Ok, I am torn between wanting to hold some of you in my arms for the harm you have, and laughing as I know a lot of these people and have not seen any of what you describe. However that may be because I never went active. I have pretty much thought Kalindi was the voice of God after she zotted me with that intense energy she has. However many of the "higher ups" told me that my focus should be on attaining my liberation and to not pay any attention to Kalindi. That made sense to me and I don't.

I do get the feeling that some of you were in the group during the no-exclusivity era when the point was to open our hearts to everyone instead of dedicating to just a one or two. I know that there was a lot of sexual activity that happened among people and it sounds like some of you felt pressured to do things you didn't want to. All I know is I told them that I had no interest in that bed bouncing and would be emotinally messed up for years if I had to participate. So they told me to follow my heart and not do it. However it sounds like you may have been in a different situation, or someone used the teaching to get you to act as you didn't want to. I feel sorrow for you and wish I could help you relieve your pain. And again granted I didn't go active so I wasn't under the thumb of any of the leaders.

I have been threatened with being tossed out of the group because I cut loose at the lady one time in a letter and that threat caused me a great deal of mental and emotional anquish. However once i worked my way through why I attacked her and saw I had a lot of hostility towards my mom that I projected at her, I released that and the connection I had towards her. I even wrote her that I no longer cared about her. Not in a negative way or insultive way, just that she was no longer of any real importance in my spiritual seeking, I was mostly focused on God. She sent me a response in which she congratulated me on my personal insight, that I had managed to get my focus off of her and get it on God, and that I had the strength to not feel the need to conform to the beliefs of people in the group. Granted this could be a really subtle form of mind control being used on me, but at no point was I told I would go to hell or I was bad. Well the lawyer did say I was wrong to write such a pointed letter, but other than that they have had little trouble with my asking questions, and trust me I ask some real interesting ones. Now days I go to their meditations quite often and their public dances. If you are in San Diego you are invited to come dance if you want. It is free.

I can completely see that people feel manipulated in the group, as we are in any group, as we are when we turn on the television, as we are when raised by our parents. There is an emotinal need to belong and a fear of retribution if we go against the group. But in my experience with them they want you to get over that and choose from maturity to either be in or leave. I could say that Kendra and Karen and Lara are all manipulated, but they don't think they are so who am I to say? I have asked Lara directly in email if she is sure she is operating out of free choice or out of fear or manipulation and she insists it is free choice.

The main thing about Miracle of Love is you have to understand this is not about healing your emotions or issues or about having a gang to hang out with. They are about waking up the being that lives in you under your made up name and personality. Your name is made up, no matter how much you identify with it, it is made up. Your personality is a series of beliefs and defenses that one develops in life to protect one's self and to create an understanding of what is around you so you have a system to operate in while in the world. But it is made up. Before all this, the made up name, this made up personality that one has talked to internally since before you learned language, before all of this, there was a being that took a body at birth. It is the energy that makes your body operate, and it is the one that has a chance of attaining some kind of fredom. However the name and personality, these made up false things we live in, they cloud over the original being. So the idea is to strip away the made up name and personality until they no longer have sway, and the original being, the one that is really alive, can awaken up into real life. That is what all the exercises and changes are about, not about following and joining in.

You may think this is all word play, but your name is made up, and your personality is made up, yet something is alive in your body.

Kalindi lives in a 2.5 million dollar house. That is a deal in Southern California when you consider about ten people live in the house with her. Heck the average house around San Diego is like $850,000, and that is the average with all the cheap houses factored in. The house in Hawaii is much larger because that is where large groups come to see her so they need space. They all may be brain washed and fools for doing it, but they still need the space.

As for the youth, they are mostly coupled up though a few are exploring each other sexually. So what, this sounds like any group of college age kids in America. They have things in their tongues and belly buttons and noses, like half the people that are 20 to 25 have. Granted I am not active and it is possible that all of them are lying to me and they are really having mass orgies, but I doubt it. They are far too open and honest for that.

