Well, after 49 pages, "delusional cult" sums up how I feel about it too.

In addition to what Sahara has summed up (see below) -

Here's another cause for concern:

Moo reportedly associating with Osho people.

We need more information to clarify this.

Rajneesh/Osho's track record is scary.

(CEI archived material about the little dude here)

[culteducation.com]

There's no shortage of persons Moo could associate with who have cleaner histories.

Here's a digest of the various issues people have brought up, including a number of posts about that Osho/Rajneesh people are reportedly associating with Moo.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Sahara71 wrote:

Quote

SadGame,

I think what you are saying is that the Moo group are a cult, but not a destructive cult? Any adverse effects people experience from this group are unfortunate, but because there was no evil intent from Moo or his inner circle, then it's excusable?

I'm not so sure I can agree with that.

I think people have to be accountable. Leaders of religious groups (who very intentionally register as charities for tax-free status) need to put systems in place to ensure that people under their care are not being harmed.

The Moo followers are supposed to be beneficiaries of a "charity" that was set up in order to help them. That is what this group are claiming. They legally have a duty of care to ensure that no-one is harmed by their activities.

Charities have to be accountable. Full stop.

What bothers me is that this group happily calls itself a charity and takes over £400,000 of donations per year and yet does not ensure that people are not being harmed- if fact we have reports of public shamings, ostracism, trance induction, gaslighting, manipulation and duplicity. Not to mention a suicide. And a fire that was likely caused by negligence.

I don't think any of these problems are the result of "oversights". These problems exist because the Moo group are a destructive cult.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2018 11:13AM by corboy.

This Mooji follower lived in Oregon and didn't think much of wild wild country:

[www.elconfidencial.com]

First of all, I have to agree that malicious intent is not required to violate people,
but that harmful behaviours or harmful practices are what matters,
even if they arise as side-effects of well intentioned ideals.
It is a matter of definition what counts as a destructive cult,
if you think exploitation is required, as Lifton does,
I think that presupposes malicious intent but I am willing to let that bit go:

[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote
rrmoderator
Lifton explains:

"Certain psychological themes which recur in these various historical contexts also arise in the study of cults. Cults can be identified by three characteristics:

1. a charismatic leader who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose their power;

2. a process I call coercive persuasion or thought reform;

3. economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie."

The first point is obvious, they worship the hell out of Moo.
The second point, though reform, is pretty much central to the groups goal,
which is to bring people to the “realization of absolute truth”, a radically different view of reality than we normally hold,
which I think can only be achieved by some form of though reform.
But it is also my opinion that though reform in itself is not malicious or harmful,
it is the purpose for which it is employed that makes all the difference.
If the purpose is to make people free of their suffering or bring the to a fundamental knowledge about reality,
which as an apologist I would say the purpose of Mooji's group is,
than I would put the enterprise in the same category as I would psychiatry or academia,
which both employ though reform techniques to bring people to a view of reality
that is “sane” or one that is “scientific”.

The third point is where I think Moo's group falls short of this definition.
I don't think there is “economic, sexual or other exploitation”, especially not in a systemic pattern.
I feel that people willingly engage in this process of though reform, no one seems to be forced to be there or to remain there,
they WANT their thoughts to be reformed, they want relief from their suffering and profound wisdom.
This is why I am looking for clues of coercion and exploitation to be able to complete the definition by Lifton.

Thank you happytown for your effort to sift through the forum and bring together these complaints in a single overview.
Most of the complaints are in the “though reform” category,
which I think is very convincingly shown to be happening in Moo's group.

What about exploitation or coercion? Without it Moo is NOT a destructive cult.

What do you call a well intentioned thought reform group with a leader that is being worshipped as god,
but that people engage in of their own free will and where they are not being exploited?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2018 05:06PM by SadGame.

I replied instead of edited



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2018 05:06PM by SadGame.

Exploitation can come about through indoctrination. You had the ability to choose in the beginning. But you have lost that ability. You are a slave, because:


A closed ashram environment makes double binds fast and effective. Double binds were first observed as prolonged mixed messages from parents that led to schizophrenia in children. Double binds in ashrams, on the other hand, have a specific goal.

