Hey Kailua_no more SIF, most excellent post. I left the cult some twenty years ago. Things were starting to get absolutely absurd back then. I cans see things have degenerated even more now. I look forward to reading more from you to find out just how crazy it has gotten. Thanks so much for your post. You are not alone as there are more of us out here than you think even if we don't always chime in. Keep up the good work. Mr. Butler does indeed need to come out into the light.

FEAR ~ Anxiety caused by real or possible danger ~ Webster's New World Dictionary.

These cult members seem to be entrenched in a dimension of fear and anxiety ... fear of germs, fear of disease, fear of the wrath of their so-called guru, and ultimately fear of g0d. From microbes to God ... and everything in between. I have heard it said that FEAR is the opposite of LOVE ... It is interesting to see how a religion that teaches love for God has evolved into a cult that cultivates nothing but fear and anxiety...

Does Mr. Butler believe that his God-given immune system is shot, or what? ... A case of Acquired Immunity Deficiency Syndrome, maybe? I wonder if just meditating on the homosexual scourge has given him a case of AIDS???

Thanks, Kailua-no more SIF, for updating this forum on the state of the cult ... It's unbelievable that about 200 people have been sucked into his crazy reality ... and his insane hierarchical system of A's, B's and C's ...

A - ALPHA males and females
B - BETTER than the cast below them
C- Lowly COMMONERS who are just too filthy and dirty to be in the presence of g0d's one and only rep on this planet.

A case of Paranoid Schizophrenia indeed. It would indeed be too much of a reality shift from accepting this person as g0d's representative to perceiving him as a mentally ill personality.

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Thanks, Kailua-no more SIF, for updating this forum on the state of the cult ... It's unbelievable that about 200 people have been sucked into his crazy reality ... and his insane hierarchical system of A's, B's and C's ...

Friends, its easy to see what happened.

Go and re read the material on Philip Zimbardo's famous/infamous Stanford Prison Experiment.

[www.prisonexp.org]

The thing is this--it doenst have to be a prison.

All you need is an isolated hunk of real estate.

And, the more beautiful the property is, the better. People are more trustful in lovely surroundings. Or if the surroundings are advertised as being in the service of a Noble Cause.

Its the isolation and assignment to social roles and lack of outside social input that add up to create a toxic environment.

Zimbardo had a group of university undergraduates. They were randomly assigned to the roles of either prison guard or prison inmate.

Randomly assigned.

Over time, those who played the prison inmate roles forgot that they had been told at outside this was an experiment, not reality, that they could leave at any time.

They forgot this. Over time, these inmates become more and more submissive to those role playing the guards.

And over time, the guards, randomly assigned to this role, become yet more brutal toward the inmates.

Both the guards and inmates become lost in their roles.

And...it took a visit from an outsider--one of Zimbardo's graduate students--to put an end to the deteriorating situation.

This graduate student was so horrified at the degradation and deterioration in the situation that she insisted to Zimbardo that the situation had to be stopped, right then and there.

Fortunately, Zimbardo chose to listen to her.

So thats a key ingredient in the toxic brew--no social input, someone who is in the power role for years, someone who has sought that role, rather than being randomly assigned to it.

And social isolation.

Consider the set up

Hawaii. The name alone conjures up images of beauty, relaxation. Its also quite a few time zones away from where many people live. The girl who wrote that journal describing conditions on the noni plantation--she was from Michigan and noted that she had flown 4 time zones to reach Hawaii.

So, right away, you're loopy. Two, you made all this effort to travel to Hawaii in service of a good cause. So there is a big investment of time and money and effort, right there. If you dare imagine that the project is unworthy of your effort after you have arrived, you face a painful set of thoughts and emotions that social psychologists call COGNITIVE DISSONANCE. Note how the girl kept telling herself that she needed to make allowances. The manager of the farm was late picking her up at the airport, put this tired young person to work the instant they arrive at the farm, told her to ditch her packpack and only later mentioned the possiblity of theft. She was angry at first, then told herself,

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adjusting to surroundings...
08.19.04 I realize that my initial impression of everything was definitely clouded by my extreme lack of sleep and by my sheer frustration that I was expected to work the second I got here.