Last week I went to a birthday BBQ with them and some "outsiders". We drank beer, I played guitar, ate chicken. At one point the children put on a little show to the song "I like Big Butts." Now I realise that is a rather sexual song but the kids were oblvious to that. They just stuffed a bunch of toilet paper in their pants back on thier butts and shuck them around singing they liked big butts and wiggling and laughing about it. I thought it was rather funny. But then I may be brain washed.

All I can say is if you were harmed you need to go tell the people who did it to you and slap their asses around a bit. Or you can yell at me if you want to. Just get it out of you. I have had some rather painful things happen in my life and I know it is hard to bare the pain. Best to get it out.

JM:

Your post does come across as defenesive and you seem to be saying nothing is really wrong with MOL or its leader "Kalindi."

See [www.culteducation.com]

Note the "Warning Signs" of a potentially unsafe group.

It seems that MOL fits well within these parameters.

What accountability and financial transparency does the group or its leader really have?

Is there a published and independently audited financial statement you can point me to that discloses the budget along with any and all compensation paid out?

How is "Kalindi" held accountable and by whom? Is there an elected board?

I have received some very serious complaints about MOL over the years.

You seem to have a rationalization for almost anything.

Well these people are copying and pasting the same things to each other from different sites and i am responding to them. That isn't being defensive that is responding to the group think of this forum. And as you know telling someone they are being defensive is a way of trying to tell them how to act, so what about you?

What private company has publically audited statements? Those are only for publically held businesses so the stock holders can have access to the daily business information and make informed choices on if they wish to invest in the company. As MOL is not a publically held business there would be no reason to act like they should provide the information, so that is a non issue. Where is your's so we can look at it?

JM:

Are you saying that MOL has no religious status, is not a nonprofit and has no tax exemption?

Do you know that for sure?

My understanding was that it is a religious organization.

Well as I am not on the inside that is not an answer that I have access to. My friends who are on the governing thingie tell me they are a religious organization but there are some taxes of some sort paid. Be that as it may there is not to my awareness a requirement for religious organizations to file publically audited records, though that is not my specialty.

I do want to be clear on some thing here, because I think you are holding me as someone defending MOL. I have had my own stories and crap with them, and I could tell you some really interested stories and who to contact if you want the stories fleshed out and varified. I am not however overly concerned with this. I was just reacting to the over whelming discussion here and simply pointing out other sides. I personally know several people who hate MOL after they left, and I mean HATE with really big letters. I also know several hundred who got a great deal from them. I happen to be one who was hurt for awhile but then in the end derived a great gift from knowing them.

On another point - If molvictim was hurt then I am simply saying go slap their asses or the people who did it individually. I am aware of the documents signed because I signed the same thing three times. But we live in a free country and no matter what that paper says we can speak freely. Then main point of the the document is to assure people while they're are within that they can speak and act openly without having to be concerned that it will be made public. That is the basic reason you hear so little of what goes on because people make and accept that agreement. It is like in AA where no one speaks what was said in a meeting. But that agreement does not have the power to cover over an injustice or a crime if one was commited. Especially as the agreement specifically exempts sexual conduct as part of the teaching system of MOL. So if molvictem was forced in some way then there is no reason they can not not look at taking some kind of action. If on the other hand they were in a position where they wanted to be a good person and go along and couldn't resist, that is a different situation. I have fond feeling for MOL but that doesn't mean I support it harming people.

Again molvictim was in a different situation than I. I am not on the active list though I am sort of connected to the group. I was told that if I didn't dig the sexual pull of some of the people then I should tell those people to piss off. I didn't need MOL to tell me that as I would have anyway, but I am just saying that was their suggestion to me. There is guidance and then there is you looking to see if the guidance is crap or not. So I am puzzled by molvictims description. It sounds painful and I am not saying it isn't true but it is not familiar to me. There is a sexual pull in any group though granted many groups aren't saying it is all about love and surrender. And maybe someone tried to manipulate within the system and molvictim didn't see a way to resist. I know there a couple of times I was suggested at and I said no and the people said I was withholding and I said damn right I am and you are manipulating so shut up. But lo and behold I was still around the group. Yet I have to acknowledge I hadn't made the agreement to follow guidance that someone on the "inside" would have so again I can't identify directly with molvictim.

