Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 24, 2011 11:22PM

Here is another issue: workplace safety.

Tired jet lagged people are more at risk of getting hurt or harming others when doing heavy labor.

And a responsible manager of a farm or outdoor project has to be aware of the dangers of dehydration and heat related illnesses. The rule is eat before you are hungry, drink before you are thirst, and what you drink should be water with some balanced electrolytes.

Not everyone is used to Hawaiian climate if coming from cooler drier parts of the world.
This was written for trail hikers but would apply to farmworkers too



Stay Together Hikers separated from their partners are more apt tomake a wrong turn or lose the established trail. Keeptrack of each other, and regroup periodically, especiallynear junctions or when the trail gets obscure. Monitoreveryone’s condition. Dehydration, sunstroke, hypother-mia, and fatigue can hit even experienced hikers


Watch the TimeHawai‘i does not have daylight savings time, and nightfalls quickly in the tropics. Getting a late start increasesthe possibility of getting caught in the dark. Know yourturnaround time and stick to it to allow enough time toreturn. If you’re caught by darkness, stay put unless youare very familiar with the trail and have a flashlight

Lonely Planet




Now, with all this in mind, lets have a look at the earlier portion of this visitors report on her stay at Dharma Farms. We can only hope hers was an unusual situation. But note how quickly she was put to work despite being jet lagged and tired.

You're a US Citizen, not a prison inmate, for petes sake. But.. note that in a separate environment, trusting someone elses authority, one can forget one is a volunteer and free to leave.


aloha, oy...
08.18.04 First impression after my first night in Hawaii: What the hell was I thinking, and how did I ever think that this was a good idea.

Second thought: I knew this would be hard (especially in the beginning), I wanted to throw myself right into it to get started, and I need to give it some more time to let myself get used to how different everything is before I jump to conclusions.

Third thought: I hope I'm strong enough to actually do this.


After 4 flights, I landed in Hilo at around 3:30 Hawaii time.

I was exhausted and worn out, but I was excited too. Flying in to the Islands was beautiful. After hours and hours of seeing nothing but open water out the window, it was incredible to come upon the Big Island under a canopy of clouds. It was gorgeous.

When I arrived at the airport, I quickly found my bag and began to look for Shankar, the owner of Dharma Farms who had promised to pick me up at the airport. He was nowhere to be found.

He had mentioned that he lived only five minutes away from the airport, so I figured he might just be taking his time to get there so he woulnd't have to wait for me.

At 4:00, I called his house. It rang and rang, and then I got a message "Memory Full" and a dial tone. Now I started to freak out a little bit.

I thought maybe I had the wrong number written down, so I even called my Mom and had her look up his number on the website, but it was the right number.

At around 4:15 I tried again and was able to reach him.

At 5:15, a pick-up truck pulls up in front of the airport. Shankar is riding int the front with two girls next to him, and two guys are hanging off the back. I get in the car and everyone is very friendly, and we start driving.

"Where are we going?" I ask.

"To work" Shankar replies.

In my head I'm thinking "Are you kidding me? I woke up at 3 AM Milwaukee time and it's now about 11:00 PM Milwaukee time, and I've only had 30 mintues of sleep on the plane, and now I have to work?!" but, of course, I didn't say anything.

I just went to work trying to convince myself that I was excited to see the farm and that I could handle a little work after being so tired.

We pull up to the warehouse where the noni is produced. We get out of the car and I'm hit by the smell of ripe noni fruit. It has got to be the single most disgusting smell to ever hit my nostrils: somehwere between rotting eggs, sour milk, and vomit. Shankar tells me to take my things into the warehouse and change into work clothes.

I leave my backpack (including my valuables, except for my wallet, which is on me) in the warehouse were he told me to put it, and I come outside. Everyone is waiting in the truck, and we go to another one of Shankar's properties.

On the way there, Shankar tells me that they've had an occasional problem with theives (of course, he tells me this AFTER I've left my stuff where he told me to, AFTER I get here - with no prior mention of that in our earlier communications).

We pull up to the second farm, referred to as Lava Land because part of it is covered with the solidified lava rock from an eruption about 15-20 years ago, and a girl called Nicole (who is very warm and seems to have adopted me already) shows me around and puts me to work watering plants.

