It would be a interesting project to get the descriptions of Maharshi's talks and compare them with Moo's output.


SadGame wrote:

Quote

One might critique someone else's mind process, such as Moo does all the time,
giving the other a feeling that his or her mind is not to be trusted.
I haven't felt this personally, but I know from the many reports on this site and others
that this is quite common and a serious flaw of Moo's teachings.

For an authority figure* to critique someone else's mind process "such as Moo does all the time" would be very shaming to the person who has been singled out, no matter how many insist that Moo is being loving.

*(Moo is an authority figure no matter how much he denies it)

For an authority figure to 'critque some elses's mind process' in front of large audiences, as Moo reportedly does in front of his laughing audiences, would be
devastatingly shaming.

It is Corboy's opinion that part of the sickness in Moo's set up is how his followers are denying their shame and terror and insisting that this is all about love.

Moo sets up his audiences to laugh, laugh, laugh.

You want to remain part of that laughing audience.

You will feel afraid of getting singled out an laughed at.

Remember how awful that felt when we were little kids, getting laughed at
by adults who thought we were cute?

Again, it is Corboy's opinion that a big part of the sickness around Moo
is how the laughing audience is his accomplice and how his followers deny
to themselves and concerned outsiders their fear of getting singled out, laughed at in public ---while having their mind processes critiqued by the Great Authority Figure.

Denying how frightened you are is key to the cultic arrangement.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2018 09:04PM by corboy.

corboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It would be a interesting project to get the
> descriptions of Maharshi's talks and compare them
> with Moo's output.

I haven't done the work, but my intuition is that
Ramana Maharshi approached questions in a much more roundabout way,
leaving more then enough space for the listener
to interpret in an appropriately situated manner.
Moo seems to have a more direct approach,
which greatly increases the gaslighting potential in my opinion.

(just as a beside, corboy, why do you refer to yourself in the third person?,
it reminds me of 'there is no one there', but that probably says more about me than you.)

corboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Denying how frightened you are is key to the
> cultic arrangement.

Although I said I hadn't personally felt that my mind wasn't to be trusted,
I might just have been, and probably still am, caught in the web of denial
of course I have conveniently projected my own fear
of having my mind publicly scrutinized and revealed as trapped in illusion
onto those who were actually undergoing it.

As liberating to admit this here
as suffocating the anxiety of public shame

Just now found this.

In Need of Satsang Detox

[kiloby.com]

Quote

I have to admit that I am biased. I never attended satsang back in my seeking days. Sure, I watched a DVD or two of a spiritual teacher giving satsang. But once I extracted some really valuable tools, I put all of that down and began investigating on my own. This made all the difference.

When I’m talking to spiritual seekers who are heavily into the satsang world, they often cite “transmission” as the reason they keep going back. The notion behind transmission is that there is some recognition that is transmitted from teacher to student during satsang. I won’t argue with that. Perhaps transmission does happen for some people.

However, continuing to go back over and over and over so easily slips into the realm of addiction, treating the teacher kind of like a drug dealer who is dolling out the good stuff

and

Quote

If you are a satsang teacher or someone who goes to a lot of satsang and this writing triggers you, there is probably something to examine. This writing comes with no ill will towards anyone. No trigger. My body is completely calm as I write this. This writing has more to do with feeling great compassion as I watch people look outside themselves repeatedly for what cannot be found outside oneself.

I would say the same thing to either a drug dealer continuing to doll out drugs to addicted people and to the addicted people who are enslaved to those dealers. And I’m not saying that all teachers are drug dealers and all seekers are like addicts. This is mainly just a metaphor. There are great teachers out there who emphasize self-investigation. And there are seekers who do a lot of self-investigation.

But, if you are triggered by this writing, chances are the shoe here does fit. So maybe take a look. Again, investigate for yourself.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2018 08:12AM by corboy.

Ttoo often the leader gets addicted to that energy raised and the and dependent on his or her entourage. Social isolation and pampering corrupt the guru.

Social isolation, which usually happens when a guru is successful enough to build an ashram or compound is very dangerous.

Philip Zimbardo in his Prison Experiment demonstrated that in the absence of input from outside a group, social isolation leads to exaggerations of power imbalances, entrapment in roles and imates forget, actually forget there is anything outside the group--they forget they can leave.

Zimbardo made no attempt to impart any belief system or doctrine. His test subjects got trapped in the roles of prisoner and guard and things got so bad that Zimbardo ended the experiment early.

