Also, I have seen OA up and around lately, walking, smoking his pipe. I drive by there all of the time on my way around town and can't help but notice.

Apparently he's out of bed and OK enough to walk around, if with his cane...

Zeusor,
To your knowledge, was he inhaling?
cultaware

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Mark Scheiderer
Just talked to Ron Henzel, of Midwest Christian Outreach, a few hours ago, and he had nothing but praise for your book! Have you ever thought about sending copies of the book to various counter-cult/apologetics ministries? As far as I know, there's still only one couple that sides with Ole.

We have had some conversations with some of the counter-cult/apologetics ministries, and they have largely been supportive. Most of those who have bothered to read the book, like Ron Henzel, are very sympathetic. Of course, everyone is disappointed, because Ole was seen a bit of a folk hero in that arena for taking down Robert Tilton. It is not a happy set of circumstances that Ole and Trinity have turned out to share many of the faults of the ministries they have criticized.

To be fair to that couple that you are referring to as siding with Ole, I do not think that is how they would describe their position. They acknowledge that there are some serious problems at Trinity. Their concern was that we should have made an attempt to resolve our differences with Trinity privately rather than going public with our criticisms. There are lots of reasons why I do not agree with them on this, but that does not mean I see them as siding with Ole. They just disagree with us about how we have handled the situation.

Quote
cultaware
Zeusor,
To your knowledge, was he inhaling?
cultaware

He was inhalin', Waylon.

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counselor47
To be fair to that couple that you are referring to as siding with Ole, I do not think that is how they would describe their position.

On the other hand, I do not know why I am bending over backwards to be fair to them, when they have not done the same thing for us. The more I think about it, the more I remember some of the ways they have often just been water carriers for Trinity.
Anyway, Mark, I appreciate your kind words and support.

I think the reason they're inequitable in their treatment of yourselves "vs." Ole/TFI is that "I Can't Hear God Anymore" doesnt' just tell Wendy's story and expose Ole/TFI, it shines a spotlight on the lack of discernment that they (Bill and Jackie Alnor) have. It's similar to Eric Pement not being able to admit that JPUSA is a cult. Pement - who lived at JPUSA for 25 years - and the Alnors have been involved in counter-cult work for years, yet they've been COMPLETELY taken in by something that was literally right under their noses.
Egg on the face is not a pleasant condition to have.
Pride denies that such a condition exists.
Inequitable treatment and ad hominem attacks are the response.
Loss of credibility is the result.

Mark Scheiderer

P.S. - You may not agree with me naming their names, but, just as I believe it is proper to name the names of heretics, cult leaders, etc., I also believe it is proper to name the names of those who defend cults and cult leaders.

One other thing concerning the Alnor's:

Like a handful of others within the counter-cult community - who are supposed to EXPOSE cults and DEFEND those who have left them - they are now also "cult apologists", in that they are defending a cult.

Mark Scheiderer

They're a bunch of pussies, if you ask me.

Seems like about the only people left who do not think that TFI is a cult are people who have never LIVED WITH or spent substantial time around them as a group. Duhh...

Spend a month or so there on the Block, go to the "Bible Studies" every weekday morning and twice a week in the evenings, go to the
Passover feast, where everybody dresses in white and participates in self-disclosure sessions in which individuals' "secret sins" are discussed before Seder, sit at OA's feet all afternoon like he is some kind of Yoda type, really soak up TFI culture for a while, and then you'll discover the incredible fact of the collective consciousness there, the control that OA really does have, all of the unwritten rules, all of the roles that everybody is put into, the degradation, the abuse, the fact that nobody is really allowed to LEARN or GROW as a person or as a disciple there...

I don't care how many titles and credentials come after your name: the bottom line is that if you do not think that TFI is a cult in a classic sense of the word then you are an educated idiot. If you do not think so, go live there a member for a while and then tell us we are wrong.

Otherwise, Dr. So-and-so, you are speaking from an ignorant opinion and have nothing to say.

[www.youtube.com]

The African-American woman in this clip was with Heaven's Gate for LESS THAN SIX MONTHS before she was persuaded to "exit the vehicle" and board the heavenly spacecraft that "Ti" was piloting. The day after this was filmed, she was dead.

Six months! THAT is how powerful these cult-leader personalities are! THAT is how malignant this psychological phenomenon is, this thing that some describe as the "Snapping" experience.

If OA told the "inner cadre" at TFI he was Elijah returned and that Norman Grubb was soon coming in his mystical Vimana vehicle so that they may escape the coming apocalypse:

[en.wikipedia.org]

...and to take them to heaven, then I'll betcha there are the loyal "true believers" at TFI who would be [i:e39b196876]grateful[/i:e39b196876] to OA for allowing them to "evacuate" with him.

Shoot, PE and HG dress like members of Heaven's Gate anyway! Some of them even typically [i:e39b196876]dress just like OA![/i:e39b196876]

Heaven's Gate is at an extreme end of a continuum that TFI is not at (yet).
But the potential, the seeds, so to speak, are there.

The assertion that TFI is not a "cult" to me is as irritating as it is condescending. Hell, if TFI is not a cult, then tell me what is. I don't have to be a PhD to know that.

And I'm not saying that I think that TFI is going to commit group suicide or anything; I am saying, the only point I want to make, that OA [b:1ae3e8a479]certainly and undeniably[/b:1ae3e8a479] holds a lot of control over the lives of TFI's inner cadre, the "true believers". That's all.