We work for about 2 hours or so, which felt like the longest amount of time in my life. I am wandering around, trying to hold back tears because at this point, I am starting to feel disoriented, I'm seeing that I've idealized things quite a bit, and I'm starting to doubt my decision to come here. At the same time, I keep telling myself, almost like a mantra "I'm in Hawaii, this is Paradise, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity, I can handle this."

Nicole takes me over to the edge of Lava Land as it starts to get dark. She points out the glowing light in the distance, and it turns out that is the fresh lava flow off in the distance. It is beautiful.

The truck comes around and while I have been watering plants, the men were bundling up bags of noni, which are now stinking up the bed of the truck. I end up being one of the people who holds on to the back of the truck as we head off to another location for pickup of more bags of fruit.

Finally, we get back to the warehouse and all of us unload all of the noni bags onto platforms that have been set out. Each bag weighs 60 lbs and because each bag is filled with ripe, soft noni that has been sitting in a truck with hundreds of other bags of noni on top of it, there is noni juice and pulp seeping out of each bag onto all of us.

It is now 8:30 PM Hawaii time, and I realize I have been awake for approximately 24 hours because it is 3:30 AM in Milwaukee. I get my bag from the warehouse and everything is there, no worries. We hop back into the truck and go off to Shankar's house in the city.

It is explained to me that on Tuesdays and Thursdays, people usually stay at Shankar's house, but otherwise, they stay out on one of his properties in makeshift cabins (that are more like shantys) or in the old school bus.

Shankar's house is huge and there are several people living there and there are even a couple empty rooms. I was able to take a shower and I skipped dinner because I was so tired. I went to sleep at around 9, and after a few minutes trying to fight back tears because I am delieriously tired and having serious doubts about myself, I finally passed out.

I woke up today at 8:00 and I spoke to Nicole a bit. She lives out here, on Shankar's property, and she does extra work exchange to cover her rent here. I asked her what I am expected to do - stay at the farm or stay here (since there are extra rooms) - and she said I should talk to Shankar.

Part of me wants to see what it is like to stay at the farm, but part of me wants to wait a week or so until I am a little more used to being here to start staying at a place without the amenities that Shankar has here, and without anyone else around (that's right - if I stay int he school bus, only one other person is staying there and he's reportedly a loner, so I'm all by myself pretty much).

I'll let you know what happens, I have no idea what I'm doing or how I'm feeling, I keep trying to keep a good attitude but it's been difficult. I'll write again when I have more to say (hopefully better things!). The pictures below are of Kalapana (Lava Land) taken at another date.

adjusting to surroundings...

08.19.04 I realize that my initial impression of everything was definitely clouded by my extreme lack of sleep and by my sheer frustration that I was expected to work the second I got here.

Some have suggested that it might have been a test to let me know that I came here for work and that they don't want anyone who wants a free ride. Still, I think that before I leave here (whenever that will be), I might mention to Shankar that the way I was treated on my first day is a great way to scare off otherwise well intentioned volunteers.

(Corboy note: BS. Taking a sleep deprived jetlagged person and putting her to work, straight off the bat is not only inhumane, its a matter of workplace safety. Exhausted people on a farm are at risk of hurting themselves. )


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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 24, 2011 11:27PM

Noni Glut--2004

Note the hot climate. We can only hope that the people are taught the precautions needed to prevent dehydration and watch each other for signs of heat related illness.


Here at the house baby nonis are raised to be planted elsewhere. I overheard Gopal, Shankar's business partner, talking on the phone in the office and it turns out there has been an overproduction of the noni juice and they are trying to unload bottles on people as the demand decreses. I don't think this will mean that the work will be getting much slower though.

There are about eight to ten people living here at the house (or houses -- there are about three or four adjoining buildings on the property) and about 3 - 5 people living at various farming properties. People are apparently coming and going all of the time, but most people here have been here from about 4 - 7 months.

We cleaned out an upstairs room and so now I have my own room with a little piece of foam and a sheet on it as my bed, and a little blanket that I used to do yoga this morning. It's nice to have my own space and feel more settled in.

