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kath
I still do some pagan stuff and most people involved are ok, it's just this particular group that's exceptionally shady.
Love
Kath

Indeed, as a practising occultist I would back that up. In fact people who have a -real- interest in these matters should see it as a duty to expose those who are in it for their personal sexual gratification, such as this 'martin' creature who run's the PA.

In the late 80's I wrote for ORCRO magazine which was dedicated to exposing christain fundamentalist lies about the occult. Now I feel it's time to expose those within paganism and the occult who are sick and dangerous people to prevent another 'witch hunt' fuelled by their activities.


Z. .
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morco2006
.....
As a Pagan myself I have been aware of the Pagan Association for a long time. They are a very highly respected organisation who have on many occasions stood up for the rights of people who have been persecuted and brought some well needed balance and openness to the Pagan scene.
The organisers of the PA have spoken out against and exposed charlatans in the Occult world who have tried to manipulate vulnerable individuals, both financially and emotionally.
...

One of the prevailing myths about cults or cultish groups is that they dont do charitible work. Even Jim Jone's "The People's Temple" raise charity and feed the poor. This is of course befor the infamous Johnestown massacre in Guyana, which claimed the lives of over 900 members.

The group formerly known as "The Solar Temple" who commited ritual suicide and murder had videos of their beliefs condeming things like drugs, guns, war and how they can make the world a better place.

It has been reported that Scientology run a number of "cult watch" sites. In my opinion I think they do it in an attempt to distance themselves from their cult watch critics. Its nothing but a public relationship stunt (IMO).

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zaflon

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kath
I still do some pagan stuff and most people involved are ok, it's just this particular group that's exceptionally shady.
Love
Kath

Indeed, as a practising occultist I would back that up. In fact people who have a -real- interest in these matters should see it as a duty to expose those who are in it for their personal sexual gratification, such as this 'martin' creature who run's the PA.

In the late 80's I wrote for ORCRO magazine which was dedicated to exposing christain fundamentalist lies about the occult. Now I feel it's time to expose those within paganism and the occult who are sick and dangerous people to prevent another 'witch hunt' fuelled by their activities.


Z. .
. .

Nice to know there are others here into the paranormal.
I do believe its time to expose cultish (in the modern sense of the word) groups. Everything from Vampire groups to "Joy of Satan" cultish group. For those who are interested I posted up an article on the Samael Aun Weor cultish groups.

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zaflon
... Now I feel it's time to expose those within paganism and the occult who are sick and dangerous people to prevent another 'witch hunt' fuelled by their activities.


Z. .
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It aint just about another witch hunt its also about the psychological damage these groups do to their "members". And how people's lives are destroyed. It definatly would be good if there are less sick and dagerous people of course.

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zaflon
... who are sick and dangerous people....

Groups dont have to physically dangerous to be distructive. Most groups do not break any laws.

(It becomes dangerous when one replaces his reality of the world with the group's reality of the world. The longer your exposed to a particular group the more vulnerable you become. If you hear something long enough your subconcious mind picks it up.)

I've always thought that 'religion' and/or 'spirituality' whichever form it takes is very personal (subjective). I'm not so naive as to deny its interpersonal (objective) merits, but it seems the whole debate about the 'validity' and/or 'righteousness' of a particular ideology comes about because we've lost a sense of our own 'strength' and/or 'individuality'. I can't see the point (atleast to a certain degree) why a 'person' and/or 'organisation' has to validate itself by trying to sell itself. It would be like me trying to convince others that how I felt was the way they should feel, i.e. if I feel happy, you should feel happy; if I feel sad, likewise. And it's not just about emotions. If I think a ceratin way about something then I expect you to think the same (does that seem Orwellian to you?). The key product, usually, that is being sold is 'dogma' and/or 'rules'. For me, dogma is well and good (we have road rules, for instance), but it tends to close the argument. And note, just before you claim a certain ownership to the 'new' physics, i.e. Quantum Mechanics, that its validity stems from sincere, at times, controversial investigation by those who know how to break the rules (dogma). So, in effect, those of us who advocate a certain dogma and yet use the authority of hard, investigative science to justify the former are 'hypocrites' and/or 'self-interested'.

PS: apologise for words in quotes.

Ok...I've been biting my lip during this whole thread, but I just have to say, for the sake of argument...