I would suggest if molvictim, or any of the rest of you are need of counsiling there is a good person that my friends who hate MOL go to. If anyone wants to PM me I can give the name and contact info.

Man I sure do yack on when I type.

So if you are interested in MOL I would like to restate, and in a way acknowledge the general flow of this forum, that MOL is not about healing your emotions, or having a gang to hang out with, and if that is what you are looking for you can get hurt. If you are not both emotionally and psychologically strong then I would suggest you think long and hard about continuing after the Intensive. The Intensive is a valuable tool for many people, but life around MOL is not like being in the Intensive. They mean it when they say they are trying to reduce the control of your daily ego so that a deeper part can wake up. There is a difference between that and having your ego overwhelmed to be controlled. It is not a fairy tale ride. Some of the people are not clear that while they have to let go of boundries, you can't force them down until they are actually ready to go. There is a strong tendency after the Intensive for people to give up their life and move here to San Diego to be around the center. They feel extremely opened and loved and loving and want more and think that if they come here that is what they will get. However that opening is within you, and that is where you have to pursue it. If you come here you will find a bunch of people working on their crap, doing a bunch of jobs and work for the mission and also trying to feed themselves. If you are coming to have friends and feel a love that is kind and supporting and sweet all the time, I would suggest you stay at home. They can be extremely loving and kind, but they also mean business on this waking a deeper part of you. And if you aren't on for that ride, then you should not get involved. And if you have a spare million you want to throw at them out of gratitude for the opening, I suggest you hold on to that cash until you have time to calm down and get back into your day to day life. If later you are in a calm and sober state and have thought it through and it still makes sense that is another thing, but don't do anything out of emotional outburst.

Well enough for now, I have yapped enough for the evening.

May God grant you peace

JM:

You seem confused.

First you cinfer that MOL is somehow a "private company" and now you admit it is a "religious organization."

One thing is clear, you don't know where all the money goes and apparently there is no meaningful detailed disclosure to the general membership or the public.

Please understand that many religious organization don't handle their affairs this way and are uch more open.

See [www.ecfa.org]

Kalindi runs the group and she appears to have little if any meaningful accountability. Most religious groups in the US tend to be more democratic with checks and balances to provide safety for their members/participants.

In the end you recommended the intensive, so it seems you essentially are here to defend the group and its programs.

MOL has been called a "cult" and I have received very serious complaints about abuses within the group from former members and concerned families.

I would not recommend the group or its programs to anyone under any circumstances.

Working out problems in a more credible support group, in group or private therapy through a community center or social service agency with safeguards and licensed staff that are accountable would probably be a much more safe and viable option.

Hey there, been a while. No I am not the slightest bit confused. Most Religious Organizations are private entries. The status of private or public is defined by who can have ownership. If ownership is available to the public then it is a public organization. Otherwise it is a private organization with ownership help by a person or group that does not make ownership available to the public. Almost no religious organization is public, and also can not be held by a single person or for the benefit of a single person. As the lawyer of MOL is fairly savvy I am assuming they have more than Kalindi as the owner, though I guess that would just mean there is a group being manipulative instead of one person.

Within the tax code of the IRS there is further break down of private organizations into for profit private companies, sole proprietorships, Religious organization, associations, partnerships, etc. The function of a Religious organization is to hold the capital and property of the religious group at least in terms of it's relationship to the IRS (I just read the code, and yes I have no life). There is no requirement by the IRS to publicly report anything about the organization, and in fact many religious organizations are exempt from reporting to the IRS.

I read the link you provided and it at first appears to be a really cool sounding group, though a very small group of less than 1200 members. I did some research on it by reading articles I found using Google and you might want to get rid of that link. That group was apparently established by Billy Graham because he was found to be hiding quite a lot of money and he needed to cover his butt. He set it up with an apparent high level of standards so that this supposed separate review community could audit him and then say he was a good guy. Almost all the members are also evangelical ministers who seem to be trying to hide thing, and the group you reference often gives them good reviews without even actually doing any review or audit. It is just another cover over con job.