Tommy and Anton (a man from South Africa) made lunches for everyone and at around 2:30 we all climbed into the back of the truck to get to work. We headed out to another farm that I hadn't seen yet and we were all given machetes and set to work weeding the noni trees and pulling off excess leaves. The first hour or so was really hard on me and I felt confused about being here. I was drenced in sweat and the mosquitoes were eating me alive. I had an intense appreciation for all of the organic food that I have eaten, and I don't mind paying the extra price for it because I know now how much work goes into raising foods without the use of pesticides. By the time the truck came around, I felt great. I was exhausted from the work, but I felt good that I had worked so hard and done such a good job, and I was, of course, happy that it was over for the day. We drove back to the warehouse where we quiclky showered and got ready to go to a nearby ashram for dinner. I used an outdoor shower -- a square wooden platform that you stand on with two large wooden planks on each side, so as I was standing there, using a bowl to pour clean water on myself, I was able to look out over the trees and I see the ocean in the distance. I even used a gingerfruit plant that Matthew and Tommy showed me could be used as soap/shampoo.

We headed off to Guruda's ashram and as we approached we could hear devotional songs. I was familiar with kirtan (songs of devotion) from Austin, but i wasn't familiar with this intense Krshna worship. There was an altar in the front of the room and everyone was bowing down before pictures of Krshna intermittently in the singing. I prefer thinking of God as infinite consciousness and universal love intstad of picturing it in the form of an actual depicted god and worshipping it, so I felt out of my element a little bit. I was happy that the people there have found something that means so much to them and they take so seriously, but I don't see myself getting into it like that. It's just not what I'm looking for. I was really looking forward to a group meditation, but there wasn't one, which was disappointing. Still, the meal was great and I met some people and I was given my first lei there, which is now hanging up in my new room.


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Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 24, 2011 11:33PM

Note, to get a menu of earlier posts about the commerical projects linked to Butler, put
noni into the key words slot and select "all dates' and punch the button.


Someone already posted Mindy's online journal as a resource. Others report having been on dharma farms and glad to be out.

When you see the word picture of an idealistic young person grateful for a slab of foam and a blanket to sleep on, and contrast that with the Butler Krishnas and their commerical empire and political intriguing, its enough to make a person upchuck his or her breakfast.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Vera City ()
Date: September 25, 2011 08:23AM

My son is interested in going to Hawaii to work on Dharma Farm. Should I be concerned for his safety? I have heard about cult type activities. I would appreciate any information.

You should be very concerned about your son going to Hawaii to work on Dharma Farms.
Alan Yoza is a long time devotee of Chris Butler that goes back to his "Sai" days.
Historically, there is little regard for the physical nor mental health and safety of followers and volunteers.
You had better come with your own money and insurance.
Butler has a big hand in the Noni Farming business.
Take a close look at the alter where they worship and you will see photos of "he whose name can not be spoken of..."
This is another recruiting/ slave labor operation so typical of Butler francises. The one poster is correct in saying that it is not ISKCON.
Pick your poison.
They claim no allegience ("We are not sectarian") and say it is all volunteer participation. It is a deceptively decentralized, but a secret cult nonetheless.
Butler is still the puppet master.
For Alan Yoza to progress "spiritually" in this group he has needed to tithe a great deal of his life away, including donating a share of profits for the upkeep and care of his guru (at the expense of new recruits). It is worse than slavery because it claims to give people something spiritual in exchange. It uses the myths of paradise and liberation to capture a young person's heart and mind.
The diary of the Dharma Farm volunteer sounds like many accounts of people who lived in the infamous "WAREHOUSE".
Take the warnings seriously. Try to get your son to read some of the articles on this website on mind control, etc.
There is no free ride. If he is interested in organic farming, there are other programs that don't promote a cult. There is the Peace Corp and many other reputable volunteer organizations. Have him do more research.

Good luck.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 25, 2011 10:23PM

Green, Sustainable, Permaculture Organic Farming --Do Your Background Research Before You Pack Your Bags

And best of all those other programs for organic farming will, if you ask specific questions, be clear about workplace safety, former workers will speak well of them, even years later.

Remember, donated labor is a valuable commodity--more valuable than many people can imagine. Very, very few have the character, social skills, physical fitness, and leisure time needed to take time out and volunteer to work outdoors on a farm.