What's to stop someone who was NOT in a cult from wreaking vengeance on a spiritual or religious group by claiming that they are a cult? We have no idea if Kath was really in a cult or whether the other poster who claimed to know her was correct in his claim that she is trying to stir up trouble.

Seriously, how would we know? I know nothing about this Pagan Association, so why should I assume anything? Before we all go defending Kath and saying, "Awww...poor victim", why don't we get some facts here?

That other wacky post in 2 forums by the guy who says that some websites nearly cost him his life is also rather suspicious. It seems a bit overdramatic to me.

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Gulab Jamon
Ok...I've been biting my lip during this whole thread, but I just have to say, for the sake of argument...

What's to stop someone who was NOT in a cult from wreaking vengeance on a spiritual or religious group by claiming that they are a cult? We have no idea if Kath was really in a cult or whether the other poster who claimed to know her was correct in his claim that she is trying to stir up trouble.

Seriously, how would we know? I know nothing about this Pagan Association, so why should I assume anything? Before we all go defending Kath and saying, "Awww...poor victim", why don't we get some facts here?

That other wacky post in 2 forums by the guy who says that some websites nearly cost him his life is also rather suspicious. It seems a bit overdramatic to me.

From my understanding no one is assuming anything. Nor are they defending or attacking Kath for that matter. To qoute what I said previously: " Keep in mind its important that you dont blatantly call any group a "cult" (in the modern sense of the word) without any evidence. An alternative wording like "cultish" might be better to avoid any legal battles. "

Facts are difficult to prove on the internet. Thats for the proper law enforcement agencies to decide.

I am not claiming to be a victim, i'm a survivor of this group, as many people are.

I don't know if 'cult' is a useful word in this case, i would prefer 'destructive group.'

The chairman's sexual exploitation, plus their attempts at censoring all opposition, are the cult-like elements.

Lots of 'cult apologists' or members of cults answer threads about their group. I.e landmark members and others write in saying the group is fab. They are more likely to be misleading/misled themselves than I.

Why would I have any reason to dislike them groundlessly, the mere fact that i write about them, means they've given myself and others a destructive experience (to the extent of serious charges being pressed.)

I write the truth of my experience and that of others. The group themselves can't deny that the police investigated Martin Williams over sexual charges for 8 months, and several women feel they have been taken advantage of sexually by him.

They may try to claim our feelings are invalid- but those feelings of having been violated are present no matter how the Pagan Association seek to hide or deride them.
Love
Kath

From my reading of Kath's posting she's not asking for anyone's sympathy, rather just warning others about this PA crowd. I'm sure she could have posted crime report numbers, names of case officers etc. etc. But what would be the point of that? Anyone who was of a mind would just say that was fake too.

As she would have nothing to gain by lying I would deduce her posting is not any form of malice, but rather a warning, which is totally valid. Personally her thread is far from dramatic, rather it's 'matter of fact' tone speaks of it's truth to me.

But let's turn the point you made around. Can the PA prove they are blameless angels? Like any warning, you are free to accept or reject it.

Hi again.
No zaflon(!), I'm not a "pa lackey", I'm simply an individual who happens to live in the same city as the PA organisers and just happen to be very nosey. I've been an occultist for many years, but as I really can't be bothered to get involved with the petty inner politics and bitchiness that's always been a part of the Birmingham scene, I keep myself to myself. However, I love reading what others talk about and the various forums that have come and gone have provided more entertainment for me that Coronation Street. As I said in my original post, I'm not a member of the PA, and to my knowledge I've never met the organisers of the PA in person nor have I communicated with them in any way. In fact I'd go as far as to say the main person behind the PA forum is quite irritating.
Now as I said previously, and I'm very sorry if my first post stepped over any of this forum's boundaries, it was not intended, the reason that I posted here was to challenge Kath's intention to "break down a cult and speed it on its way to non-existence".
If Kath suffered at the hands of one of the organisers as she claims, then that should be a matter between herself and the proper authorities, and if her claims are true, then I'm sure we all hope justice will prevail.
Now as I said, I'm quite nosey... sad but true I enjoy reading lots of different forums. I occasionally learn something! The only reason I know about kath and her partner is because I've read their posts on various forums, and I've watched them get banned. As I said previously, the latest forum they joined removed all of Kath's posts with concerning her arguments with the PA.
Getting banned from a forum doesn't mean they are cult-like. Many forums ban members if they contravene the house rules. Why, I almost gone banned by the look of things here!
Just one more time for the record... I'm not a member of the PA!