Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: February 17, 2009 08:22PM
bluesky:
Yes, you are "no psych" to be sure.
Coercive persuasion/thought reform techniques don't rely solely upon "hypnosis." In fact, only some cult leaders use hypnosis as a tool or technique of persuasion.
To better understand coercive persuasion see the following link:
[www.culteducation.com]
The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:
1. The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance
2. The use of an organized peer group
3. Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity
4. The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified
Coercive persuasion or thought reform is notably different from other forms of persuasion such as education, advertising, propaganda and indoctrination.
The following chart denotes the distinctions:
See [www.culteducation.com]
Cult leaders can be seen as little more than purveyors of "flim flam" or con men, with the exception that the con can continue indefinitely and becomes a way of life.
Though people seem to make "choices" in the process of being victimized by con artists, these are not fully informed choices and it certainly doesn't excuse the perpetrator.
No one is "undervaluing their own choices..or are denying them and the responsibility to make them."
That comment is not only "harsh," but an ignorant remark. Do some more reading and learn about coercive persuasion techniques.
A board like this with the attached database helps the public to become more informed about such issues.
Frankly, you seem to be attempting to shift the blame to the victims, rather than identify more precisely how perpetrators of this type of undue influence manipulate others and actually operate.
Simply ignoring the responsibility of those that use coercive persuasion and going on about "personal responsibility" and taking your "power" isn't really much of solution and largely ignores the facts.
For example, it is ignorance at best and perhaps hubris to think that somehow you are invulnerable due to some sort of "personal authority."
Really almost anyone can succumb to coercive persuasion, depending upon personal circumstances and timing. At certain times we are all more vulnerable and a close friend, romantic interest, family member or trusted co-worker may act on behalf of some group or leader.
Those who somehow believe "it could never happen to me" often make the easiest targets.
Rick A. Ross
The Cult Education Institute
www.culteducation.com
rickross@culteducation.com
Yes, you are "no psych" to be sure.
Coercive persuasion/thought reform techniques don't rely solely upon "hypnosis." In fact, only some cult leaders use hypnosis as a tool or technique of persuasion.
To better understand coercive persuasion see the following link:
[www.culteducation.com]
The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:
1. The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance
2. The use of an organized peer group
3. Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity
4. The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified
Coercive persuasion or thought reform is notably different from other forms of persuasion such as education, advertising, propaganda and indoctrination.
The following chart denotes the distinctions:
See [www.culteducation.com]
Cult leaders can be seen as little more than purveyors of "flim flam" or con men, with the exception that the con can continue indefinitely and becomes a way of life.
Though people seem to make "choices" in the process of being victimized by con artists, these are not fully informed choices and it certainly doesn't excuse the perpetrator.
No one is "undervaluing their own choices..or are denying them and the responsibility to make them."
That comment is not only "harsh," but an ignorant remark. Do some more reading and learn about coercive persuasion techniques.
A board like this with the attached database helps the public to become more informed about such issues.
Frankly, you seem to be attempting to shift the blame to the victims, rather than identify more precisely how perpetrators of this type of undue influence manipulate others and actually operate.
Simply ignoring the responsibility of those that use coercive persuasion and going on about "personal responsibility" and taking your "power" isn't really much of solution and largely ignores the facts.
For example, it is ignorance at best and perhaps hubris to think that somehow you are invulnerable due to some sort of "personal authority."
Really almost anyone can succumb to coercive persuasion, depending upon personal circumstances and timing. At certain times we are all more vulnerable and a close friend, romantic interest, family member or trusted co-worker may act on behalf of some group or leader.
Those who somehow believe "it could never happen to me" often make the easiest targets.
Rick A. Ross
The Cult Education Institute
www.culteducation.com
rickross@culteducation.com
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: February 17, 2009 11:57PM
Going For the Gold
Current price of gold today:
Public Service Annoucement--How Not to Lose Your Gold
To prove that RR.com is a full service continuing education website-- not only is it wise to leave jewelry, checkbooks and credit cards at home, if entering a human potential event---
Dont wear your ring/s when you go into the ocean or a swimming pool, either.
They interviewed a fellow in Hawaii who owned a metal detector. He told the reporter that over the years he had found a LOT of gold wedding rings when using his machine to scope the sands of Hawaiian beaches.
A lot of newlyweds wore their rings, went into the ocean, their fingers shrank in the cold ocean--and their rings slipped off.
A lousy thing to have happen on a vacation or a honeymoon.
And...never take a ring off when in a public restroom.
Too many lady friend have stories of forgetting to put them back on--or having them stolen.
Finally, if you like to wear gold chains and stuff, be discreet.
Thieves are already robbing folks of high resale value items such as iPods and laptops and phones--especially on public transportation and at open air cafes.
But its only a matter of time before we start hearing more news reports of folks reporting that their gold chains are being snatched and grabbed.
A classmate of mine is a man from India. He was quite innocently wearing a king's ransom worth of gold jewelry to class, thinking he was as safe doing this in the States as he was in his home area in India.