Well, anyway, you seem to think we are in opposition so this is getting circular. I would agree MOL is not a place to go for therapy or to work out problems. I don't know that I would recommend many support groups or community groups either, but that is my opinion. But MOL is not there to work out things, as I pointed out.

Ok, well this is just going to go back and forth and you will always have the final say, so I am going to go on. I do want to acknowledge to other readers your fairness in this conversation. Though you have the ability and right to review and possibly edit statements before they are posted you did allow my statements to be expressed as I presented them, and I salute you for that.

Too bad, I was thinking of giving you all access to some people to get real info from but I lost interest, so why bother I figure? Enjoy the conspiracy, I am off to be further brainwashed. Toodles.

Oh and molvictim, and anyone else interested, there is a therapist in San Diego county that helps a lot of ex members. Her name is Candyce Duvray if you can find her. She has assisted several people I know who felt abused by the group so they could let go of the past around MOL and move on. I recommend her if you are interested.

Alright. peace ya'll.

JM:

Your claim about Billy Graham is ridiculous. Billy Graham has never been involved in any financial scandal and his ministry finances, salary and compensation have been made public for some time.

See [www.ecfa.org]

The Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA) is a highly respected organization and the religious beliefs of its members is not the relevant issue here. The ECFA is an effort to have standards of disclosure and accountability for nonprofit religious organizations.

MOL has no such accountability whatsoever and its finances are unknown to you and the public at large. MOL offers no disclosure.

Yes, a religious nonprofit is not obligated to disclose its finances, salaries and compensation paid out by law, but many do in an effort to demonstrate their honesty and integrity.

The link previously offered that you attempted to dismiss explains why this is important to those involved.

See [www.ecfa.org]

It is interesting to note that you openly admit that former members of MOL have sought help from a mental health professional.

Anyone seeking help should check out such a counselor very carefully.

Does that counselor have experience dealing with groups called "cults" and former members seeking help connected to abuses within that group?

Does the counselor treating former members have any connection to and/or relationship with the group in question?

Does the counselor tend to blame the former members or assign some responsibility to the group they came from?

Is the counselor known to other mental health professionals in the area or elsewhere in the United States who have treated former members of groups called "cults" and destructive organizations and movements?

What do other professionals that have treated former members of such groups think of that professional and would they recommend him or her?

Wellspring Retreat is a licensed mental health facility that treats former members of such groups with almost 20 years experience. This might be a good place to start for recovery information and/or local referrals for licensed professionals in your area.

See [wellspringretreat.org]

The Ross Institute also maintains a directory of professional recovery resources.

See [www.culteducation.com]

I believe that the JM that is posting the previous apologies for MOl is JM Sandlow, MOL's attorney. This poster appears to know a lot more about MOL than most people, and is very familiar with legal information. Just pretending to 'not be on the active list.' Pretty sneaky.

JM:

Thank you for all that you shared about MOL. Your remarks provide further clarity for those who follow this thread. I honor your willingness to communicate about your MOL experiences and knowledge. Those of who have seen MOL at work close hand, are aware of how insidious and tempting the group is to their followers.

Good that you have the common sense not to have "gone active", and maintained such clear objectivity for yourself!

It is interesting, given your remark about MOL's teachings that our souls are more than our name, yet your chosen identity here is the name of MOL's private attorney.

Obviously, the majority of us who post on this message board use pseudonyms, and our personalities come through regardless..we are more than our name. Even Shakespeare said ... A Rose by any other name would still smell as sweet.... Nothing new there.

The concept of stripping the outter identity, for deemed spiritual union, is common with many cults. On a cassette recording of an MOL Intensives, clearly labeled "Not for Public Distribution" - I listened as Jim St. James (another MOL leader) coached a young man through adapting to the new name that Kalindi had given him. The man was clearly not yet comfortable with this new identity bestowed upon him, and the efforts that would be required to adapt his professional and legal identity. On the tape, using a hypntoic tonation to his voice, Jim St. James calmly assured the man to trust and surrender, that releasing his old name was to release his past connection to the Illusion (the material world and his family).