Legions of projects want you. Some will be up front about their beliefs, but regrettably, others will not be candid.

These days 'green' 'sustainable' 'organic' and 'permaculture' are not just popular terms--they are being used by persons in marketing. The public is concerned and these concerns and anxieties attract swarms of opportunists, eager for donated labor--which as noted above is tremendously valuable.

Donated labor is not taxable wealth, but generates wealth. And if the project is a non profit, and pays no tax, that donated labor is all the more valuable.

We are now discussing one such situation--and you can see the size of this thread.

A small tip: If you or anyone you care about wants to learn about organic and sustainable farming or permaculture, and you want only to be part of projects that have zero religious or ideological agendas, background research is, regrettably, now necessary.

For example, many are now equating permaculture and other sustainable projects with biodynamic farming.

Biodynamic farming is based on the religious teachings of Anthroposophy, created by Rudolf Steiner, who taught it was quite all right to conceal the actual religious teachings from outsiders--that it was good for them to be exposed without their knowledge. This has lead many parents to be quite angry when they entrust their children to Steiner's Waldorf schools only later to find that the schools are run according to a very dotty and secretive religion that most parents would not want to expose their children too.

The same is true of Biodynamic farming, which many equate with permaculture but that is not the same at all.

Genuine science is based on use of hypotheses that can be proven false.

Thats what distinguishes permaculture from biodynamic farming which is based on assertions which cannot be proven false.

Pseudoscience is based on assertions that cannot be proven wrong. Thus assertions than cannot be proven wrong, pile up, like dust bunnies in dark corners.

And for maintaining authoritarian and unquestionable power, a system based on assertions that cannot be proven false is the way to go.

Authoritirian persons and sysetms dislike genuine science precisely because science is based on hypotheses that can, at a later time be proven wrong, when enough new information becomes available. The catholic church based its authority on the old earth centered solar system and thus felt threatened when other findings, including Galileo's telecope, demonstrated the existence of heavenly bodies never mentioned in the ancient texts on which the church based its authority.

So one way to dodge it is do as Steiner did--(or what the Krishnas do)call genuine science 'materialism' and call his own authoriarian/non-disrprovable stance 'Spiritual Science.'

(scientifically posited hypotheses can be dis-proved. Pseudo scientific assertions cannot be dis-proved)

Authoritarian persons and social systems dislike genuine science, because science can utter no absolutes--it can only give answers in terms of likelihoods, probablities, which do not appeal to persons who want black and white, absolute assertions.

So if you and or anyone you care about want to do organic farming or get instruction that has NO tie to religion of any kind, run your searches carefull and if you want to study permaculture, run your searches on google to include permaculture but eliminate
Steiner, Waldorf Biodynamics and Anthrosophy. Put organic farming or permaculture or sustainability in your include slot.

Put the latter 4 terms in the 'exclude' slot.



So all you who have limited time and energy and who want to make this world a better place--your energy and attention are precious. Many want your attention and energy as well as your money.

They think they know better than you do what is good for you.

Are you aware that Permaculture and Biodynamics are different methods, and not the same at all?


Well intentioned persons may be misled to push Biodynamics as Permaculture because they have not been told the full truth about the difference between the two methods.

It is neither kind nor respectful to involve sincere adults in a pattern of disinformation

Do background research about a project and its actual ideology and the backgrounds of its leaders before you get involved.

It is a sad truth that some sustainablity projects are run by persons who will not tell you what the actual ideology of that project is--and you might be quite shocked if you were to be told what it is.

Organic and or sustainable farming projects based on scientific methods backed up by years of discussion and publication in academic journals are the best choice, especially for a young person. What he or she learns will be transferable to a multitude of ventures later on. If you learn some method based on a religion, you can only function in communities that share that belief and your future options will be limited. Your talents may be thwarted. When you are 18, you want internships and volunteer opportunites that will open a mulitude of doors. You may think you are sick and tired of school, but find out you want to go and do graduate level study. If you only get taught farming methods based on Krishna or Rudolf Steiner, you may have trouble getting into a good program. If you do get in, you will have a lot of things to unlearn.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: just-googling ()
Date: September 25, 2011 11:00PM

EXPLOIT ~ To make unethical use of for one's own profit ~ Webster's New World Dictionary.

