American Psychological Association. He demonstrated through his experiment the power of persuasion within a controlled environment.
This would be similar to a cult compound, say an ISKCON ashram or perhaps a retreat run by Christ Butler.
Additionally, both Singer and Lifton's research in the 1950s was based upon prison camp populations, within North Korean Communist POW camps.
Again, you are inconsistent and don't cite the research correctly.
Quote
Singer overlooked Mai Lai, Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, and Haditha ....when it comes to the US Militarys' capacity to replicate dangerous cult behavior
You are comparing apples and oranges and attempting to apply misleading examples.
Singer is describing the difference between the general practices of the Marine Corp. and cults, not the running of a specific military unit or prison camp/facility.
The specific study that would match what happened in Iraq or other extreme prison environements would parallel Dr. Philip Zimbardo's "Prison Experiment."
See [www.culteducation.com]
Quoting the NY Times article about the experiment.
"In 1971 researchers at Stanford University created a simulated prison in the basement of the campus psychology building. They randomly assigned 24 students to be either prison guards or prisoners for two weeks.
Within days the "guards" had become swaggering and sadistic, to the point of placing bags over the prisoners' heads, forcing them to strip naked and encouraging them to perform sexual acts.
The landmark Stanford experiment and studies like it give insight into how ordinary people can, under the right circumstances, do horrible things - including the mistreatment of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq."
Zimbardo, is a professor of psychology at Stanford and a past president of the American Psychological Association. He demonstrated through his experiment the power of persuasion within a controlled environment.
This would be similar to a cult compound, say an ISKCON ashram or perhaps a retreat run by Christ Butler.
Additionally, both Singer and Lifton's research in the 1950s was based upon prison camp populations, within North Korean Communist POW camps.
Again, you are inconsistent and don't cite the research correctly.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
kali
()
Date: June 07, 2006 10:42AM
The secret of mind-control is simple--so simple that Rushkoff can sum it up in one sentence: "In whatever milieu coercion is practiced, the routine follows the same basic steps: Generate disorientation, induce regression, and then become the target’s transferred parent figure" (64). Hard-sell car salesmen, CIA interrogators and psychwar ops, and cult leaders have long used this technique."
This is a quote from Coercion:Why We Listen To What "They" Say
By Douglas Rushkoff
Has anyone read this book?
This is a quote from Coercion:Why We Listen To What "They" Say
By Douglas Rushkoff
Has anyone read this book?
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
initiate
()
Date: June 07, 2006 11:26AM
Quote
initiate wrote: The world view you present is a frightening one, where people have no power to think for themselves or resist the overtures of cults. Nor are they held accountable for their participation.
rrmoderator wrote: We do live in a "frightening" world and cult brainwashing is one of the frightening things about it. We see it in suicide bombings, cult mass suicides and various related crimes……..
No doubt cult activity that promotes crimes is frightening. I was making a different point. The world view you present paints everyone out to be powerless victims with no control over cult influences, where people have no faculty to think for themselves or resist the overtures of cults. Nor are they held accountable for their participation. I am concerned about the belief that cultees are not responsible for their involvement in a cult unless they commit a crime. Sorry, some of your statements sound reminiscent of the Salem witch hunts or Joseph McCarthy fearing “bewitchment” or “communist infiltration” all couched in psychological lingo.
It is well known that people can be hypnotized and that short-term, controlled psychological experiments such as the one you cited about the prison guards prove that people can be manipulated into doing things they normally would not. Fraternity houses have been doing this for years! We have no disagreement here, so enough of the cut and paste already! But even in this, there is always a choice. In most of these types of experiments there is always someone who is an anomaly. There is always someone who does not behave as predicted. Again, a choice.
The ability to make a choice and be free to acknowledge a mistake without self-judgment (e.g., guilt), and change one’s mind is denied a person who is considered a victim. Not that there is no such thing as a victim or perpetrator in forced and criminal circumstances. There is however, a seminal moment when one voluntarily decides to get involved in a cult and put aside ones education and discernment. There is always an internal as well as an external antecedent. When it is always someone else’s fault, there can be no real and permanent change. This view is supported by many in the psychological community, which, by the way, is as diverse as any religion or political ideology! There is no consensus.
Quote
Ultimately when human life is lost cult members are most often held accountable and have at times been given long prison sentences, such as the girls who followed Charles Manson that have been in prison for decades and Asahara's followers that have been sentenced to death….
Of course cult leaders and members should be held accountable for crimes! This does not negate every member's personal responsibility for joining and participating in a cult! Just as they can be convicted appropriately for crimes, they are also responsible for themselves! How is it that you make a distinction between one being responsible for committing a crime, but not for eating a guru’s toenails (which isn’t illegal last time I looked)? Boldly, I say, blame the “victim”! I knew I had gone off the deep end when I found myself greedily hoarding some “prasadam” (food) off of Siddha's plate (considered holy and pure). I thought, “there was a time when I would think this was weird, eating some other guy’s saliva! Wait a minute. It is weird!” Which led me to, “What was I thinking!?” and led me out the door. Deconstructing the decisions and accounting for my responsibility in joining and involving myself in the group did not cause me any psychological damage. I’m sure you will have a million and one quotes and cut and paste to argue the point….after all, I am on your turf. As I have said before, this is one man’s opinion. I don’t need a cadre of experts to validate my point of view any more than I need a guru to authenticate my life. I’ve said enough on the subject.