I took him aside and told him the sad facts of American life and he's now more discreet and keeps the stuff tucked into his shirt collar and sleeves.
And... if wearing a lot of gold bling, and you're at a bar or elsewhere, dont get drunk or drugged.
Keep your drink/s under your scrutiny and control at all times, just the way they tell us to keep an eye on our luggage when at the airport.
---End of Public Service Announcement---
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2009 12:08AM by corboy.
Current price of gold today:
Quote
Gold Bullion 969.00 US$ per ounce up $26.00 from yesterday
$961.00 (opening price) $971.00 (low) $961.00 (high)
[www.monex.com]
Public Service Annoucement--How Not to Lose Your Gold
To prove that RR.com is a full service continuing education website-- not only is it wise to leave jewelry, checkbooks and credit cards at home, if entering a human potential event---
Dont wear your ring/s when you go into the ocean or a swimming pool, either.
They interviewed a fellow in Hawaii who owned a metal detector. He told the reporter that over the years he had found a LOT of gold wedding rings when using his machine to scope the sands of Hawaiian beaches.
A lot of newlyweds wore their rings, went into the ocean, their fingers shrank in the cold ocean--and their rings slipped off.
A lousy thing to have happen on a vacation or a honeymoon.
And...never take a ring off when in a public restroom.
Too many lady friend have stories of forgetting to put them back on--or having them stolen.
Finally, if you like to wear gold chains and stuff, be discreet.
Thieves are already robbing folks of high resale value items such as iPods and laptops and phones--especially on public transportation and at open air cafes.
But its only a matter of time before we start hearing more news reports of folks reporting that their gold chains are being snatched and grabbed.
A classmate of mine is a man from India. He was quite innocently wearing a king's ransom worth of gold jewelry to class, thinking he was as safe doing this in the States as he was in his home area in India.
I took him aside and told him the sad facts of American life and he's now more discreet and keeps the stuff tucked into his shirt collar and sleeves.
And... if wearing a lot of gold bling, and you're at a bar or elsewhere, dont get drunk or drugged.
Keep your drink/s under your scrutiny and control at all times, just the way they tell us to keep an eye on our luggage when at the airport.
---End of Public Service Announcement---
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2009 12:08AM by corboy.
Byron Katie (the Work) and DeNile is not just a river in Egypt.
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: February 18, 2009 05:54AM
Bluesky:
You have mentioned a lot of things, here is a quick response. You probably have not read the entire thread, as its so long. But I have written out specific self-imaging techniques that can help and empower people to not allow people like Katie to influence them so much.
But one can't just only look at the blue sky, one has to look at the shit too, so you don't step in it.
1) Byron Katie is highly skilled at group persuasion. The worse thing one can do is ignore her, and people like her. This is not only about BK, but about the hundreds of mini Gurus like her, all doing similar patterns on people.
2) Hypnosis is a complex area, but its not so much about so-called "hypnosis" but about unconscious persuasion. For example, her School For The Work LGAT techniques, are all by the book. Most of these LGAT seminars use similar methods, if not the exact same ones. Byron Katie uses MORE than most other LGAT's, as many of them don't tell you where to sleep, or try to get into your sex life, or food, etc.
Most of them also don't try to get into your Trauma, like BK does, which is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. PTSD kills, that is a fact. Suicides in PTSD and trauma are very high, and only should be dealt with by trained professionals.
3) Straw Man: You ideas about "hypnosis" and "choice" are not accurate. This is about PERSUASION which makes people think its a Voluntary choice they thought up themself. That is the most basic element they are working with.
Persuasion is much more powerful when you think you are making the "choices" in a voluntary way. But there are profound issues at play, like for example, basic Social Pressure and group conformity. There are dozens of methods of persuasion being used, imaging, contrast, inducing pain, creating confusion...etc.
Also, no one is saying BK is reprogramming people like a computer. That is a metaphor, but she is repatterning and reforming people's thinking and self-images with her methods being done over days and weeks and months and years.
Also, its not just about selfishness and self-protection only. Like I have said, put BK in front of a group of advanced NLP style hypnotists, and they would giggle at how blatant she is, until they started to cry when they saw she was seriously doing this to soccer moms with no training in these areas. Then a few of them who are greedy, would join her in business. (Stever Robbins, for example).
People read criticism like this, and it can help them make informed choices. Just saying "she can't touch me" is actually a form of denial. She can touch people, and she knows how to do it.
People need to read the contracts, and the elements of the LGAT seminars, and study up on persuasion tactics. But even then, you can still get DUPED. Anyone who thinks they are untouchable is just being arrogant. This is tricky and slippery and dangerous stuff.
Byron Katie is quite skilled at these methods, and that has been proven over and over again. Even just in her construction of double-bind sentences, as has been shown.
99% of the people who go to these LGAT seminars have no idea of what is being done to them. This is not taught anywhere yet, so almost no one knows anything about it.
Also, its not all about Byron Katie, as many people do the same things she is doing.
So its about a general education as well.
These LGAT seminars make billions a year in many areas. The public has almost no idea of what is going on.