The philosophy of these cult members involves a lot of talk about CONSCIOUSNESS ... but they fail to realize that they may have developed the consciousness of exploitation in the name of g0d or their spiritual master or whatever. If indeed the Earth is going through a dimensional shift, it is my humble opinion that this type of exploitation-consciousness will become more and more visible for all to see ... kind of like the Emperor who had no clothes ... whether it is cult leaders who live extravagant lifestyles, crooked politicians and government officials, over-paid predatory professionals such as lawyers, greedy Wall Street crooks, etc...

And if indeed there is any kind of judgment day, it is my humble opinion that this type of exploitation-greed consciousness will be more of a determining factor than, say, for example, how much sexual libido one was born with, or the type of herbs one chooses to use for medicinal or recreational use (labeled by these cult members as illicit sex and intoxication) ... no, rather, how we treat other living entities, and specifically other human beings, may be the determining factor that could keep us locked in the third dimension rather than ascending to a higher dimensional reality ... Again, just my humble opinion regarding the belief systems of this cult compared to other New Age ideas.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 26, 2011 10:58AM

Jesus talked more about abuse of money and power than he ever did about sex.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: September 27, 2011 03:03PM

To all participants of this thread and to the administrators of this site:

The real info can be found in Kailua, Oahu. As is well known already from those who have read on here, the main headquarters of the Butler cult is in Kailua. What has not been revealed is the code names given to certain areas/subjects/people/connections:

1. The members refer to their headquarters in Hawaii as Site. Members of the cult worldwide recognize this pseudonym as it means the current residence of Butler.

2. The members meet on Waimanalo beach and Bellows air-force beach for their code named "picnics". The members gather to worship Butler on weekends, location and time determined either the day before or the day of in order to prevent information leaking out. Butler is a extreme conspiracy theorist(he believes there are assassins out to kill him) and will not always show to these gatherings. But, weather and crowds permitting he will show up for a couple hours to lecture about servitude and to throw raisins to his ecstatic followers. He prides himself on his throwing abilities, having played some baseball as a youth in Hawaii.

3. Butlers step children and selected followers train in Wu-Shu (chinese dance martial art) at Kailua beach park. Butler sometimes strolls by to chat and have respects paid to him. Be wary if you approach them, Butlers step son(a tall attractive asian-american male whose name coincidentally is Siddha, which is Butlers spiritual name too) is known to be extremely hot-headed and can become physically violent.

4.1 Some members of the cult are willing to speak as long as you don't come across as a reporter, the danger of being exposed as a snitch to Butler is too great of a risk: physical/legal threats, abandonment by family or banishment from island. While banishment sounds like sensationalism, most of the cult members income come from a network of low-level businesses run by senior members of Butler's cult. Therefore if the Butler finds a member offensive to him, his senior member will fire the offender and given the near poverty level of the person + the expense of living in hawaii, he/she would be forced to leave. This has happened before to people found offensive, multiple times.

4.2 Some younger members are willing to talk, such as an very handsome australian male code-named "Vishnu das". He is very into mountain biking, tricks and trails. Another member who might expose info is code-named "Balaram Bali das", his father is one of the head managers of Down To Earth food chain.

5.1 Some info on Butler himself: Butler has lived most of his life on oahu, growing up on the north shore. In his mid teens, he fell in love with a local girl who broke his heart, sadly he didn't even make love to her before it ended. After that experience traumatized him heavily, he swore off women and claimed to practice a life of celibacy. This is hard to believe as he was a yogi in the forest of Kauai getting massaged by males and females every night and now to this day is married and lives with an asian yoga teacher, code-named "Vaishnava Dasi". Butler began searching out Kundalini yoga and opened an ashram on Kauai, where he attracted most of his now senior members(code-named "disciples").

