Or a 'not-so-real' name as the case may be :lol:

As far as I am aware, everything I have written in this thread has been factual, I'm scrupulous about it.

As to whether or not RhiannonB is a vulnerable woman who has been taken advantage of, that is a matter of opinion and not even voiced by me, hence I placed it in quotes.

Two women have pressed sexual charges against martin williams, and at least one other who didn't take legal action said that he raped her years ago.

Several others say he took advantage, hastled them so much they gave in, and other such sentiments.

As everyone can see who has read this thread, whenever I have not been sure of the facts I have double checked them and corrected them.

Threats of legal action are famously taken by destructive groups as an attempt to suppress the real truth about them being told.

Such cases rarely suceed, and often backfire and lead to far worse negative publicity for the association involved.

Any person who has been separated from their spouse for only 6 months is vulnerable in my book.

Riannon:

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To add further, if the Pagan Association was as bad as Kath and her then partner (they have since split up) are trying to make out then we would not be working in co-operation with various other pagan organisations, including the Pagan Federation, nor would we be allowed to carry on in our work as Hospital and Prison Chaplains. (I think this latter gives some idea of the actual position and standing that Martin Williams and myself have within the pagan community.)

Upon reading this thread, I find it very disturbing, and, unfortunately, am afraid that it will lead nowhere good for the people concerned.

Allegations of rape or sexual harassment are notoriously difficult to prove.
The fact that the person being accused is married, respected in the community, a "chaplain", etc., have very little bearing on whether or not the sexual abuse actually occurred, however.

I certainly hope the authorities will be willing to get to the truth of the matter, should that be what the person who started this thread wishes.

If there is sexual abuse within the group, and if the intent of one victim is to warn others about the possibility of abuse within the group, I hope the thread does so.

Martin is known for these sorts of allegations or feelings being mentioned. It is not defamation, as that is his existing reputation.

As to the woman who as written to the moderator as 'partner of martin williams'- she is not just a biased partner. She is also Treasurer and second in command of the PA, the person writing in this thread as both Rhiannon B, and I believe, Morco2006. As such she is invested and mired in the PA.

I have merely stated that two women have pressed charges against martin in the past- which is a fact, a matter of police record. And yes it didnt go to court. But the police, far from taking their time over it due to not taking it seriously, on concluding their investigations said to me,
[b:205118e42d]
'we really thought we'd got him.' [/b:205118e42d]

Which shows the investigating officers opinion.

Only 1 in 20 rape cases in Britain ever result in a conviction.

As to there being no 'witnesses' to back me up from among members or friends of the PA- quel surprise. Of course I had witnesses on my side.

A complaint of aquaintace rape is very hard to prove as the police themselves said to me.

This doesn't mean it doesn't frequently happen and women frequently report it. It means it often boils down to one persons word against another.

As to women pressing false charges- this is a known myth about rape. The cases of false reporting are the same as for any other crime- 2%.

Also I have said factually in this thread that I have heard of several other women who feel the same way- which I have.

Lots of destructive groups have had allegations or charges pressed of this nature, which have been mentioned on this forum, regardless of whether they resulted in a conviction, which is rare.

It is still information about the group (which they will seek to suppress) that people need to be informed and educated about through this educational forum.

It is not grounds for any legal action as everything I have put is factual to the best of my knowledge.

If it were just one person speaking out, I'd be inclined to say that maybe they were angry or didn't get what they wanted from the group and are looking to stir up trouble. But, when I mentioned this group to my partner, his first reaction was to tell me in no uncertain terms to never get involved with them. The stories he told me are fairly close to what Kath has said and to my knowledge, the two of them have never met. So, I'm inclined to believe that something is indeed off with this particular group.

Generally, when one brings something like this up and people start popping up out of the wood work to call them out for it, that's a pretty good indication of what's going on. Responsible groups don't search websites looking for negative mentions of their group. They don't register for said websites to drag somebody else through the mud. They don't threaten legal action against site owners. They take the route of the sane and professional.

I know a thing or two about false allegations of sexaul misconduct within Pagan groups. It happened in my circle. It turned out to be one girl who seemed to constantly accuse men of misconduct. I also know a thing or two about people using their groups as a means to solicit sex. These thigns do happen. They happen in just about every belief system known to man.