Some of us who have been though countless LGAT's, most of them done for research, know how powerful they are. We have seen regular people turned inside out, flipped into outright mania and psychosis, and spend thousands on a credit card, even sell their homes and go bankrupt with some deeper scheme they get lured into.
The worst thing people can do, other than denying these Gurus are anything other than Spiritual Teachers, is to ignore them. Smiling politely at Byron Katie and Werner Erhard and PSI Seminars, Landmark, Scientology, and all of the LGAT groups, is probably the worst thing one could do, other than endorse them and market them.
People need to speak up, and point out publically what they are doing to people.
Ignorance is not bliss.
On the positive side, learning about all these techniques is very interesting, and it can help in many areas of one's everyday life. Even people who sell cars and houses, and "financial instruments" are learning some of these methods these days from sales seminars and books. So its smart to know what's going on.
It can also help in keeping people safe in the future from another Guru wolf in a different brand of sheeps clothing.
Knowledge is power, and that is why they keep this knowledge hidden from their public.
We need 100x more public education than we have now. The public is almost completely unaware of what goes on in these LGAT seminars, and the advanced methods of these new age Gurus.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2009 06:01AM by The Anticult.
You have mentioned a lot of things, here is a quick response. You probably have not read the entire thread, as its so long. But I have written out specific self-imaging techniques that can help and empower people to not allow people like Katie to influence them so much.
But one can't just only look at the blue sky, one has to look at the shit too, so you don't step in it.
1) Byron Katie is highly skilled at group persuasion. The worse thing one can do is ignore her, and people like her. This is not only about BK, but about the hundreds of mini Gurus like her, all doing similar patterns on people.
2) Hypnosis is a complex area, but its not so much about so-called "hypnosis" but about unconscious persuasion. For example, her School For The Work LGAT techniques, are all by the book. Most of these LGAT seminars use similar methods, if not the exact same ones. Byron Katie uses MORE than most other LGAT's, as many of them don't tell you where to sleep, or try to get into your sex life, or food, etc.
Most of them also don't try to get into your Trauma, like BK does, which is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. PTSD kills, that is a fact. Suicides in PTSD and trauma are very high, and only should be dealt with by trained professionals.
3) Straw Man: You ideas about "hypnosis" and "choice" are not accurate. This is about PERSUASION which makes people think its a Voluntary choice they thought up themself. That is the most basic element they are working with.
Persuasion is much more powerful when you think you are making the "choices" in a voluntary way. But there are profound issues at play, like for example, basic Social Pressure and group conformity. There are dozens of methods of persuasion being used, imaging, contrast, inducing pain, creating confusion...etc.
Also, no one is saying BK is reprogramming people like a computer. That is a metaphor, but she is repatterning and reforming people's thinking and self-images with her methods being done over days and weeks and months and years.
Also, its not just about selfishness and self-protection only. Like I have said, put BK in front of a group of advanced NLP style hypnotists, and they would giggle at how blatant she is, until they started to cry when they saw she was seriously doing this to soccer moms with no training in these areas. Then a few of them who are greedy, would join her in business. (Stever Robbins, for example).
People read criticism like this, and it can help them make informed choices. Just saying "she can't touch me" is actually a form of denial. She can touch people, and she knows how to do it.
People need to read the contracts, and the elements of the LGAT seminars, and study up on persuasion tactics. But even then, you can still get DUPED. Anyone who thinks they are untouchable is just being arrogant. This is tricky and slippery and dangerous stuff.
Byron Katie is quite skilled at these methods, and that has been proven over and over again. Even just in her construction of double-bind sentences, as has been shown.
99% of the people who go to these LGAT seminars have no idea of what is being done to them. This is not taught anywhere yet, so almost no one knows anything about it.
Also, its not all about Byron Katie, as many people do the same things she is doing.
So its about a general education as well.
These LGAT seminars make billions a year in many areas. The public has almost no idea of what is going on.
Some of us who have been though countless LGAT's, most of them done for research, know how powerful they are. We have seen regular people turned inside out, flipped into outright mania and psychosis, and spend thousands on a credit card, even sell their homes and go bankrupt with some deeper scheme they get lured into.
The worst thing people can do, other than denying these Gurus are anything other than Spiritual Teachers, is to ignore them. Smiling politely at Byron Katie and Werner Erhard and PSI Seminars, Landmark, Scientology, and all of the LGAT groups, is probably the worst thing one could do, other than endorse them and market them.
People need to speak up, and point out publically what they are doing to people.
Ignorance is not bliss.
On the positive side, learning about all these techniques is very interesting, and it can help in many areas of one's everyday life. Even people who sell cars and houses, and "financial instruments" are learning some of these methods these days from sales seminars and books. So its smart to know what's going on.
It can also help in keeping people safe in the future from another Guru wolf in a different brand of sheeps clothing.
Knowledge is power, and that is why they keep this knowledge hidden from their public.
We need 100x more public education than we have now. The public is almost completely unaware of what goes on in these LGAT seminars, and the advanced methods of these new age Gurus.
Quote
bluesky
I think its really important, if only for her victims sake, to not empower Katie by proxy.