Some have suggested that it might have been a test to let me know that I came here for work and that they don't want anyone who wants a free ride. Still, I think that before I leave here (whenever that will be), I might mention to Shankar that the way I was treated on my first day is a great way to scare off otherwise well intentioned volunteers.

This decent person was trying to avoid cognitive dissonance defined as

"the feeling of discomfort that results from holding two conflicting beliefs. "

[forum.culteducation.com]

Once you arrive on Hawaii, you then go to further areas, on road systems you know nothing about, names are unfamiliar, even darkness falls faster and much earlier than you are used to.

So, its quite a few layers of social isolation.

And on Hawaii, your spending power is decreased. Its an island, everything has to be shipped in. If you leave or get ejected from the cocooned environment of SIF, you're on your own.

Powerful stuff

And with our intelligence, we are social creatures. Anyone who would NOT be affected by the social undertow would have to be

*Someone with extensive training in social psychology and who knows in advance the full facts about this organization and possesses means to get out immediately and has friends on call to arrive and perform an 'extraction'

*Someone who has been through training programs designed to inculcate skills
needed to identify, evade and resist indoctrination. To get that sort of training, you have to join the armed forces--and then make the cut for entry into and completion of training as a fighter pilot or Special Operations.

*Someone who cares so little about social cues that he or she is too disturbed to be capable of functioning in any social situation.

Corboy that was an excellent analysis. Very evocative imagery.

On the topic of disorientating new recruits there's also a new culture, an unfamiliar language (sanskrit, Chris Butler speak), a new and strange eastern religion. It's a fascinating and highly confusing environment. Being from a western country it's all completely out of your world.

It's difficult for most people to engage in the religious discussion because it's all new concepts and new logic. Especially with a young impressionable person all they can do is nod and agree. I've seen this happen with middle aged adults and elderly people. Even when other religious groups come prostelysizing they are lost for words. This is not at all a fair and equal discussion. They couldn't ever have a rational debate with a non-cult member (code name: demons).

When the girl at Dharma Farms talks about the criticising of all other religious paths or society (except worshipping Krishna with them) that's a very common theme. They say "This is what other people do, and this is what we do. Don't you agree we are so wonderful?" They present such idealistic values with pure motives which can be very seductive. A person can quickly become lost in the belief that this is the one true way to save themselves.

Luring young impressionable minds into an isolated and disorientating trap, in the middle of nowhere, is creepy stuff. Right off the boat they are slaving for the cult for free. It's despicable.

So thank you for you post. It was very interesting.

I wanted to expand a little on the above post:

Butler has almost four decades experience of guiding and mentoring cult political candidates. His speaking lectures and books are actually more like political speeches and propanganda. While this is not professional diagnosis, he also has an almost borderline hyper-aware theory of mind, where he is able to see the proverbial splinter in his neighbours eye somewhat better than most people. So his philosophy has this exceptional moral and ethical idealism that he holds his followers, society and other religions to. Nobody could ever reasonably live up to this, least of all himself. A lot of his philosphy is intellectually lazy and makes wild claims that show very little research or understanding. Although personality-wise he can be very persuasive and make up for this shortcoming.

When a disciple is recruiting someone again it is a very political approach. They smile with a slight condescension and appear highly confident. They make a lot of direct eye contact and speak with a tempered tone. Their demeanor is down to earth and friendly. Much like a politician. Now if you could imagine an influential politician/speaker, holding excessively idealistic political, social, personal, religious, moral and ethical views and sat them in a room, for hours, weeks to months with an impressionable individual who is not a trained and educated political opponent. The young student is not prepared at all to discuss, or even make counterarguments against, this barrage of questions and debate aiming to break down their entire view of the world as they understand it. It's a real David and Goliath attack on their consciousness and personal identity.

During these mind opening/numbing sessions they introduce more and more fanatical ideas such as Jesus' declaration he was here to not bring peace but the sword. To turn child against parent. This is translated as the student's parents and friends do not truly love them, in the sense of an awareness of their etermal spiritual identity, but rather is an illusion of love based on their material attachments. This false identification a parent has is especially "dangerous" for a new recruit. Followed by a social isolation and a recreation of their identity as a cult member.