A double bind contains four basic features:

1.You must do A.
2.You must do B.
3.B is the opposite of A.
4.You cannot discuss this contradiction.

For example:
1. You must come out of your egoic mind and surrender to God in order to be happy.
2. You must accept that your mind will never willingly surrender.
3. You must do what you can never do.
4. If you don't understand, it's because you haven't surrendered. I'm not interested in explaining it to your egoic mind.

The more willingly you embrace the task of resolving this, the faster the result. And the result is a psychological collapse which, compared to the anxiety-producing double bind, feels frickin' awesome.

If you resist, it means you're in your mind.The mind is the problem (i.e. you are the problem) and so the mind (you) will be pressured and treated with increasing contempt until you either surrender, run away, or go insane.

If you've never experienced this surrender state, it's unimaginable. You are so grateful. You are free! Hey presto, thank you guru. Sign me up.

The question is: what do you do with the individual in this, now vulnerable, state?

The recruit is now in a state of helplessness, and the double bind anxiety can be called back at any time in order to solidify control. Any suggestion that you have fallen back into your ego's grasp induces a phobia response. This becomes second nature with reinforcement.


And now two interesting quotes:

The first from Bhagwan's Devious Trap shows how genuine concerns can no longer be sustained:

"“Rajneesh presents himself as a perfect master,”’ Zeitlin explains. “Therefore, if you see contradictions, if something doesn’t make sense to you, it is evidence that there is something wrong with you and that you need to go to a higher spiritual level. This puts people in a double bind, and the only way for them to resolve it—besides going mad—is to surrender to Rajneesh’s authority.” Floether has alleged that many disciples in Pune were driven to madness by their Rajneesh experiences, and that some were even driven to suicide."

And then the second from Ian Haworth of the Cult Information Center:

"Q: Do you believe intelligent, educated people are more likely to be recruited than people in turmoil or who may be considered unstable?

A: This idea of troubled people is the eternal myth. People want to imagine this is the case because they don't want to consider themselves as "vulnerable". I don't use the word vulnerable very often, but I'd argue that we're all vulnerable to the techniques used by these groups. The late Dr John G Clark, who I quote a lot, said the safest people are the mentally ill. The easiest people to recruit are ones with alert, questioning minds who want to debate issues with other people. You take a strong-willed, strong-minded person and put them into a cult environment and the techniques used will break a person down very, very quickly. The smarter, the healthier the mind, the quicker and easier you are to control. It's just one of these tragic realities."

[www.vice.com]

[newrepublic.com]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2018 06:44PM by happytown.

happytown Wrote:
--------------------------------------------
> The question is: what do you do with the
> individual in this, now vulnerable, state?
>

And also of course, was the individual aware of what they signed up to in the beginning? Did they imagine they would become so helpless?

I understand many eastern spiritual traditions would not consider the actual indoctrination immoral or unethical.

But consent is an issue.

happytown,

you are right consent is very important,
and it is clear that some people have not been aware of what they signed up for,
I have just read through the guidelines and FAQ that are provided to you if you sign up for a retreat
[mooji.org]
which do state that there can be adverse effects if you suffer from preexisting mental conditions,
but not so much that you can experience altered states of consciousness by attending or following "the invitation".
You are asked to watch a video of "the invitation" so you know what you can expect.
I find it too harsh too call this malpractice.

also, you bring forward a very interesting case of coercion through indoctrination by double binds.
You describe a potential scenario of how this process could play out,
and rightly stress the danger of overemphasizing the absolute (god,truth,freedom) in a relative world (of the mind),
nobody will ever be able to shed the relative completely.
Does this mean, however, that this tension is ACTUALLY used by Moo's group
to create anxiety in order to coerce followers.
I think it is only still a potential problem, and I don't think there is evidence for actual exploitation.

Sahara71, You do feel that Moo is a destructive cult,
what form of exploitation do you feel is most problematic?

Also, sahara71, I agree with you that the organization of Moo should be held accountable and that (financial) transparency is warranted.
I feel that engaging in though reform or spiritual transformation processes is such a delicate business
that it should require even more accountability and checks and balances
so as to prevent the organization from causing any harm whatsoever.