By attributing all this skill and deftness to her, her programs etc...you do actually imply she has some sort of 'special ability' to hypnotize people..when in reality, ANY therapeutic hypnotist will tell you people will only go so far as THEY *choose* to go when it comes to hypnosis...EVEN the simpleminded..even after prolonged induction....the will, often devoid of the conscious self's presence or intent, wins out every time.
So you cant, without prolonged suffering and causal trauma milestones preexistent, simply 'reprogram' a person. You can convince them you have for a while..but even then the natural state of the mind itself will eventually reject any premise that doesn't fulfill the minds obligations to itself.
So by repeating over and over that she can do xyz..is a false and 'katie empowering' statement..no she cant..you can choose to believe she can but in reality SHE CANT do a damn thing - it all happens inside your mind.....that is and unless YOU give her that power and permission to affect you and your thoughts.
Attempting to undermine her and instead empowering her this way, albeit with good intent sure, still leaves you buying into her dynamics, dancing to her tune.. and you end up buying into her program-of-convenience without realizing it.
Reality shows that she's a flim flam woman pure and simple, one who has engaged in a personal psychodrama and uses denial as a means to cope with her traumatic life. She thinks she has learnt something from her experience...contrary to her actions which show she hasn't. She's set herself up a nice little win-win self delusion paradox..she wins if you go..she wins if you don't...so the only way to really stop her is to ignore her entirely...just like John Pearl etc..accept that these kinds of energy and spirit predators are out there...that they come..they go..and the best you can do sometimes is just nod and smile politely..and be the one who passes by following your OWN path.
....
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2009 06:01AM by The Anticult.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
bluesky
()
Date: February 18, 2009 07:11AM
"these are not fully informed choices and it certainly doesn't excuse the perpetrator. "
I wasn't saying that, in fact If you examine the only other post I've written, I spoke directly about that issue and its impact and shared my feelings on being a victim and the emotional reaction I had with the whole 'blame the victim' rhetoric that Katie has going on.
I took care not to imply that perpetrators were anything less than responsible for their actions here as I *have* been a victim in the past and know how easy it is to get sucked in or find yourself suddenly trapped in and how much effort abusers have to make in order to abuse - which imply's conscious intent, accountability, responsibility.
I have recovered my own sensibilities though - enough to see how the con works internally, where I can do something about it, not just in the external structure which I am powerless to alter or change.
I say powerless to change because I do know the dynamic she has going on and I know that if I stood there with an anti-katie banner at one of her events that would only empower her more. It would just draw more attention to her and thus more followers. What you resists, persists.
I still believe very strongly, that knowing your own mind and where your making your own choices is the key to overcoming these predators and to not making yourself a target. Being informed of how the con works is good but unless you can actively choose not to buy into it..your just as at risk as someone not informed at all. Since I have taken a more active role in self responsibility Ive managed to deflect several attempts to coerce me and now I don't get approached at all. That's not supposition or speculation, thats the truth of the reality of my life.
I have accepted that there is never going to be a time where I have *all* the information to make choices..just ask any parent...and its true that people will go make the damn foolish choice anyway regardless of the information, just ask any smoker. It's also true that self will can be manipulated very easily and very efficiently...and just try stopping diarrhea next time you have it and you can see how little power self will actually has in a crisis. I am just saying that a bad choice or mind control situation isn't permanent. And you can fight back..you just need to start within. You *can* work to empower your own choices and learn when and how your empowering the influence of others over your own thoughts and mind. Thats deprogramming 101 and I am not sure why you have a problem with me saying that.
To say you can't change that empowerment dynamic within yourself and that they will always be bigger and better skilled than you is misleading. It is possible to learn to make better wiser choices, get better skills. Anything less just makes victims stay victims longer imo. I know this for a personal truth as I was a victim for a very long time and the only thing that has changed in me has been my attitude towards personal responsibility. To continue to empower the perpetrator and ignore the victims/my own ability and responsibility is just self defeatist to me...it was self defeatist to me.
I would also like to say that I do know a little about coercive techniques having been a victim of military and ritual religious abuse from infancy to 27yrs of age. Yet even that coercion, that deliberate, technical technologically supported mental emotional and physical trauma, even that didn't give them power over *my* will and mind permanently.
I grew up. My mind grew, I over came even that. My own mind fought back all by itself, and recognizing that and joining in with that natural recovery process was crucial. I have since reclaimed my life and personal authority within myself today and I haven't looked back. I know what they did, how they did it, and I live with many affects and triggers still today. I just accept that I could not have stopped them, but I can decide and choose how I will react and respond to them and the affects of them within me, today.
This isn't some flippant statement made by a ignorant child. Its taken me years to get to this point.
I have reached it. It is possible.
Once free of the physical dynamics of my childhood and finding myself re-victimized time and time again, I had to learn. And I guess my experiences in that way have helped if not forced me to grow up and stop blaming others for situations I found myself in and have forced me to see how I was making myself available to any tom dick or guru.
One of the benefits of being traumatized into MPD was that a certain part of my mind was shielded by my consciousness, so even as a child I could watch what they were doing, could see how, and could secretly choose to believe differently to the lies of the programmed parts. Perhaps it was just that that made my recovery possible..I will never know.