5.2Butler discovered ISKCON, and brought his followers to surrender to ISKCON's guru, AC bhaktivedanta swami. Once AC bhaktivedanta died in the mid 1970's, Butler decided he was enlightened and started initiating disciples in his own lineage. He fed his new found disciples stories of AC bhaktivedanta's great love for Butler and how AC considered butler to be a "pure lover of krsna(god)". Butler enlisted Katyayani dasi, his longtime friend, in helping his mission but things soon died out in a power struggle, which culminated recently in a direct command from Butler to his members "not to in any way come into contact or seek out contact with katyayani dasi or her students/disciples".

5.3 Since the early 1980's Butler has claimed to have extreme environmental illnesses that could kill him, yet it seems improbable as he lived in india for at least 6 months and in the moldy/mildew forests of Kauai. Furthermore, a conversation with a previous doctor who is an ex-cult member has diagnosed Butler's illnesses to be completely somatic and has further alluded that Butler appears to be a high-functioning schizophrenic/sociopath.

5.4 Butler own's mansions and property internationally, purchased through the profits of his devotees "devotional service". He and his family(daughters husbands and grandkids) reside between his 3 homes in Lanikai, each multi-million dollar properties. This is only a minute look into the magnitude of which he exploits his followers, who live in garages and out of cars. Some of the "serious students"(defined as those who are willing to devote their lives to Butler) live in tents in members yards.

6.1 Last info for this post: The health clearance system for those who live on "Site"(Oahu). Members are divided into groups labeled: A, B and C. Members who are C's are allowed to go into public places without mask's on, basically this is the bottom of their caste system. C's are allowed to hold jobs in which they interact with the public; they can work at Down To Earth. There are incubation periods in order to move up classes and these periods can range from a week to 3 months.

6.2 B members are restricted to only going into public places out of necessity: shopping for groceries, thrift stores, food drives or Shopping for A's. Members who are labeled B's have to wear surgical masks in public places, as well as disinfecting everything when they return home: wash clothes, shower, sanitize bags and cars/mode of transport. If you have ever shopped in Kailua you will definitely have encountered B's before. If a B member comes within 30 ft of a C member, they are demoted to C class.

6.3 Class A members are not allowed any public interactions and are hindered from coming within a 50 ft radius of a member who is C class. Class A members typically are engaged in personal servitude to Butler: His cooks, med-large private security(mostly young, impressionable males), his family, secretary and certain administrators for his various "projects". If an A member gets sick, they are demoted to a C: if a A member comes within 50 ft of a C, they become a C class member.

6.4 Butler's class system is reminiscent of a totalitarian pseudo-capitalist regime: The majority of his followers are C's, while their B class(think middle class) is a small margin. Think 150 C members, 30 B members and perhaps 20 A members. The A members have all living expenses paid for, work 6 hrs a day and most live close or on the beach in private residences paid for by Butler. While anyone can theoretically can become an A class member through making it through the incubation period, they have to be first approved and cleared to serve Butler, making the upper echelon very hard to reach.

It is a lot of information but hopefully it sheds light on what is going on. I have taken great pains to find this info and and slowly condensing everything I have learned: I have information on a large number of their organized locations: local, national and international. I also have a large amount of info on senior members and "disciples" as well as information on the scandalous dealing(s) between Mike Gabbard and his congress race against Congressman Ed Case. I Highly recommend observing their weekend "picnics" at the beach's listed: just be sure to maintain a low profile as they are very paranoid.

It is time that Chris Butler AKA Jagad Guru Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa Prabhupad comes into the light.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: September 28, 2011 02:32AM

Most excellent post, Kailua! You have summed it up nicely especially this item: " Furthermore, a conversation with a previous doctor who is an ex-cult member has diagnosed Butler's illnesses to be completely somatic and has further alluded that Butler appears to be a high-functioning schizophrenic/sociopath. " From what I saw during my time among them I have to concur with this assesment.

For Fancy, you were lucky that you were informed by your son that he was interested in going to the Dharma Farm. Some parents lost their sons and daughters to this cult long ago. You did well to investigate and please, take the time to read this thread. Everyone should know about this cult and learn the truth behind the lies. Kailua left out one possible reason for his insanity: drugs, lots of them early on in his youth.
Thanks to Butler, this cult had many victims.