It is all very insidious. Members who could agree with anything, or even most, of what I have just said would feel completely justified as it is a means to freeing recruits from the wheel of birth and death. Any and all bars are held because even a potentially psychologically damaging recruitment is still a success. Tearing someone away from all their material attachments in their view is a painful and traumatic experience, but a necessary one. Justified by the absolute truth God, and Chris Butler, Himself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2011 05:26PM by Jay Cruise.

Arguing at others vs arguing with others.

Arguing at other persons means treating others not as persons but as walls to be battered down and the materials incorporated into ones own Mighty Fortress

One feels battered and drained and tired. If one stays in the argument too long, there is a risk of just caving in to the aggressor to make the situation quiet down and get some relief. You are so busy seeking relief thorugh concession you dont realize you're disowing your own truth.

Arguing with others persons means seeing those persons as other persons and respecting their otherness. This is a relationship even if there is friction and one doesnt feel dead and drained inside, as a result of the encounter.

Here is an item to add to Jay Cruise's description of this politcal/persuasive process.

Many persons who become skillful at this kind of politized persuasion are persons who are energized by disagreement and conflict.

Most of us are not like this. We get tired as disagreement and conflict drag out and drag on.

We get more and more weary and perhaps to avoid embarassment/cognitive dissonance we cave in and agree, or appear to agree and convince ourselves that its just a small concession. We do not want to admit that we were 'nagged' into submission by someone who is energized by conflict and even more energized by making conquests by extracting concessions.

If we do this again and yet again, it takes a toll.

Once we concede, we may try to avoid embarassment (and cognitive dissonance) by deciding there isnt such a difference between what the more aggressive person says and our own viewpoints.

Heres another analysis of this by Len Oakes

[forum.culteducation.com]

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Get, and read Prophetic Charisma 1997 Syracuse University Press by Len Oakes. Oakes is a research psychologist/clinician and after being in a commune led by a charismatic leader, he left, and decided to research how people become charismatic leaders.

Oakes was able to interview 20 charismatic leaders* and found amazing similarities in their life trajectories. All had difficulty with ordinary intimacy with peers, and compensated by becoming avid students of social manipulation/communication. Quite a few were in previous careers as entertainers, musicians, teachers, and in some cases, business.

(Several other leaders refused to expose themselves to scrutiny and declined to participate in Oakes study. One, who never met Oakes in person, presumed to tell LO that his life was meaningless)

All were risk takers, and learned how to stay on top of all that went on in their groups. They could talk their way out of awkward situations and learned how to identify even the slightest bit of hesitation in an adversary or potential recruit and then, throw that person off balance.

'A common manipulative strategy used by leaders in this study was an argumentative style that was calculated to subtly shift the ground of any discussion from whatever matter was being talked about toward some area of an opponents personal insecurity. In this technique, the leader observed the process of an opponent's conversation and identified some point of hesitency and uncertainy. This was not always a flaw of logic or error of fact; the conversation may have been on some topic about which the leader would have known little and been unable to detect such a mistake.

Rather, it was more likely to be some personal unsureness on the part of the opponent, that the leader's exquisite social perception targeted.

'

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...Typically what was said (by the leader) was an observation that the opponent seemed to be "a bit steamed up about this" or was "finding it hard to say what this is all about."

In this way, the opponent was invited, sympathetically and seductively, to expand upon the very point of weakness.

'Or the leader claimed not to understand what was meant at a particular point, perhaps even saying that the opponent was not making sense.

(Corboy. The only language that makes sense to these aggressors is agreement/submission to their point of view. Anything different will not make sense to them its just a signal to keep arguing at you until you cave in. And, remember, many of these persons are energized by this process of arguing at others.

'This usually lead to a further exposure*, and then another, until the opponent stumbled over his words and began to look uncomfortable. At thsi point a well time dismissive glance from the leader was all that was needed to intimidate, the other person being glad to have the subject changed to how he might redeem his soul or however...'