I'm not going to apologize for my recovery though, or for saying that victims can and do need to take active responsibility for themselves. Its not blaming us as victims its *empowering us* to act in our own defense. I know it was only just that that saved my life.
If others want to continue to empower and enable perpetrators who in daily are as weak as p**s when you take away their toys and tools, and to continue to choose to say that the victim hasn't the power to overcome them and grow up and away from the need to be led by others, then again, thats their choice...one they make for themselves and I'm not responsible for it or to them.
As I said, I'm no psych. I'm just a survivor and maybe I know nothing about anything else except how to survive them. I made an assumption that that information would be useful here. I was wrong and I apologize for that.
I accept that this post may never make it to the board. If it does or doesn't, please keep in mind that I am not attacking your efforts, on the contrary I applaud them and I would just like to see more discussion and honest information on what it takes to recover from cult abuse.
regards
bluesky
I wasn't saying that, in fact If you examine the only other post I've written, I spoke directly about that issue and its impact and shared my feelings on being a victim and the emotional reaction I had with the whole 'blame the victim' rhetoric that Katie has going on.
I took care not to imply that perpetrators were anything less than responsible for their actions here as I *have* been a victim in the past and know how easy it is to get sucked in or find yourself suddenly trapped in and how much effort abusers have to make in order to abuse - which imply's conscious intent, accountability, responsibility.
I have recovered my own sensibilities though - enough to see how the con works internally, where I can do something about it, not just in the external structure which I am powerless to alter or change.
I say powerless to change because I do know the dynamic she has going on and I know that if I stood there with an anti-katie banner at one of her events that would only empower her more. It would just draw more attention to her and thus more followers. What you resists, persists.
I still believe very strongly, that knowing your own mind and where your making your own choices is the key to overcoming these predators and to not making yourself a target. Being informed of how the con works is good but unless you can actively choose not to buy into it..your just as at risk as someone not informed at all. Since I have taken a more active role in self responsibility Ive managed to deflect several attempts to coerce me and now I don't get approached at all. That's not supposition or speculation, thats the truth of the reality of my life.
I have accepted that there is never going to be a time where I have *all* the information to make choices..just ask any parent...and its true that people will go make the damn foolish choice anyway regardless of the information, just ask any smoker. It's also true that self will can be manipulated very easily and very efficiently...and just try stopping diarrhea next time you have it and you can see how little power self will actually has in a crisis. I am just saying that a bad choice or mind control situation isn't permanent. And you can fight back..you just need to start within. You *can* work to empower your own choices and learn when and how your empowering the influence of others over your own thoughts and mind. Thats deprogramming 101 and I am not sure why you have a problem with me saying that.
To say you can't change that empowerment dynamic within yourself and that they will always be bigger and better skilled than you is misleading. It is possible to learn to make better wiser choices, get better skills. Anything less just makes victims stay victims longer imo. I know this for a personal truth as I was a victim for a very long time and the only thing that has changed in me has been my attitude towards personal responsibility. To continue to empower the perpetrator and ignore the victims/my own ability and responsibility is just self defeatist to me...it was self defeatist to me.
I would also like to say that I do know a little about coercive techniques having been a victim of military and ritual religious abuse from infancy to 27yrs of age. Yet even that coercion, that deliberate, technical technologically supported mental emotional and physical trauma, even that didn't give them power over *my* will and mind permanently.
I grew up. My mind grew, I over came even that. My own mind fought back all by itself, and recognizing that and joining in with that natural recovery process was crucial. I have since reclaimed my life and personal authority within myself today and I haven't looked back. I know what they did, how they did it, and I live with many affects and triggers still today. I just accept that I could not have stopped them, but I can decide and choose how I will react and respond to them and the affects of them within me, today.
This isn't some flippant statement made by a ignorant child. Its taken me years to get to this point.
I have reached it. It is possible.
Once free of the physical dynamics of my childhood and finding myself re-victimized time and time again, I had to learn. And I guess my experiences in that way have helped if not forced me to grow up and stop blaming others for situations I found myself in and have forced me to see how I was making myself available to any tom dick or guru.
One of the benefits of being traumatized into MPD was that a certain part of my mind was shielded by my consciousness, so even as a child I could watch what they were doing, could see how, and could secretly choose to believe differently to the lies of the programmed parts. Perhaps it was just that that made my recovery possible..I will never know.
I'm not going to apologize for my recovery though, or for saying that victims can and do need to take active responsibility for themselves. Its not blaming us as victims its *empowering us* to act in our own defense. I know it was only just that that saved my life.
If others want to continue to empower and enable perpetrators who in daily are as weak as p**s when you take away their toys and tools, and to continue to choose to say that the victim hasn't the power to overcome them and grow up and away from the need to be led by others, then again, thats their choice...one they make for themselves and I'm not responsible for it or to them.
As I said, I'm no psych. I'm just a survivor and maybe I know nothing about anything else except how to survive them. I made an assumption that that information would be useful here. I was wrong and I apologize for that.