As with any seed that is planted, the results will depend upon the time, commitment and dedication to said "seed".
The children of the devotees were neglected and or hurt by this group, there can be little doubt of that.
If the seed is neglected, what do you suppose the harvest will yield? The children born in the 80's and to some extent part of
the early 90's are now living their own lives and are raising their own children. You better believe they will remember all those
times when Butler was more important to their parents (Rama comes to mind) than the care and nurturing that a child deserves. They will remember that they were left with neighbors, other devotees, a "home" in Sacramento, a house (or more accurate - a trailer) in Cottonwood, a place in Austin, or a group home in New Zealand or the Gold Coast in Australia. They were subjected to neglect, indifference, some of them abuse, some never survived, and others did "spin out". Those that made it out in more or less one piece, either made it into school or got a job in the secular world. They are legal aides, college students, photographers, musicians, solar energy installers, politicians ( !!- with a hidden agenda- no doubt) business men/women and now parents themselves. When questioned they will probably demur when it comes to doing actual service for Butler. No one really wants to be "on site". They know what happens there.
I know those old "core group" parents are probably waiting for their offspring to come to them and say, " Yes I want to do personal service, or yes I want to participate in one of the projects, but I feel that most of them try and stay as far away as possible, even though the parents do not want to aknowledge this.
Since no one invested any effort into their children, and education was put on the bottom rung, I knew there would be very few to continue the work in the various projects or businesses catering to keeping Butler in the luxe lifestyle he demands. Those old fanatical parents are in their late 50's & 60's now; they are probably waiting for children that may never come back to help out. What child would want to, considering what they went thru.
It was most certainly NOT a friendly, loving & compassionate environment for many of the kids. I would venture to say that the fanaticism has probably weakened in that generation, they are probably still respectful and they chant and maintain a somewhat Vedic lifestyle, but it looks like they prefer their distance from the Butler-centric crowd.
Is Butler even sane, for that matter? Read this forum thread- the truth is written out for anyone who cares to read it.
It is said that if you beleive something long enough you will create your own reality. In Butler's world he has to be protected from everyone and everything. It is a very paranoid and stealthy organization and it is absolutely NOT a non-profit organization. Everything is done with one recipient in mind- Butler. Whatever federal tax staus this group holds, it should be investigated. They are probably still committing state and federal fraud on some level or other, there was so much of that in years past. According to Kailua, the class A members are being paid for the service to Butler, however you must realize that they are also probably collecting some sort of aid from the federal or state governments. How many of them are on the welfare rolls, still collecting food stamps and medical aid, and Federal Disability payments? A recent report just stated that the Federal disability payment program will run out in about 2-3 years.
When people commit fraud, this is what happens; everyone else has to pay the price. Its time for a legal investigation into this group.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 28, 2011 07:07AM

Before volunteering or donating, always, always fact check the history of the group or leader.

You want to give to those live in need, not to those who live in greed.

Butler sounds like a big, greedy child in an adult body who monopolized the affection and energy in the group, with nothing left over for the biological children of the devotees who entrusted themselves to Butler.

As time passes, more and more of these neglected children have grown to adulthood, found their voices and some
have chosen to bear witness.

Those who have fled from polygamist groups. Polygamist groups often parasitize the local welfare systems. It is time that the feds and state authorities look into this. Its not fair for ordinary tax paying citizens to subsidize the selfish lives of domineering and juvenile men who seek immortality by knocking up as many ladies as possible.

More accounts:

My Life in Orange--written by a boy whose mother emotionally abandoned him to follow Rajneesh

The Fishes Come Home to Roost--from a woman taken as a child to India by parents who doted on Meher Baba and who had to cope with ashram ninnies and nasy nuns at a Catholic school, while her parents floated around


First hand testimony on this board by a woman whose mother was in Gurdjieff cult stuff and later co-led a spin off of her own:


A contributor named Jupiter wrote of the hardships of growing up inside Subud, a culty and elitist set up. Worst of call when Jupiter began to write here and elsewhere to tell her truth as she had lived through it, she was hassled by a guy who kept putting her down for dissing Subud. Total pain in the ass. Even after she got out, she was dealing with all this.


(Werner Erhard investigated Subud when sampling various methods of toying with peoples moods and minds--yuck)

Some cults adopt kids


and the Children of God--heavy impact on children born into that group


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