I can confirm Jagged Guru's authenticity as a fellow cult kid. I know this person.

I find it curious Pam Ho admits both ISKCON and SOI are "cults." That is an unexpected concession from her.

But as Rama das says, she refuses to criticize CHirs Butler beyond saying he can be a bit "bossy." She obscures the respect Chris demands as "Jagat Guru," pretending he claims no special status above other gurus. That is false for anyone who has encountered the cult on a more than superficial way. So why does she pretend this to be true?

The unlisted video of Tulsi adopts the same cult recruitment pitch that Chris has long used. Krishna is no different from your the God you currently have a relationship with. You just know God as Jehovah or some other name, not aware that his highest name is "Krishna." Try practicing the name "Krishna." Try chanting his name with the mama mantra, "Hare Krishna, Hare Rama." See. Not so painful. You don't have to abandon your old faith. The Science of Identity is not a "religion." It is just a SCIENCE which can help you learn how to be more pleasing to God.

How would you like to come to some classes and feasts where you can find bliss by chanting God's divine name with other young people?

Hi All,

I can back up JaggedGuru's validity as well. There are more and more of us :)

Hopefully not off topic, but give I grew up in SOI and I'm talking about my experiences, I'll assume it's okay. I've started a blog discussing the cult and a few other topics related to it. I've kept some aspects deliberately generic because I want to appeal to a wider audience, and try to provide some education through my experiences. I've decided to take a break indefinitely from the videos because they were taking too much of a toll on me. I had many sleepless nights and one night even woke up screaming at my husband that something was trying to get him after a bad dream. I know people like Pam Ho like to try to minimise those experiences, but to me that is the very real impact of the trauma of how I was raised.

Anyway you can find the blog here: Eigener Herr Blog.

I already have three posts. The first is a poem that I wrote about Chris Butler.

The second is a dissection of the message of the Tulsi Gabbard video and the hidden agenda within it and the issues I find with that message.

The third I wrote in response to what Rama has been dealing with today, as it's an attitude all of us from the cult have come across many times. I wanted to dismantle the attitudes that come with those experiences.

I've already had a few people leaving negative messages on my Youtube videos, so I take great delight in deleting those. But mostly I have had positive and supportive e-mails from random strangers and ex members about the videos and speaking out. The positives have definitely outweighed the negatives. People are starting to listen. More are speaking out. There's nothing Chris Butler or SOI can do about that.

Butler is an insane megalomanic.
And his prize brainwashed pupil is Tulsi (Tulasi) Gabbard.
This is all people need to understand.
She has surrendered her critical thinking skills, body and soul to Butler.
Just understand that concept.
This has nothing to do with religion, nor being a “Hindu”.
It has everything to do with obfuscation, with deceit.
Butler will do and say anything to maintain his money, power and control.
Many many people, children and adults, have been seriously harmed by this man and by this cult. There have been deaths, there have been suicides.
Eigenerherr is correct- the truth is coming out and there is nothing that can stop that.

[flashlightonroaches.wordpress.com]

[www.iskcondesiretree.com]

Pamho is the protocol greeting among ISKCON members, it stands for:
Please Accept My Humble Obeisances

Hey Pam, please accept my not-so-humble exposé.

Before you, many attempts were made to infiltrate and muddle discussions and the topic here; each time, he/she is sent back with tail tucked between the legs. What happened to your superior knowledge? Chaitanya said that you’ll be undefeatable in any debate. No wonder your crazy gurudev is so public-shy; because outside the group, he’s got nothing between the ears. What does that say to the followers?

Pam Ho wrote: Sometime people say that Bhaktivedanta and Butler claim they are not Hindu, but that is taken out of context.

Okay ... were these taken out of context too?