I accept that this post may never make it to the board. If it does or doesn't, please keep in mind that I am not attacking your efforts, on the contrary I applaud them and I would just like to see more discussion and honest information on what it takes to recover from cult abuse.
regards
bluesky
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: February 18, 2009 07:23AM
bluesky;
Sorry, but you are still blaming the victim and it seems quite a bit of the programming is still rattling around in your head.
You don't seem to understand much about coercive persuasion techniques.
Maybe you should spend some time studying the subject.
Protesting the abuse of perpetrators of abuse can be quite "empowering."
Allowing them to get away with it without protest, can be seen as enabling.
Sorry, but you are still blaming the victim and it seems quite a bit of the programming is still rattling around in your head.
You don't seem to understand much about coercive persuasion techniques.
Maybe you should spend some time studying the subject.
Protesting the abuse of perpetrators of abuse can be quite "empowering."
Allowing them to get away with it without protest, can be seen as enabling.
Byron Katie(the Work) Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder(PTSD), suicide
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: February 18, 2009 07:31AM
speaking of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) and Byron Katie and The Work.
Dr. Phil had a program about PTSD. [www.drphil.com]
In every single segment he said he was not diagnosing PTSD, and there was no treatment advice offered, and people should not self-diagnose.
The only referrals offered were to professional organizations.
Why so careful?
Because PTSD is lethal.
PTSD is responsible for countless suicides.
[www.ncptsd.va.gov]
PTSD professionals know how careful they have to be, and even then, sadly, many take their own lives.
But notice what Byron Katie says about PTSD Trauma and The Work, and how they present it.
And notice in the second link, the very very carefully worded testimonial about PTSD, which displays they know the danger of messing with PTSD, but want to put that claim out there, as people with PTSD are desperate.
Also, people have reported that in seminars, she makes much greater claims about trauma and PTSD verbally. What else does she say about trauma in her live seminars?
So here you have Byron Katie, who's own disclaimer says she knows NOTHING about mental health at all, putting out information that The Work can help with PTSD, which is one of the most complex and lethal mental health problems.
If an untrained, or worse, poorly trained person starts messing around with someone with PTSD, without any support for them, then a suicide can easily be triggered.
Why is that "death" clause in the Byron Katie disclaimer?
___________________________________
QUOTE from:
THE SCHOOL FOR THE WORK WITH BYRON KATIE
RELEASE OF LIABILITY
[forum.culteducation.com]
"I acknowledge that I am voluntarily assuming all risks associated with my participation at The School and voluntarily agree to accept any and all risks of injury or death..."
[www.thework.com]
QUOTE:
"War veterans with PTSD and survivors of abuse have proven remarkably able to liberate themselves, through The Work, from years, even decades, of suffering."
PTSD testimonial
[www.thework.com]
Dr. Phil had a program about PTSD. [www.drphil.com]
In every single segment he said he was not diagnosing PTSD, and there was no treatment advice offered, and people should not self-diagnose.
The only referrals offered were to professional organizations.
Why so careful?
Because PTSD is lethal.
PTSD is responsible for countless suicides.
[www.ncptsd.va.gov]
PTSD professionals know how careful they have to be, and even then, sadly, many take their own lives.
But notice what Byron Katie says about PTSD Trauma and The Work, and how they present it.
And notice in the second link, the very very carefully worded testimonial about PTSD, which displays they know the danger of messing with PTSD, but want to put that claim out there, as people with PTSD are desperate.
Also, people have reported that in seminars, she makes much greater claims about trauma and PTSD verbally. What else does she say about trauma in her live seminars?
So here you have Byron Katie, who's own disclaimer says she knows NOTHING about mental health at all, putting out information that The Work can help with PTSD, which is one of the most complex and lethal mental health problems.
If an untrained, or worse, poorly trained person starts messing around with someone with PTSD, without any support for them, then a suicide can easily be triggered.
Why is that "death" clause in the Byron Katie disclaimer?
___________________________________
QUOTE from:
THE SCHOOL FOR THE WORK WITH BYRON KATIE
RELEASE OF LIABILITY
[forum.culteducation.com]
"I acknowledge that I am voluntarily assuming all risks associated with my participation at The School and voluntarily agree to accept any and all risks of injury or death..."
[www.thework.com]
QUOTE:
"War veterans with PTSD and survivors of abuse have proven remarkably able to liberate themselves, through The Work, from years, even decades, of suffering."
PTSD testimonial
[www.thework.com]
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and DeNile is not just a river in Egypt.
Posted by:
bluesky
()
Date: February 18, 2009 07:58AM
Given I am or was 'the victim', how exactly am I 'blaming the victim' aka myself, by taking responsibility for myself and making choices that protect me from sheep-think and the Byron Katies of the world?
I am not being facetious, I would really like to understand your process of reasoning there.
My reality opposed to your opinion, is that I'm not blaming myself. In fact I am stating emphatically that I had absolutely no control at all over what happened to me at the time - I work hard at accepting that and accepting that the people who abused me are the ones who are 100% responsible and accountable for their actions. I know I am not the one with the disease. I was just the unfortunate recipient of the terrible results of someone else's disease. Thats the point!