It is when a guru is capable of isolating his followers for long periods of time
even if just for a few days to a week or more that, too often FEAR becomes part of the guru disciple relationship.

Fear of losing the bliss
Fear of losing the guru's blessings
Fear of getting laughed at by the group
Fear of getting scorned by the guru and group

All this is enough to bring a trickle of fear into the guru disciple relationship.

When fear enters the guru disciple relationship, this is when that relationship begins to turn abusive/cultic.

Fear paralyses conscious thought. If combined with "teachings" that lead us to distrust our own minds and emotions, this is a dangerous combination. Such teachings are bad enough. Add even the slightest bit of fear to distrust of one's own mind and perceptions and this is poison, with no safe level of use.

All a guru has to do is begin hinting of dark forces, or a malevolent outside world, all a guru has to do is hint that his or her blessing is needed for protection, that one can lose the guru's blessing through doubts or negative thoughts and the guru disciple relationship becomes yet more burdened with fear.

Another fear recipe, perhaps even more effective, is for disciples to tell stories about the guru, tales of how doubts made the guru sick. Tales of how
doubters and former disciples have gone crazy, suffered misfortune.

Before the fear teachings slip into our beings, we often feel energized and vitalized by the guru disciple relationship. We may accomplish things we were never able to do before.

Horizons open. That combined with friendships formed, shared sense of purpose, shared work projects is a fantastic feeling. We may feel liberated from life long depression, anxiety. The problem is, this feeling of liberation is
not based on deep and enduring change in our character structures. It is dependant on idealization of the guru and the special idealistic social group around the guru.

When we feel so healed, we do not want to lose that feeling.

This is where the possibility of fear enters our relationship with the guru.

A genuine guru would do everything possible to get each follower tied to
sources of healing independent of the guru and ashram so that the person will
not feel dependent on the guru or ashram. A real guru does not want to
become something that people feel addicted to.

But, if a guru is enriched by having many disciples, what incentive is there to do this.

But as fear makes its way into the guru disciple relationship, we slowly lose that initial vitality, which happened only because fear was not yet a part of the relationship.

We do not want to lose that wonderful feeling of being vitalized, but because we ARE being given genuine cause for fear, nothing we can do can get that vitality back unless we deny we feel afraid of what the guru is doing, or might do.

We split off and disown our fear, and what leads us to fear the guru. We split off and disown our doubts. We split off and disown the worrisome sights and events that trigger our fear and our doubts. We split off and disown our indignation when we see someone getting laughed at in satsang, see the persons eyes fill with tears, shoulders tensing and hunching, face reddening or going pale and frozen.

We split off and disown our hurt and shock when a guru makes a joke and suddenly slips in a sharp, cruel or lewd comment. We tell ourselves it is a joke or therapeutic crazy wisdom. We split off and disown the sick feeling in our guts.

Our fear, our anger, get split off. We may be aware of each and every incident but we will not or cannot connect conscious thought with these incidents and our bodily awareness of them.

As we seek to reclaim that lost bliss of our early fear free days with the guru, we must exert vitality to suppress all our emotions all our awareness of incidents that call into question our idealized early relationship with the guru.

To get that feeling we once had of being energized by the guru, we must expend energy to preserve our ideal of the guru, because that ideal is no longer supported by evidence of our own eyes and ears.

Disowning what we know exhausts us. We are feeling drained by telling ourselves to ignore our fear, ignore what our senses are telling us.

To offset feeling drained, to try and regain feeling vitalized by the guru, we throw ourselves into service. We are driven to recruit new followers. The joy of
recruiting new followers for the guru we secretly distrust temporarily
vitalizes us, but the feeling is temporary.

First we are vitalized, eventually we become vampirized. Its the memory of being initially vitalized that keeps us longing for a return of the good old high energy days, and ignoring that we are being vampirized.

And if we urge new friends to join the group, we risk their joining the donor pool and ending up like us.

That may be why such groups are desperate to recruit. The people getting debilitated get a transient flash of vitalization by pulling new donors in---they summon memories of when the group had intially vitalized them.

As someone put it,

Quote

Its the memory of being initially vitalized that keeps us longing for a return of the good old high energy days, and ignoring fears of the guru that are draining us.

And if we urge new friends to join the group, we risk their joining the donor pool and ending up like us.

That may be why such groups are desperate to recruit. The people getting debilitated get a transient flash of vitalization by pulling new donors in---they summon memories of when the group had intially vitalized them.