On Women:
Now, in the Manu-samhita it is clearly stated that a woman should not be given freedom. That does not mean that women are to be kept as slaves, but they are like children. The demons have now neglected such injunctions, and they think that women should be given as much freedom as men.
Bhagavad-Gita As It Is, Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, 1972. Chapter 16, verse 7, purport

I was student of psychology in my college life. Dr. Urquhart said, I remember still, that the brain substance has been found up to 64 ounce, while brain substance of woman has been found, highest, 34 ounce. Therefore woman class (laughs) is not so intelligent as man. There is no question of competition. It is actual, scientific fact.
Lecture on Srimad Bhagavatam, Canto 1, Chapter 2, verse 6; Montreal; August 3, 1968

A man is always famous for his aggression toward a beautiful woman, and such aggression is sometimes considered rape. Although rape is not legally allowed, it is a fact that a woman likes a man who is very expert at rape.
Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, 1999. Canto 4, Chapter 25, verse 41, purport

A woman’s attachment to her husband may elevate her to the body of a man in her next life, but a mans attachment to woman will degrade him, and in his next life he will get the body of a woman.
Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, 1999. Canto 3, Chapter 31, verse 41, purport

On Blacks and Sudras (slaves):
Sudra is to be controlled only. They are never given to be freedom. Just like in America. The blacks were slaves. They were under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied.
Room Conversation, February 14, 1977, Mayapura

A first-class Rolls Royce car, and who is sitting there? A third-class negro. This is going on. You’ll find these things in Europe and America. This is going on. A first-class car and a third-class negro. That’s all. Is it not?
Room Conversation, October 5, 1975

Sudras have no brain. In America also, the whole America once belonged to the Red Indians. Why they could not improve? The land was there. Why these foreigners, the Europeans, came and improved? So sudras cannot do this. They cannot make any correction.
Discussion with Syamasundara dasa about John Dewey, 1976

On Gays:
It appears here that the homosexual appetite of males for each other is created in this episode of the creation of the demons by Brahma. In other words, the homosexual appetite of a man for another man is demoniac and is not for any sane male in the ordinary course of life.
Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, 1999. Canto 3, Chapter 20, verse 26, purport

That means they are gliding down towards hell, that’s all. Yositam sangi-sangam. Now they are coming to the platform of homosex. This is their advancement, spiritual advancement. Yositam sangi-sangam. This is Coca-cola, everywhere.
Morning Walk, May 21, 1975, Melbourne

Homosex, what is that religion? And they’re passing to homosex, religion. They’re getting married man to man. Most degraded.
Room Conversation, February 16, 1977, Mayapura

On Science:
Modern scientists and so-called scholars think that there are no living entities on planets other than this one. Recently they have said that they have gone to the Moon but did not find any living entities there. But Srimad-Bhagavatam and the other Vedic literatures do not agree with this foolish conception.
Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, 1999. Canto 7, Chapter 14, verse 36, purport

On Hitler:
So on the whole, the conclusion is that the Aryans spread in Europe also, and the Americans, they also spread from Europe. So the intelligent class of human being, they belong to the Aryans, Aryan family. Just like Hitler claimed that he belonged to the Aryan family. Of course, they belonged to the Aryan families.
BG 9.3, Melbourne, April 21, 1976


Srila Prabhupada: Expert Historian and Big, Big Feminist
Radhika Bianchi
[www.youtube.com]

I had an image in my mind of what Pam Ho looked like. Shucks, I was finding her be attractive. But, shucks, I will concede, in part it was her mind, her female energy that I liked. It brings to mind a saying I heard somewhere: "You are not the body." I guess this is more true of some of us than others!

Pam, I understand you are hoping to be granted sincerity, even as we might disagree on things. But I have difficulty understanding why someone who was not a member of the cult would have taken the time to immerse themself into such a close study of Chris' teachings. Because they gave away books and ran "Jagat Guru Speaks" on the local television channel? That sounds a bit off.

At the same time, you do say things I cannot believe a devotee of Siddha would say, like when he say he is just one guru among many, nothing special. Did I get that right? Is that your belief?

I think Vox makes a strong argument when he writes:

"And his prize brainwashed pupil is Tulsi (Tulasi) Gabbard.