I am just not going waste time sitting in that blame blame blame dynamic, when I can be working on better things.
You want me to write that I blame katie et al ?
OK..
I blame them.
Do you feel better? Has it helped? Was that useful ?
The way I see it, Katie's mob are as accountable and responsible and 'to blame' for their choices and actions, as I'm responsible accountable and to 'blame' for mine today. Anything less IS denial.
I am adult now..and that title comes with realities I might wish to ignore..but cant avoid.
That was the point I was trying to make re katie byrons cult in my first post...that abdicating that adulthood and its responsibilities whether thats undertaken or effected through hypnosis NLP, external PERSUASION or coercion or not, means that this abdication of control and responsibility is still something that affects your ability to exercise CHOICE - to say NO. So it is still not a solely external process, or solely a " they did to to me' thing. It starts and ends internal to the individual..and thats where defense and recovery needs to be addressed and time spent, not on blame.
You seem to be saying that being an aware personally accountable and responsible adult is not possible, or is a bad thing or a form of denial.
In find that very odd. Very sad.
In regards to Katie Byron specifically, these aren't defenseless children going to her seminars..they are adults..yes, many have trauma histories, but they are still adult survivors of that history...and in order to stop the flood of new victims to their traps, then they need to be reminded they are adults and survivors and imo, need to be INFORMED that as adults, they are as accountable to consequences of their actions and choices as you or I are.
Tranquilizing or cushioning them from their own accountability to themselves is exactly what Katie does to ensnare them!
and re: "Allowing them to get away with it without protest, can be seen as enabling."
I AM a walking living breathing protest...one FOR the recovery from abuse.
And lastly, taking a cheap shot about my past to make a point now was rather low. I know what remnants of my past still affect me and I am informed about my own fragilities and minds dysfunctions thanks. With that and seeing this will only descend into a flame war, I can say thanks and bye. Best of luck to you. You obviously posses far superior intelligences to my own.
bluesky
I am not being facetious, I would really like to understand your process of reasoning there.
My reality opposed to your opinion, is that I'm not blaming myself. In fact I am stating emphatically that I had absolutely no control at all over what happened to me at the time - I work hard at accepting that and accepting that the people who abused me are the ones who are 100% responsible and accountable for their actions. I know I am not the one with the disease. I was just the unfortunate recipient of the terrible results of someone else's disease. Thats the point!
I am just not going waste time sitting in that blame blame blame dynamic, when I can be working on better things.
You want me to write that I blame katie et al ?
OK..
I blame them.
Do you feel better? Has it helped? Was that useful ?
The way I see it, Katie's mob are as accountable and responsible and 'to blame' for their choices and actions, as I'm responsible accountable and to 'blame' for mine today. Anything less IS denial.
I am adult now..and that title comes with realities I might wish to ignore..but cant avoid.
That was the point I was trying to make re katie byrons cult in my first post...that abdicating that adulthood and its responsibilities whether thats undertaken or effected through hypnosis NLP, external PERSUASION or coercion or not, means that this abdication of control and responsibility is still something that affects your ability to exercise CHOICE - to say NO. So it is still not a solely external process, or solely a " they did to to me' thing. It starts and ends internal to the individual..and thats where defense and recovery needs to be addressed and time spent, not on blame.
You seem to be saying that being an aware personally accountable and responsible adult is not possible, or is a bad thing or a form of denial.
In find that very odd. Very sad.
In regards to Katie Byron specifically, these aren't defenseless children going to her seminars..they are adults..yes, many have trauma histories, but they are still adult survivors of that history...and in order to stop the flood of new victims to their traps, then they need to be reminded they are adults and survivors and imo, need to be INFORMED that as adults, they are as accountable to consequences of their actions and choices as you or I are.
Tranquilizing or cushioning them from their own accountability to themselves is exactly what Katie does to ensnare them!
and re: "Allowing them to get away with it without protest, can be seen as enabling."
I AM a walking living breathing protest...one FOR the recovery from abuse.
And lastly, taking a cheap shot about my past to make a point now was rather low. I know what remnants of my past still affect me and I am informed about my own fragilities and minds dysfunctions thanks. With that and seeing this will only descend into a flame war, I can say thanks and bye. Best of luck to you. You obviously posses far superior intelligences to my own.
bluesky
Re: Byron Katie(the Work) Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder(PTSD), suicide
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: February 18, 2009 08:03AM
even just exposing the precise methods of the new wage LGAT Guru is very helpful.
Its like Toto the dog in the wizard of Oz. [en.wikipedia.org]) Everyone is mesmerized by The Great Oz, but Toto is not impressed, and pulls back the curtain, to show a little man hiding behind the curtain doing his tricks. Of course, the Great Oz says..."ignore that little man behind the curtain". But Toto doesn't listen.
So exposing the man being the curtain, like Toto did, is the same thing as exposing the techniques used by Byron Katie, and countless others just like her.
Byron Katie also tells people to ignore the woman being the curtain, she even says she doesn't exist!