Pulling in a new donor helps the weakened older donors to ignore their increasingly drained state.

One way to deny the fear bond one actually has with the guru is to compare yourself to other disciples who are demonstrative in their blissful devotion.

You watch them or hear of them going all out. Throwing themselves at the gurus feet in public. You look at them making those embarrassing infantile displays of emotion and hold yourself aloof. Especially if you are a professional, with a public reputation to keep.

We listen to the blissful disciples gush about the guru. We make sure we do not talk about the guru that way.

We will ourselves to feel sober and adult in relation to the guru.

Yes, we feel adult, sober, independent in relation to the guru, but those are
just self willed perceptions.

We are denying, keeping secret even from ourselves, how achingly dependent we feel, how abjectly terrifyingly grateful we feel -- and how terrified we are of anything or anyone or any incident that will disrupt this real bond we have with the guru.

We refuse to admit this to ourselves. We are like the alcoholic who wills herself to feel lucid and safe to drive, when she's legless, staggering and her blood alcohol is over the legal limit.

We convince ourselves we are not already trapped in a love/fear dependence bond with the guru and group. f

We profess skepticism. We convince ourselves we have a sense of proportion about the whole thing, that we have not lost our heads and hearts, despite already having handed them over to the guru.

We may be able to complain about the guru, but these are token complaints. We may say we are disgusted and dismayed by the way people fawn all over the guru.

We ignore that the guru permits this fawning and created the entire social setting in which the fawning takes place.

we may speak, with contempt and disgust, how many disciples brag that they have stopped thinking.

We do not want to admit that we are afraid to think clearly or closely about our actual feelings towards the guru.

We are afraid to admit that we are horrified that life with the guru is all about big expensive buildings.

We are afraid to admit that we really hate the clothes and colors we are expected to wear, how we really dislike the guru's artwork.

We can't stand to admit we hate the type of artwork music and decor we are expected to have in our homes and offices.

We do not want to admit we afraid think clearly and closely about lies we have told, ethical violations we have committed that the world outside the ashram, church or lodge would not approve of. We do not want to admit that have become afraid of our own memories, our
own doubts, our own dismay at the secrets we now keep - secrets that also keep us -- keep us trapped.

We may speak of how needy the new generation disciples are, that they are infantile, demanding to be spoonfed, that they are making the guru overworked by their sheer numbers and their disgusting neediness.

We ignore that we are feeling just as needy and are terrified to admit this because we can see no way to leave the situation, leaving feels to us like emotional and social death.

We ignore that we are furious because we cannot see the guru any more, not like the good old days when it was just a few disciples. Above all we ignore that the guru is intentionally selecting and intensifying "neediness" in disciples.

Saddest of all we may be afraid to admit that the guru wants as many new disciples as possible, because the new disciples are uncritical are adoring and with the new ashram facilities and guru videos on YouTube arrive already pre formatted for indoctrination.

We may be afraid to admit that the guru does not want us old timers anymore, because we remember when the guru was young and slim and handsome, did not throw tantrums and was easily accessible.

We do not want to admit that to the guru, we were one among many, like a can of beer, appreciated when full, ignored when emptied.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2018 09:50PM by corboy.

corboy, your posts reveal a deep understanding of the social dynamics of cult like groups,
and you pick up essental clues from my posts, like denial, and belonging a while back,
to give very articulate, comprehensive and useful evaluations of these topics,
with a subtleness and sensitivity that i love and truly admire.

but..

you are a bit overwhelming with the posts,
you swamp any discussion with essays that speak on a topic that has been raised
but fail to remain part of a conversation, you are saying so much
that it is almost impossible to react adequately
the last rant is so repetitive that it reminds me of trance inducing strategies
strategies i feel we are supposed to be critiquing not practicing here.

some of what you say may apply to me, I have to admit (i think i already did) , just as some of it doesnt.
but the whole thing is suggestive to such a degree that I am starting to take offense
no offense to you though, just needed to let you know how I feel.
Again i really value your insight into the whole thing, but i dont like feeling overwhelmed by such a mass of it at once, put in this suggestive style.

If I can put in my own two cents worth;
I think Corboy writes from the heart. He has stated that his own life has been effected by a cult and I think he wants to share the intricacies of how he felt in order to help others.

Of course, what Corboy says might not be relevant to each and every person who's life has been effected by a cult.... but I find his intentions very sincere.