And while I'm up here on Indie's little soapbox, can somebody tell me please when Rhiannon became the name du'jour for Pagan folks? I don't recall that being the case when I named my daughter Rhiannon 12 years ago. That was totally apropos of nothing and I know it, I just find it amusing and slightly disturbing that the name I gave my daughter gets used by someone in just about every Pagan group on Earth.

Okay - this will be something of a long response. I have no idea who "morco" is and the mods will confirm that our IP addresses are completely different.

Firstly, there are NO OTHER WOMEN making such allegations against my husband. Kath is making these up to suit her own purposes.

My husband has never even had sex (oral, anal or vaginal) with Kath or her lesbian lover and the supposed "rape" occured when she, her girlfriend and her male sexual partner tried to seduce us and it when wrong. These are the FACTS of that evening.

A group of 27 people went on a camp together in a small campsite. The tents are about 3 - 4 feet away from each other due to the small size. Over the course of the evening there was much drinking, and Kath and Zaflon (who at the time was Kath's sexual male partner) kept turning the conversation to sex. Kath asked the men to expose themselves, only Zaflon and one other male did. Kath immediately leapt up and started performing oral sex on the other male (who was shocked into silence!) in front of everybody. Being very British everybody simply ignored her behaviour. Kath then spent the next hour trying to get my husband to expose himself by trying to undo his trousers. She then proceeded to perform a very explicit sexual show with her lesbian lover one foot in front of my husband. He ignored her and moved away. At the same time Zaflon kept stroking my thigh and telling me how attractive I was. I got up and went to bed and my husband went to the toilet, also intending to come back to bed. I will also add that during the course of the evening Kath and her lesbian lover were spiking my husbands drink with vodka. After I had lain in bed for less than three minutes I got up and went to get my husband as I wanted to watch the sunrise. My husband was crawling backwards out of Kath's tent doing up his trouser zip as Kath had deliberately told him I had gone back to their tent in order to take him back - perhaps she was hoping I would follow? She was with her lesbian lover all this time so my husband was with two women who were trying to get him and myself into bed. My husband then went straight to sleep in our own tent - they had managed to get so much vodka into him he was barely able to walk - there is no way he could have walked to their tent unless the two girls were supporting him. So Kath and her lesbian lover claimed my husband raped both of them in less than three minutes, in a tent, with someone awake and sober in the tent directly next door to theirs, when in fact, the person in the tent next to them was kept awake ALL NIGHT by Kath, her lesbian lover and her male sexual partner having very noisy sex and laughing all night until 6.30 a.m. in the morning. My husband and I left the camp at 8.00 a.m. the next morning as I was unhappy with the events that had occurred. Kath, Barry and her lesbian lover stayed at the camp all day. Kath was laughing loudly all day and wearing a very short miniskirt with no knickers - is this the behaviour of someone who has just been raped? When my husband and myself returned at 5.30 p.m. that evening Kath immediately came over to me in front of witnesses and said to me (exact words) "I'm really sorry babe, but nothing happened, honest." I told her to go away and that I didn't wish to speak to someone like her. She then went straight over to her tent, and she and her lesbian lover and her male sexual partner packed their tent and went home. A week later she went to the police claiming rape and that she had DNA evidence of my partner's semen on her sleeping bag. The police carried out DNA testing and found the semen on her sleeping bag was not my partners. As I presume that the police would also have taken DNA samples from her other two lovers, if it was not theirs then the question remains whose was it? When my partner and I gave our side of the story to the police (who take all such allegations seriously), they realised that Kath was telling lies, and randomly chose four other people who had attended the camp (including the person who was in the tent next to theirs) to give their version of events too. The 8 month period was because this case was very low priority as far as the police were concerned. Indeed, no one amongst the other people of the camp can or will back up the allegations of rape because they are simply not true.

The reason Kath and Barry are disliked and hounded off internet forums is because of their behaviour and the contempt they are held in by the pagan community.

It transpires that this is not the first time that Kath has made false allegations - people who know her outside paganism have reported to me that she has done this kind of thing before. Kath has also attacked other leading members of the pagan community with horrendous allegations, when they do not wish to be associated with her.