The examples of harm done that you mention are in the category of thought reform,
although I feel that if people are intentionally confused (gaslighting) that crosses a line,
but rather than gaslighting, what I would argue happens is
that the radical worldview of Moo's ideal is so different from ours
that it is just by it's nature confusing to many people.

Again, I want to be true and fair.
I think we shouldn't be all negative and suspicious and jump to conclusions.
Actual reports of coercion and exploitation remain exceedingly scarce,
so as to suggest that it is not a systemic malady of Moo's group.

as a sidenote, I am bombarding you with messages from my computer
because I am at home, fallen ill with a minor flu,
I feel a little sad, you are my warmth and solace



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2018 08:39PM by SadGame.

I hope you get well soon, SadG, but it could be that you have been overcome by the apologist flu-state, much like the satsang flu-state. In this state you should not trust your perception or have any opinions, which are all clouded by the flu-state. But rather just listen and trust that we are right. I have been quietly asking your friends to make your life harder and more frustrating, in order to break down your psychological defences and ease this transition.

*Joke* (lol).

I understand it may be important for legal reasons and public opinion to ascertain some definition through examining the currently available online evidence.

I'm more concerned with people who leave this group having experienced such things, in a profound state of distress, who may either:

1. Spend years wondering WTFJH.
2. Internalize the event as a personal failing, and then go off cult-hopping

For them, these resources and discussions *may* help.

Mooji's mental health disclaimer contains the phrase "seemingly overwhelmed" to describe people who suffer difficulties during his rebranded guided meditations. This is a subtle invalidation and a mixed message. It is saying: we don't believe that you can be overwhelmed, although you may choose to be, and so tell us if you're planning on that. It's definitely not our fault.

This mental health disclaimer addition to absolute truth was not in place a couple of years ago. It is a reaction to people losing the plot under their care.

Again there is a huge distinction between retreat attendees and Sangha members. A coercive ashram environment and a retreat environment are not the same thing.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2018 10:06PM by happytown.

Question

How many would pay any attention to Moo or look at his material if they knew up front that Moo was perhaps ifluenced by or might be using methods appropriated from Osho Rajneesh?

Corboys opinion:

One area where Moo ashram residents and Moo retreatants are not different and not to be distinguished is both groups -- and those viewing Moo's Youtube material are the same in that all are being exposed to Moo's recipe.

And in Corboy's opinion, all of them need to know the names of all the gurus in Moo's recipe if they are to be capable of making informed decisions.

For people to be capable of making an informed decision whether to listen to MOo videos on Youtube or sign up to go on Moo retreats or listen to Moo lectures, they need to be told clearly, all the gurus Moo has taken his methods from.

From what has been reported here, it sounds like one of those gurus is Osho Rajnessh, not just Poonja.

Powerful drugs come with lists of all the active ingredients - and lists of reported side effects. We are counseled on these by a pharmacist before using this medication. And if we have side effects, we are told to STOP using that medication and get medical help.

In Corboys opinion it looks like the active ingredients in Moo's recipe
are not only Poonja's neo Advaita, but something from OSHO Rajneesh who is
well documented as having been one of the most poisonous gurus in recorded history.

Unless Moo's recruiters and MOo clearly tell people this, they lack what they need to make an informed decision whether to expose themselves to Moo's poweful methods.

And Moo needs to state clearly just why he admires Osho Rajneesh and precisely what methods of people management, ashram management, group methods and teachings method.from Osho Rajnessh Moo is using at that ashram, or Moo's advisors are using at that ashram.


How many people who sign on to do a Moo retreat understand that they are
not just getting involved with Moo but also with Rajneesh's legacy.

Part of informed consent for signing on for any Moo event or viewing any Moo
videotapes should be (Corboys opinion) that one does not just get involved with Moo, one is also getting involved with Osho/Rajneesh's legacy -- and very possibly some of Osho/Rajneesh's methods and attitudes.

Remember, Osho Rajneesh was the first person to launch a biohazard attack in the United States of America - to skew election results in favor of the guru's followers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2018 10:31PM by corboy.