Some people who have been involved with cults look back on their time in the cult and say that it wasn't all bad - like "I yam what I yam" who has posted in this discussion, a few pages back. I find her account sincere, too. It's really difficult for me to accept that someone could gain any benefit at all from being involved in a cult, but if she says that she did benefit and we have to acknowledge her account.

SadGame, you might be feeling stressed about anyone who uses persuasive language to explain their point of view, because you are 'suspicious' that you might fall under their influence, in a similar way to how a cult leader can influence us.

I actually have the same problem. Up until I came under the influence of Moo and his mind control techniques, I never had this kind of worry in my life!

I was the type of person who would just laugh at politicians and the kind of bombastic persuasive language that they would use to railroad an interviewer on tv, for example. I only found this kind of thing amusing.

If I read a book that I thought was hogwash, I would think to myself "how did that book ever find a publisher? That person who wrote it does not sound educated!"

Now, I actually do see plenty of times in my personal life where I have come under the influence of other people's opinions, especially group opinions, and at those times, they did manage to influence how I felt and what I thought, without me thinking critically about what was going on!

One example I can think of now is a job I used to have in a large public institution where there was a cultish atmosphere. You had to say and do things like everyone else in order to fit in and be accepted.

Another example was a personal relationship where I was gaslighted to the point where I became confused and unhappy.

If I hadn't have had the experience of coming under the influence of Moo, then I doubt I would be able to question these prior experiences to the same degree.

So, SadGame, I think you are right to question everything, at this point in time.

It is healthy to be questioning things.

It would be helpful if people who have been to Monte Sahaja (near Antenejo, Portugal) or Zmar could
tell us if participants in Moo retreats can keep their phones and passports or whether these must be handed over.

Also worth knowing is information on whether ashram visitors and participants at retreats/intensives can easily recharge their phones when at Monte Sahaja or Zmar.

If no electrical outlets are available, are visitors told in advance to bring solar powered phone chargers.

Having a phone is vital if you are worried and need to speak to a friend outside the ashram.

Having a phone is important if you decide to leave early and need to call for someone to bring a car and take you to a hotel.


And - it would also be useful to know if Monte Sahaja and Zmar both have disaster response procedures in place.

2017 Fire and a Suicide


Suicide

Suicide in Mooji's ashram- time for a debate about this kind of thing?

[www.reddit.com]

and

What is Mooji's Invitation?

[www.reddit.com]

On that thread, one person wrote:

Quote

frittenburg 1 point 1 year ago
I am so so so sad about this. I didn't know this poor guy but several people have ended up in mental health care after mooji's retreats in the last few years. This is not an isolated incident. The team who have the responsibility for looking after these people are simply unqualified. Something has to be done.

I don't understand why you ask a question about the invitation and then just drop this shocking news in as a sidepiece?

Fire Hazards

Due to tinder dry conditions, Portugal has suffered devastating wildfires in 2017 and 2018.

[www.google.com]

This item from the reddit discussion is worrisome.

It refers to a fire that, from the printed report, stated at Monte Sahaja ashram in one of the work stations.

The fire seemed to have started in the work station room where most structures and furniture are built for the community

[www.reddit.com]

Quote

"A large fire broke out unexpectedly in Monte Sahaja at approximately 3pm today. Most residents had to evacuate the land but no one was hurt. Many stayed behind to assist the fire teams.

The fire seemed to have started in the work station room where most structures and furniture are built for the community. It is not yet confirmed how the fire started. The fire was so fierce that all of the work stations were burnt to the ground.

Fire fighters, known as Bombeiros, came from various stations in the Alentejo region to help put out the fire. They arrived on the land with fire engines and helicopter.

Together with Monte Sahaja’s own fire team they fought the flames until the fire came under control.

The mayor of Sao Martinho das Amoreiras, Nuno Duarte, ensured that Sahaja residents were cared for by providing shelter, blankets and food at the local community hall in the village.

Many villagers came forward to offer shelter, food and love to the sangha. The residents of Monte Sahaja thank the Bombeiros for their prompt response and selfless service. We also thank the mayor, the police, Sandra from Zmar, Mario the former mayor and the local community for their care and support.

When Moojibaba was approached for a response he said,

Quote

“We are indebted to God’s grace continuously. Things could have been much worse as we have seen in this season’s series of wildfires here in Portugal. This could have resulted in a huge tragedy. Grace kept the wind from blowing. We are in gratitude.”