On to the Waldorf schools ………
Quote
The Waldorf Schools, Rudolf Steiner and his philosophy, upon which the Waldorf Schools are based, continues to be controversial and draw concern, not only because of Church/State concerns, but because of the content of Waldorf teachings and its methodology.
Here are a few definitive quotes from the PLANS Web site, which is critical of Waldorf Schools…… Waldorf schools are an activity of Anthroposophy, a cult-like religious sect following the occult teachings of Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925).....
I really doubt you know anything about the Waldorf curriculum, methodology, and pedagogy.
The PLANS organization website you quote extensively from is the mouthpiece of Dan Dugan, who initiated the lawsuit and is full of inaccuracies and deceptions. It is obvious that you have no real knowledge or experience of the schools or the people involved. The only source you draw from is Dan Dugan's website! Note the use of the buzz word “cult-like”. Your opinions are not based on reasoned and thorough research or experience.
Quote
A huge amount of literature about Waldorf education has been produced within the closed system of Anthroposophy. Much of the available information fails to describe the spiritual mission of the Waldorf school system honestly. We have found that even experienced parents of Waldorf students usually know little about the Anthroposophical principles that determine the teaching methods and the Anthroposophical doctrine that permeates the curriculum."..
Again note buzz words “closed system”. My experience with Waldorf schools is that they are very open about Anthroposophy with parents and don’t teach it to the students. I am sure there are exceptions and fanatics here as well as anywhere else. Teachers are required to study Steiner, but are not required to pledge allegiance to or become members of the Anthroposophical Society.
The following link gives you some comments on Waldorf education. I hate to cut and paste, but here are some essential points if you are interested.
[www.waldorfanswers.org]
Another good resource:
[en.wikipedia.org]
Some quotes:
“The United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, known as UNESCO, has chosen many Waldorf schools to be associated project schools, including at least seven UNESCO Waldorf schools in Germany alone, as well as schools in Africa and Asia.
UNESCO also sponsored an exhibit about the Waldorf schools at the 44th Session of their International Conference on Education in Geneva. An exhibition catalog was published by UNESCO under the title Waldorf Education Exhibition Catalog On Occasion of the 4th Session of the International Conference on Education of UNESCO in Geneva.”
“A government study of English Waldorf schools showed that Waldorf pupils' reading skills tend to lag behind state-educated pupils in the first few grades, but that by 5th grade (11 years of age) the Waldorf pupils have caught up and thereafter are ahead of children of the same age who are educated in state schools. Waldorf schools maintain that the literacy-building techniques Waldorf schools use during early childhood—storytelling, music and singing, games, speech, and movement exercises—help to nourish imagination and a love of language which will be carried long after the child learns to read. It is worth noting that Finland, which sends its children to school at a comparable or later age, is one of the most literate societies in the world. Research by Piaget [a major educational philosopher who is required reading in every university teacher education program in the US] and others also supports the view that early academic learning actually interferes with the development in early childhood of faculties that will enhance later learning capacity.”
“As long as the exemplary work of the Waldorf School Movement continues to spread its influence as it has done over the past decades, we can all look forward with hope.” - Bruno Walter, conductor
“The advent of the Waldorf Schools was in my opinion the greatest contribution to world peace and understanding of the century.” - Willy Brandt, former Chancellor West Germany and Nobel Peace Prize Laureate.
Douglas Sloan, Ph D, Professor of Education, Teachers College, Columbia University:
"Based on a comprehensive, integrated understanding of the human being, a detailed account of child development, and with a curriculum and teaching practice that seeks unity of intellectual, emotional and ethical development at every point, Waldorf education deserves the attention of all concerned with education and the human future."
Jack Miller, Professor, Coordinator of Holistic and Aesthetic Education in the Department of Curriculum, Teaching and Learning at the University of Toronto:
"Waldorf education has been an important model of holistic education for almost a century. It is one of the very few forms of education that acknowledges the soul-life of children and nurtures that life. It is truly an education for the whole child and will continue to be an important model of education as we move into the 21st century."
(Personal statement 14 July, 2002)
Paul Bayers, Professor at Teachers College, Columbia University:
"The importance of storytelling, of the natural rhythms of daily life, of the evolutionary changes in the child, of art as the necessary underpinning of learning, and of the aesthetic environment as a whole - all basic to Waldorf education for the past 70 years - are being "discovered" and verified by researchers unconnected to the Waldorf movement."
Cal State University education professors David Jelenik, PhD and Crystal Olsen, PhD have only positive things to say about Waldorf education and encourage their students to take education courses at Rudolf Steiner College in Sacramento, California, for which they get credit.