*('further exposure'...that is to say the targeted person responded by self disclosing personal information that could then be used to further advantage by the aggressor)+
(Oakes, pp 89-90)

Somber.

Y'know, this is something to ponder. For the past 4 to 5 decades we have been living in an age of increased self disclosure, especially those of us who have been involved with sensitivity training, encounter groups, therapy, recovery work. We share intimate details about our lives. People are expected to reveal stuff about themselves that , decades ago, society would have considered excessively personal and off limits for discussion between strangers.

This is well and good if done in boundaried spaces in which all parties behave honorably and never misuse this so as to throw someone off balance for their own gain.

But some persons have learned methods by which to elicit self disclosure from targeted persons--persons who are 'avid students of social skills'--avid, but not kind, ethical, or fairminded.


Two excerpts from Oakes book are here:

[www.sustainedaction.org]

[www.sustainedaction.org]

Reading the Oakes quote I had a flashback, anxiety attack, regression, anxiety attack. Mortal fear of "demon" literature. It's been a few years since I deprogrammed. I think I should buy that book.

I love your post. It's line for line accurate. Butler would almost entirely agree. Only he puts a different spin on it. With a less "harmful" more "guru's duty" connotation. What a headfuck.

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corboy
Arguing at other persons means treating others not as persons but as walls to be battered down and the materials incorporated into ones own Mighty Fortress

[/quote]

This is fundamental Science of Identity Foundation. A person's Identity is said to be entirely false. Everybody depersonalizes themselves and others. Breaking someone's ego down is helping them. Rather than a personality problem with Butler.

I've only ever seen one person make a contradictory statement to Butler. It was an offhanded reflex remark about something inconsequential. Butler went wide eyed and asked "Are you arguing with me?" Out of all the lectures I've been to or heard that was the only time.

To not accept his omniscience is demonic and punishable with lifetimes of suffering.

There is no way to verbally defend one's ego. If a disciple or other member hears Butler say their name a look of utter terror comes over their face. If someone asks a question he attacks the person as well as the idea. Even someone innocently minding their own business is in danger of retribution.

He terrorizes his followers.

Everything else you said correlates to Butler's behavior.

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quotesman
Hey Kailua_no more SIF, most excellent post. I left the cult some twenty years ago. Things were starting to get absolutely absurd back then. I cans see things have degenerated even more now. I look forward to reading more from you to find out just how crazy it has gotten. Thanks so much for your post. You are not alone as there are more of us out here than you think even if we don't always chime in. Keep up the good work. Mr. Butler does indeed need to come out into the light.

Hey quotesman,
Nice to see you back. Would you please re-post the famous Butler quotes again.

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just-googling
I have heard it said that FEAR is the opposite of LOVE ... It is interesting to see how a religion that teaches love for God has evolved into a cult that cultivates nothing but fear and anxiety...

... and his insane hierarchical system of A's, B's and C's ...

A - ALPHA males and females
B - BETTER than the cast below them
C- Lowly COMMONERS who are just too filthy and dirty to be in the presence of g0d's one and only rep on this planet.

LOL! The system always existed and many lived it, are still living it, it just wasn't called A, B, or C. You knew where you stood.
One exer recently shared with me how he got propelled from day one into the inner circle due to the fact that he was sent to Hawaii to open a record store. It was funded by drug dealers from southern California. The merit was not on his spiritual advancement, but his ability to support Butler and propel his record (which was in pre-production). Of course the rationale was to give the world Krisman. He remembers a "grade C" follower commenting on how she had been working her ass off for years and "this guy flies into Kauai and overnight it's all just peachy". Well, the deal fell through and no record store was opened. The guy liked women too much and quickly ended up on the D list. He's doing very well today. Escaped in the 70's. Unfortunately, he lost a wife and kids to the cult. Like so many, had to rebuild a life all over again.

We are all waiting here for the cult kid's stories like "My Life In Orange".
Hey Googling, what do you think it would be called?

"Trapped in the Family Guru's Mirror"
"Death by Effulgence"
"Holy Collatoral Damage"

Tuco says, "Hi"