We will keep you informed as more information becomes available."

comments following

Quote

ll 8 comments
sorted by: best

blackseanSwan 2 points 11 months ago
I'm glad everyone is okay


AlesDostal 2 points 10 months ago*
I watched Mooji's comments about the fire in Monte Sahaja at new/mooji.org. Mooji seemed to be very down and scared, it's very dangerous and devastating for ashram and other farm houses. It's not easy to deal with the fire in the areas, there is no water there, wild forest and dried land. A lot of local people are very worried of the wild fire, because the evacuation or escape is not easy the forest is everywhere....It seems that many young people-amateurs have worked for free in the work stations for several months (no payments, no earnings, no safety) and something happened there....


kissedxgrace 1 point 10 months ago
i could see sadness and pain in his eyes, he is human after all with a true living heart. but it doesn't go deep. he knows

i'd say it's a miracle 150+ ppl evacuated w no injury. like 41 ppl have died from portugal's fires this season, including an infant </3. supposedly one of the fires in the Alentejo region (where Monte Sahaja is located) started when someone threw a cig on a highway, that's how dry it is there

it's inspiring to see how everyone in the mooji circuit has responded, such strength and calm - a real trust in the universe. i am sure and certain with Mooji's Presence around, ordinary events such as a fire (an element that cleanses and purges) will take on extraordinary meanings. im sure the movement he leads will "rise from the ashes" with even more vigor and vitality. peace


AlesDostal 1 point 10 months ago
Mooji have looked very sad and depressed after the fire breaking out in Monte Sahaja on 17/11/2017 (new/mooji.org), because Mooji always wants to create a spiritual heaven there with the divine Grace and his own blessing. Mooji likes to promote Monte Sahaja as the symbol of the liberation, divine Grace, spiritual well-being, and prosperity (mooji.org/front page). But the reality of the human life or a spiritual community may be a little bit different and a lot of stuff may happen to everyone and everywhere even in Monte Sahaja. There is no need or is unreal to glorify Monte Sahaja ashram or to make it a holy place on the earth as in Mooji's previous talks .

kissedxgrace 1 point 10 months ago
it's true we dont know what the underbelly of sahaja looks like. from many's testimonies in Satsang they say it really is a heaven, because the beings who live there don't relate personally, from the little person, but the climate is a universal love. mooji has said many times "Sahaja" is not a physical place but a state of being. ur right tho there's no need to glorify. we're so tiny.

Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2018 09:15PM by corboy.

I just wanted to share a link to a BBC documentary about the science behind hypnosis. As some of you who are reading this might be aware, some of the most effective and successful cult leaders know how to use trance induction or hypnosis to draw unsuspecting people in.

Osho was one of these successful cult leaders and Mooji is another one.

[www.youtube.com]

Notice towards the end of the video, a British doctor who uses hypnosis working with patients in his clinical practice compares hypnosis to 'brain-washing"!
I found this fascinating.

This doctor (who treats people with IBS - irritable bowel syndrome) seems to be getting some good results, and clinical trials are reporting that his techniques are successful.

He says that once a person is under the influence of hypnosis, you basically just "drone on and on" repeating and repeating "lots of pleasant suggestions". He says it's like you are "brain washing" the person. His words!

And I feel that this is exactly what Moo does. And it works.

I found this comment on the website [gururating.org] -posted on October 5th of this year (2 weeks ago) by "Emely":


I lived at Sahaja with Mooji for quite some time and I can confirm that alot of these allegations are true. I did not want to believe nor see what was really going on at Sahaja even though a few people spoke of things. Every time a serious allegation came up against him it was immediately shut down and labeled “mind activities”. He always pushed us to challenge him and as soon as a challenge arose that critisized him he would verbally attack the person. He teaches us not to be attached to other people but its ok to be attached to him because and I quote “I will never be attached to you”. He constantly reminded us that we are not interesting at all or our stories meanwhile we listened to his life stories everyday. I saw him as a bully but did not want to accept what I was seeing becuase he made me believe it was only my mind. It was by the grace of God that I was able to escape there which he and his crew did not want for some reason. He totally messed my life up, I gave up everything for him. Somehow he put us in direct competition with each to fight for his acknowledgemnet and most of us had no idea that thats what we were doing. I did not realize this until I left. Im so thankful I got away from him, I have had countless nightmares about him. I hope some of you who reads this with doubt in your mind who live in Sahaja trust your feelings. Instinctively you know something is wrong, trust that and really look around you. I pray for his devotees daily. May God have mercy on their souls.

I think this report explains the level of psychological abuse, manipulation and gas-lighting going on in the Moo Cult. Luckily, some people manage to escape!