She has surrendered her critical thinking skills, body and soul to Butler."

That allegation is quite different from the allegation John F Kennedy would take orders from the Pope as the relationship between a Catholic layperson and the Pope is, despite the talking points of both ISKCON and SOI, quite different than that of a devotee and the guru dev in the Bhakti tradition. Will you concede that point?

I hope we can have a productive discussion here. There is much in your tone and intellect I appreciate. Let's "agree to disagree" where we must and treat each her respectfully when we can muster the spirit and the strength.

Flash, not to minimize your amazing research capabilities, but I just wonder if it is a good idea to be standing up for and getting behind Iskcon guru Bhavananda (Charles Bacis) against Chris Butler. As Henry has pointed out many times on this forum, Bhavananda is a known pedophile. Do we really want to be throwing our support to someone like that? Henry, I would be particularly interested to hear your viewpoint on this as well.

How can you have a normal discussion with someone if they refuse to respect your right to have a different opinion without flying off the handle and making inane accusations of conspiracy and whitewashing? Let us look at this:

Person A speaking with person B.

A. Look at this egomaniac making demands.
B. That is what egomaniacs do, look at these other egomaniacs.
A. ARE YOU THE DEVIL OR YOU MUST WORK FOR THE DEVIL, WHY WON'T YOU SAY YOU HATE MY GUY??!!!
B. WTF?

That is basically the encounter I had with Rama on Facebook. Now, I get that he had some issues growing up with the cult, hey guess what, your life was still better then most of the rest of the people in the world. Am I supposed to constantly treat you like a child who needs to be patted on the head and be told, good boy, well get those bad guys yet? Or else you will throw a tantrum and go on and blame the illuminati, the space lizards, or the cult of the big bad guru and his whiny emails to his followers?

That is clearly not possible, i.e. to rationally discuss these topics when the other person is clearly unable to see how irrational and offensive he is to people who simply don't share his EXTREME passion for Butler, I only find it interesting as a historical thing since I am interested in writing books on the Hare Krishna and it's history. As Rama knows since he liked my booked on Facebook, although I don't know if he read it.

And Radhika, where do you think that information about Bhaktivedanta came from? Me. I was the person who culled it all together and put it on my blog, then on my book, and many others have copied it and reposted it, now I have someone shoving it in my face as if they are educating me on it? So funny. LOL.

I have way more experience with Hare Krishna in general and ISKCON and Butler and his group and history then you realize. My viewpoint is of someone who tries to see a person's intentions along with the negative and positive repercussions of those intentions. For example, with the Hare Krishna schools, both Butler and ISKCON had good intentions, they really believed that their kids were super special for being born into their cults, they saw them as demigods who had taken birth to "purify the world" and bring in a "golden age." They saw it as their job to get them ready for that work. Good intentions - but deluded. They got that vision from Bhaktivedanta Swami who told them what I just told you - that "the demigods were lining up to take birth" in the movement.

The problem with the schools was that the people in the cults thought it was alright to follow the ancient tradition of the Gurukula, and they thought they knew what that really was, and they thought they had the people with the knowledge and skills to pull it off. They were wrong on all counts, and the schools turned out to be disasters. But, they learned by their mistakes. Butler's people don't have schools and haven't had any for a long time, ISKCON shut all their schools down for years and then restarted with professionals and doing the school thing properly.

I mean you keep going on about this stuff as if it never ended, as if how Butler was running his cult 20, 30, 40 years ago is still going on. They haven't even had any temples in many years, what to speak of schools, they don't and haven't given out their literature or even shown a presence outside of the Interent in many years. They are basically done as a cult and have been for years, but you wouldn't know that listening to you guys. All they are now is a group of people living their lives with a small handful aiding Butler live his. They have business and social connections due to their shared beliefs and history - but as far as how the cult used to be, I mean c'mon Rama, even you admitted to me I was right when I told you that the cult has been defunct as a cult for many years. Remember this:

[blockquote]Pam Ho 8/3, 9:25am

Back in the mid '90s I had a roommate on Maui who was a disciple, Mike was his name, he was the accountant for Down to Earth, he wasn't happy with the fam claiming they were exploiting him by not paying enough, he didn't seem much like a devotee to me, if he hadn't of told me I wouldn't have known.
I've been in Hawaii for a long time and so have been around them occasionally throughout the years, I knew people who worked for Down to Earth and so on, I've been to a few kirtans and feasts put on by the Gabbards and others. But really since the '80s or maybe early to mid '90s they stopped giving away their books and tapes and whatnot in their stores, and stopped advertising for kirtans. Occasionally I will see someone connected to them advertise for a kirtan, but it's in a new agey way, not overtly Krishna consciousness, the kind of stuff you see advertised by those doing kirtan outside of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. I think from what I can tell that outside of business connections that the "cult" no longer really exists in the sense it used to, i.e. with regular gatherings and regular membership. Now it seems it is much more about a social group with business and political ties, although a small handfull still seem to be devoted to taking care of Butler. Once you stop with public outreach like they did in the '90s, Gaudiya Vaishnavism in an organized fashion serves no purpose since it is really just about self development outside of proselytizing. If you stop with the proselytizing the organization as such loses its purpose and simply becomes a social group to whatever level of cohesion. Which is what it seems has happened with SOI.



August 3
Rama Ranson 8/3, 8:23pm

Yes, very accurate break down.
They all give so much money, all they do is throw it at a Wai Lana video.
That's not preaching and it's not even chanting.
The group does recruit through these new age yoga/kirtan places, Bhakti Yoga shack on Kauai, very strange ones in NZ called Ashram Yoga where they actually have a fake yoga guru, but I know it is CB followers, and they always do kirtan.
I guarantee every kirtan sings Nama Om Vishnu Padaya... Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa Iti Nami-ne, total Chris Butler worship.
They have literally switched to total denial and secrecy obscuring their guru, but all the members are very very hard core, they all chant a lot and they all follow Butler's orders.

The whole thing went underground when they stopped being open.
Most all the serious members are 2nd generation now, all born and raised in it, all inter marrying with each other to grow the membership, currently raising generation 3 and it is as intense as ever on the inside.
But they do not preach or openly spread chanting, they have all internalized Butler's paranoia and it has defined the group.
But they do all chant still, are very devoted but unfortunately it has been misplaced in Butler, he does not cultivate any independent thought in his followers. Just fear and handing him their power.[/blockquote]


I support Tulsi because I like her, I like what she has done in Congress in standing up for the Kurds against the adminstration, the only Democrat to stand up and speak out about the double dealing their recieved, i.e. supposedly America's allies, but the government is supporting Turkey and not stopping them from waging an all out war against the Kurds, who are the only cohesive force fighting and winning against ISIS. Tulsi is the only Democrat to goo on the new shows and criticize the administration for harming the Kurds and helping them. Plus, she is a Gaudiya Vaishnava, and I like that she is in a position of power since usually all we get is Christians, a few Jews, and a couple Muslims.

If all you guys will tolerate is bashing who you want to attack, and instantly yell conspiracy and become intolerant of any other view, then this is not an open forum, it becomes a tool for people with personal vendettas or political agendas, I hope it isn't that, but I know someone from previous encounters on Civil Beat that some Republicans see weakness in Tulsi's connection to her religion and have targeted that. They had the people had Civil Beat riled up for a few months, nut when they realized they were pissing off the Hindu community they stopped and no longer do so, they seem to have realized they were being played by political machinations.

Now you can jump and yell that - "Why won't the truth be spoken - Butler is sooo Bad, just say he is evil, just say it is all the devil, why won't you...argghh!!!"

Or you can be reasonable.

Please everyone, stay focused on the danger of cults. This old NY Times editorial below reminded me of Allan Tibby and his "plans" for villages in New Zealand.




There are also quotes about guns in the reporting of the Ti Leaf Scandal.

Flash