[www.awsna.org]
[www.consciouschoice.com]
[www.southerncrossreview.org]
[www.steinercollege.org]
Quote
Perhaps your own personal religious beliefs predispose you initiate to see the Waldorf Schools as "stellar," but most people would not. And the curriculum is inappropriate for public funding.
The veiled personal attack here? I guess the above educators, artists, the United Nations , ex-students, etc. all have “personal religious beliefs that predispose” them to think Waldorf education is of any value?
[www.waldorfanswers.org]
I am not a follower of Rudolf Steiner or Anthroposophy, but appreciate many of the ideas on art, agriculture and education. I also appreciate Henry Ford's innovations, yet he was a virulent anti-Semite and Hitler apologist! That would not stop me from buying a Ford if I liked the car. Waldorf schools appeal to some and not to others. Choice and diversity is a great thing. Public schools have been failing and opening many educational experiments in the form of magnate schools. Waldorf is only one of them. Waldorf has had over eighty years of success without going through all the pendulum swings that public education has suffered (regarding language arts and mathematics instruction).
Teachers in public schools are allowed to follow any religion as long as they don’t teach it. The same is true in Waldorf schools. Teachers in Waldorf schools are required to study Steiner just as education majors at public universities are required to study Piaget and Skinner. Skinner is no party. No educational system is perfect, nor are all of its teachers.
Steiner had some strange ideas that don’t fit my world view, so no, my interest in Waldorf education has nothing to do with my personal beliefs. I am actually a very secular Jew who likes to argue with my friend, a reform Rabbi. In my professional and personal life, due to proximity, I have had a lot of contact with Waldorf schools, teachers, and students. I have worked with many Waldorf graduates and have found them to excel in several areas compared to the publicly educated. I could write a whole essay on this. Or perhaps I am deluded due to milieu control!
Cheers. Perhaps Chris Butler devotees will come out of the woodwork and tell us more stories. And if I can remember anything else or find out anything else, I’ll post again.
I remain, yours in anti-cult fervor!
"The wisest follow their own direction" ~Euripides
"I am a sect by myself." ~ Thomas Jefferson
"Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2019 06:31AM by rrmoderator.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
initiate
()
Date: June 07, 2006 12:31PM
The following is a reply to my questions about the Butler school in the Philipines on a Filipino forum~
Re: Need Info on Krishna group in Phillipines
As I know this group
they believe on the concept of
Reincarnation.
It is another religious groups
i think established by Chris Butler
you may check registration documents
in Securities Exchange Commision.
Anyone willing to do the leg work can check the registration documents at the [i:3223be77c3][b:3223be77c3]Securities Exchange Commision in the Phillipines[/b:3223be77c3][/i:3223be77c3]. Google the website.
Look up all the known monikers such as Science of Identity, Chaitanya Mission, Down to Earth. Look up all schools.
Hope this helps.
Re: Need Info on Krishna group in Phillipines
As I know this group
they believe on the concept of
Reincarnation.
It is another religious groups
i think established by Chris Butler
you may check registration documents
in Securities Exchange Commision.
Anyone willing to do the leg work can check the registration documents at the [i:3223be77c3][b:3223be77c3]Securities Exchange Commision in the Phillipines[/b:3223be77c3][/i:3223be77c3]. Google the website.
Look up all the known monikers such as Science of Identity, Chaitanya Mission, Down to Earth. Look up all schools.
Hope this helps.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
just-googling
()
Date: June 07, 2006 07:42PM
Quote
initiate
(
As Dr.Phil would say, [b:dc96340012]"WHAT WERE WE THINKING!!!!???????"[/b:dc96340012]
:idea: We were thinking we were fortunate and blessed enough to have come into contact with the "Messiah" who could teach us the truth... and the truth would set us free....
:idea: We were thinking we were becoming spiritually enlightened by listening to lectures about how we were not this material body, and how this world was not our home. To the point that we did not care for such mundane things as buying a house, or making a nest egg for the future. (Paying the rent for the next 40 years or so and putting food on the table did not seem to enter the equation)....
:idea: We were thinking we were on our way back to the Godhead by incessantly chanting Sanskrit mantras....
:?: Whether or not we were just deluded zombies or whether we get any brownie points in God's eyes??? Maybe we will find out the answers to this after death????
HOWEVER, on the negative side, several MENTAL ABERRATIONS displayed by our famous guru were now becoming manifested, and some of these have been previously delineated in previous posts, but to summarize:
:o DELUSIONAL PARANOIA: As evidenced by the "CONSPIRACY THEORIES" put forth by the guru, which were absolute nonsense and had not a drop of truth to them...
:o OBSESSIVE-COMPULSIVE: Being neurotic about food preparations and trivial details related to food preparations. Irrational criticism of food preparations given by the disciples...
:o EGOCENTRICITY, MEGALOMANIA: Thinking oneself to be the only "messiah" on the planet earth, and thus putting down all other spiritual teachers, etc.
:lol: NAME CHANGES: From Sai, to Siddhaswarupananada Goswami to Prabhupad, to Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa, to Jagat Guru, to Jagad Guru, back to Chris Butler... maybe the next name change should be "Siddhaswaroopslickmybootsananda Powermahamsa."???
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.