As for the allegations of attracting vulnerable women. Zaflon is an unqualified hypnotherapist yet gave Kath and her lesbian lover, both of whom suffer with [b:6beaba06c2]severe[/b:6beaba06c2] mental illness, "hypnotherapy and counselling for their trauma". That to me, sounds rather cultish.

Which brings me to the other question: "Is the Pagan Association" a cult? The answer to that has to be a resounding no.

What are our terms of membership? You pay £5.00 (approx $9.00) per year for 7 copies of our newsletter and a reduced price private access to Stonehenge. Do you have to be a member to get the newsletter? No - you can buy it for 50p (about $1) at our meetings, which are held in various pubs throughout the West Midlands County of the UK. The accounts are fully transparent, and able to be viewed at any time by paid up members and upon reasonable request by non-members. Do you have to be a member to attend any of our meetings? Again, no - non members are welcome, as are those who are members of other pagan organisations. Do we harrass ex-members? Again the answer is no - some people let their membership lapse, although the trip to Stonehenge (being members only) usually acts as a reminder for people to renew. (There is a small saving of £1.00 to be made by paying for membership.) Certainly Martin, my husband is charming and charismatic, and that is why he is so popular. He certainly has no shortage of ladies competing for his attentions and I get many requests from women to borrow him to take them shopping or out to dinner. In fact one of the women who Tennnecks is saying claimed sexual persuasion actively chased my husband (whilst he was single) and still speaks to him regularly - they remained friends when they both found partners. Of course popularity and charisma will invoke jealousy and bitterness in those whose minds are twisted and warped.

The only reason that various postings and claims made by Kath and Barry have been removed from forums is because in the United Kingdom it is illegal to make claims that someone is a criminal. It is defamation of character and libellous to claim that someone is guilty of a sexual crime when they are not. Surely it is the actions of a reasonable person to want such claims removed? How would people feel if those claims were being made about them?

Can I also correct the terminology? Kath says women have "pressed charges". In criminal acts, charges are pressed by the Crown Prosecution Service and the Police. Individuals cannot "press charges". Therefore it is incorrect to claim that women have "pressed charges". They have made allegations which have been found by the police to be false and malicious. No charges have been pressed by anybody.

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taking it seriously, on concluding their investigations said to me,

'we really thought we'd got him.'

Which shows the investigating officers opinion.

Funny - they said to us that they get annoyed by women wasting their time as it makes it so much harder for the genuine victims of rape. They also apologised for all the stress that they had had to put us through by them having to follow set procedures. The emotion you raised in one of them was loathing and disgust. My personal opinion is that women who make such false allegations are guilty of a crime worse than rape, because they are attacking the genuine victims of rape by making it so much harder for the genuine voices to be heard. Amongst our friends, it is the victims of rape who are the ones who hate Kath the most because they understand fully what crime she is guilty of.

We have been very open within the pagan community about the allegations that have been made, and the pagan community has been very supportive of myself, Martin and the Pagan Association.

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And I would suggest that morco2006 is the Barren-mess herself doing what she does best?

As I have said, I have no idea who morco is - this thread was only brought to our attention earlier this week. May I also add that inventing the nickname "Barren-mess" for a woman whom you know to be going through fertility treatment, shows exactly the kind of person you are and why decent people and pagans don't want you as part of their community.

You are pathetic and sad.

So do you know what the Pagan Association is going to do? We're going to keep doing what we're good at. Acting as a networking organisation for pagans, running pub moots (meetings), organising open events and rituals, organising camps and discos, visiting pagans from other parts of the country and the world, and having a good time doing it. We'll leave the bitter, twisted and sick individuals to drown in their own bile. They only dislike each other slightly less than they dislike the Pagan Association!

Thank you for your time reading this. Perhaps you will allow these forums to do the work they are supposed to do - not as an outlet for the loathsome fantasies of sick minds. Personally, I have better things to do.

Rhiannon Biddulph

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zaflon
More disturbing news. They have a new, 'enforcer', a person who tells dissidents, 'I'm a 6 foot+ ex marine biker' The implication being, I am a trained killer.....