Name changing is an old method used in many cults to further secure the members' identity with the group - apparently also commonly used in ISKCON, Kaldindi's original cult. Not everyone in MOL is blessed to receive a new name by Kalindi, but many of the truly devout are given new names and procede with legal name changing procedures.

Someone else told me about the BBQ you mentioned, and also described those adorable dancing children, wiggling their rear ends to the adults. That person also found it quite funny. OK, so you stated that you think the children were not aware of the sexual implications of that song and dance. Do you think that all the adults observing that dance were watching it equally innocently? I'm not accusing anyone, but creating suggestions with children is generally not wise.
Just a thought.
So much emphasis in MOL of "Feeling the Divine Energy" "God is sensual" Where does one draw the line? Many adults in ISKCON did not draw that line in safe ways with the ISKCON children . Why condone such flagrant potential temptations where children are concerned? Does that have anything to do with the nude photos of childhood Maha (Kalindi's daughter) in meditation rooms? Children are so open to the energy of "G" after all, per MOL teachings.

My understanding that MOL is a nonprofit and functions as a tax exempt religious organization. Most nonprofits make their annual financial statements available to donors, and outside auditors.

Others have mentioned Candyce Duvray, as a therapist in San Diego who has experience assisting former MOL members. I've never found anything about her on the internet though. Do you know how to contact her? Others may appreciate the contact info.

It is interesting that you know some former members who hate MOL so much. Why do you think that would be? So many broken families as spouses leave their families to join MOL and break outside attachments? Maybe they resent the extensive coaching and guidance from MOL mentors and coaches, at great expense? or perhaps the scripted lines used to response to those who question MOL? All the while members were taught to maintain a semblemance of normalcy while they 'play in the Illusion' for a break from this demanding path to God.

JM, Your views are interesting and valuable. Your clarifications and explanations would be quite welcomed. Thank you in advance.

Quote
JM
All I know is I told them that I had no interest in that bed bouncing and would be emotinally messed up for years if I had to participate. So they told me to follow my heart and not do it. .......And again granted I didn't go active so I wasn't under the thumb of any of the leaders.

I have been threatened with being tossed out of the group because I cut loose at the lady one time in a letter and that threat caused me a great deal of mental and emotional anquish. However once i worked my way through why I attacked her and saw I had a lot of hostility towards my mom that I projected at her, I released that and the connection I had towards her. I even wrote her that I no longer cared about her. Not in a negative way or insultive way, just that she was no longer of any real importance in my spiritual seeking, I was mostly focused on God.

........Granted this could be a really subtle form of mind control being used on me, but at no point was I told I would go to hell or I was bad. ......Now days I go to their meditations quite often and their public dances. If you are in San Diego you are invited to come dance if you want. It is free.

......They are about waking up the being that lives in you under your made up name and personality. Your name is made up, no matter how much you identify with it, it is made up. Your personality is a series of beliefs and defenses that one develops in life to protect one's self and to create an understanding of what is around you so you have a system to operate in while in the world. But it is made up. Before all this, the made up name, this made up personality that one has talked to internally since before you learned language, before all of this, there was a being that took a body at birth. It is the energy that makes your body operate, and it is the one that has a chance of attaining some kind of fredom. However the name and personality, these made up false things we live in, they cloud over the original being. So the idea is to strip away the made up name and personality until they no longer have sway, and the original being, the one that is really alive, can awaken up into real life. That is what all the exercises and changes are about, not about following and joining in.

You may think this is all word play, but your name is made up, and your personality is made up, yet something is alive in your body.

.......
Last week I went to a birthday BBQ with them and some "outsiders". ....... At one point the children put on a little show to the song "I like Big Butts." Now I realise that is a rather sexual song but the kids were oblvious to that. They just stuffed a bunch of toilet paper in their pants back on thier butts and shuck them around singing they liked big butts and wiggling and laughing about it. I thought it was rather funny. But then I may be brain washed.