Sorry - one more post as this is so laughable. Zaflon was banned from a forum for breaking the rules (subscribing with multiple IP addresses, and also because the forum owner thinks he's a dickhead). Zaflon then obtained the phone number of the forum owner using "Who Is" or something similar and made two threatening phone calls. The calls were traced and the police informed. When Zaflon found out that he had been making threatening phone calls to a 6ft biker, he panicked and wrote an apologetic email and a letter of apology. No one forced him to write the letter - he did it of his own volition because he's a coward. Zaflon posted the letter, and the next day realised that the letter could be used to make him look a pratt. He then demanded that the forum owner return the letter to him and that he would report the forum owner for theft of the letter if it wasn't. The forum owner couldn't pick himself up off the floor for laughing.

The forum owner will have another laugh when he finds out you've described this gentle giant as a "trained killer" :lol:

A CULT

1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies. THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO SELF WORSHIP! :?

2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: AGAIN THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO SELF WORSHIP! :shock:

3. An object of such devotion. NOT THE SELF! :wink:

4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. I SUPPOSE YES WHEN THEY ALL LOVE THEMSELVES! :cry:

5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols. THIS MAY APPLY AS THE OBJECT OF VENERATION IS THE EGO! :lol:

6. a religion or sect considered to be [b:d01be94a76]false[/b:d01be94a76], unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a leader. FALSE yes! BUT ALL THE REST IS THE SAME AS ANY OTHER WOULD BE PARISH COUNCIL!
:twisted:
7. Small organization attracting a small set of devotees HIM AND HER? :oops:

8. refereed to as a cult. MMMMMM YES A REAL CULT INDEED! :roll:

See [www.culteducation.com]

[b:bc2fc25668]Defining a Cult [/b:bc2fc25668]

[b:bc2fc25668]Isn't the word "cult" a pejorative label used to discriminate against new religious movements?[/b:bc2fc25668]

No. It is disingenuous to ignore the historical significance and modern day applications of the word cult. Today many controversial groups, that have been called "cults", are seeking to either eliminate the word, or create through fear of litigation a reluctance to use the term. Some cult apologists have literally said that "'cult' is a four letter word," and should be replaced by the politically correct title "new religious movement" (NRM). However, historically cults have always been with us and they continue to be a part of the world today.

[b:bc2fc25668]How is the word "cult" defined?
Webster's Dictionary defines a cult as: [/b:bc2fc25668]

"1. A formal religious veneration 2. A system of religious beliefs and rituals also its body of adherents; 3. A religion regarded as "unorthodox or spurious."; 4. A system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator; 5. a: A great devotion to a person, idea, thing; esp.: such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad, b: A usually small circle of persons united by devotion or allegiance to an artistic or intellectual movement or figure."

This definition obviously could include everything from Barbie collectors to old "Deadheads," "Trekkies" to diehard Elvis fans. American history might also include within such a definition the devoted followers of Mary Baker Eddy the founder of Christian Science, or the Mormons united through their devotion to Joseph Smith. Both these religious groups were once largely regarded as "unorthodox or spurious." However, the most important concern today is not simply who might be somewhat "cultic" in their devotion now or historically, but what groups might represent potential problems regarding personal or public safety. That is, groups that are potentially unsafe and/or destructive.

Psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton, who wrote the definitive book about thought reform (often called "brainwashing") also wrote a paper about cult formation. Lifton defined a cult as having the following three characteristics:

A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.

A process [is in use] call[ed] coercive persuasion or thought reform.

Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.

[b:bc2fc25668]Don't some groups once seen as "cults" often move more into the mainstream, becoming generally respected sects or religions? [/b:bc2fc25668]

Yes. There are certainly examples of groups that were once perhaps thought of as "cults" that have evolved into relatively mainstream sects or religions. Such examples as the Seventh Day Adventists once led by Ellen White, or the Mormons, also known as the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints.

But it is also important to note that some groups, which may have once been labeled as "cults" continue to be controversial due to their unsafe or destructive practices. Two examples of groups that continue to be problematic and often destructive are the former Russellites, now known as "Jehovah's Witnesses," that once prohibited organ transplants and still expects its members to refuse blood transfusions, which has resulted in numerous deaths. And the Christian Scientists founded by Mary Baker Eddy who often reject medical treatment, again resulting in the loss of life. Some groups may say they have renounced unsafe or destructive practices, only to be exposed later as guilty of the same extremes and abuses.