Of course, exposing the facts, is only one part of the process of working towards recovery from a cultic involvement.
But knowing what they did, and exactly HOW they did it, is very helpful.
As far as turning the other cheek, and being a good little girl and not making trouble, well, perhaps its better to offer BK to kiss the other cheek, and not the one on your face.
Its like Toto the dog in the wizard of Oz. [en.wikipedia.org]) Everyone is mesmerized by The Great Oz, but Toto is not impressed, and pulls back the curtain, to show a little man hiding behind the curtain doing his tricks. Of course, the Great Oz says..."ignore that little man behind the curtain". But Toto doesn't listen.
So exposing the man being the curtain, like Toto did, is the same thing as exposing the techniques used by Byron Katie, and countless others just like her.
Byron Katie also tells people to ignore the woman being the curtain, she even says she doesn't exist!
Of course, exposing the facts, is only one part of the process of working towards recovery from a cultic involvement.
But knowing what they did, and exactly HOW they did it, is very helpful.
As far as turning the other cheek, and being a good little girl and not making trouble, well, perhaps its better to offer BK to kiss the other cheek, and not the one on your face.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
bluesky
()
Date: February 18, 2009 08:22AM
"Sorry, but you are still blaming the victim and it seems quite a bit of the programming is still rattling around in your head.
Pardon me for saying so, but you are the least informed person as to what is going on in my head.
Presumption, just like persuasion is a self deceit, and an easily identifiable form of manipulation.
"You don't seem to understand much about coercive persuasion techniques."
I think I know more than you're prepared to give me credit for.
"Maybe you should spend some time studying the subject."
Having both lived it and studied it. I am as aware as I can be today.
"Protesting the abuse of perpetrators of abuse can be quite "empowering."
It can also lead you back into obsessional thinking about them, and the abuse itself, which ultimately can be counterproductive to efforts to regain your mind body and spirit from them. The risk of this kind of obsession is already well documented - child abuse victims becoming perpetrators etc..
Wasn't it Voltaire or some other insightful human that said when you become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy?
I prefer to focus my obsessions and efforts and energies on personal recovery. A choice.
blue
Pardon me for saying so, but you are the least informed person as to what is going on in my head.
Presumption, just like persuasion is a self deceit, and an easily identifiable form of manipulation.
"You don't seem to understand much about coercive persuasion techniques."
I think I know more than you're prepared to give me credit for.
"Maybe you should spend some time studying the subject."
Having both lived it and studied it. I am as aware as I can be today.
"Protesting the abuse of perpetrators of abuse can be quite "empowering."
It can also lead you back into obsessional thinking about them, and the abuse itself, which ultimately can be counterproductive to efforts to regain your mind body and spirit from them. The risk of this kind of obsession is already well documented - child abuse victims becoming perpetrators etc..
Wasn't it Voltaire or some other insightful human that said when you become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy?
I prefer to focus my obsessions and efforts and energies on personal recovery. A choice.
blue
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
bluesky
()
Date: February 18, 2009 02:03PM
"99% of the people who go to these LGAT seminars have no idea of what is being done to them. "
And therein lies the problem..people are still *choosing* to go in the first place and ignoring their responsibility to protect and inform themselves before and during their stay.
I am not against informing the public of dangers not one bit...I am just concerned that in the process of doing that, you appear to be setting up these abusers as omnipotent demigods, who are apparently so much bigger than my own mind and choices...when they are not..I'm already long gone with toto!
As a grown up human adult..I know that if I walk into croc infested waters..I cant whine if I get chomped. No matter what make up the croc is wearing or whether I see it or not or its camouflaged or not.. I chose to walk there...no one else is responsible if I got bit.
For me I accept that and take responsibility for the consequences and then choose to make a different decision..walk a different way.
I don't have an anti-cult degree in human sciences..just experience with the effects of the absence of reason and common sense. I have though had the unfortunate distinction of being told by people who are not professionals, that have no idea who I am, that I am in denial ( telling me what I am, diagnosing me, who I am and what I am thinking..(Katie anyone??)
I've had my mental state questioned ( coercive peer pressure at its best) and have had the pleasure of being belittled while being informed I know little about cults and coercive techniques (yet again being told what I know, what I am thinking feeling and the knowledge base I retain).
To top it off..I have been patronized condescended to aka infantilized ( there's that Katieism again) and have had the 'turnaround dynamic' used on me quite openly....and it wasn't in Katie Byron's club house at all..it was right here today!
Anyone can play those 'Katie games' and not even know they are doing it. Coercion is a common human trait. People have been doing it for eons...its not 'new'.
It doesn't mean that the perps aren't responsible for the doing..just as people who consciously choose to go to Katie seminars are responsible for that choice too. I didn't make them go..Katie didn't..you didn't. They made an adult choice to go...and they are as adults, accountable for *that* choice.
You cant win a war by arming supporting and feeding the opposing army...you have to arm and support those that need it..the victims, and imx, cushy cushy emotional dis empowering strategies just don't work. The truth often does...and that truth is pretty simple. That people CAN choose...and that choice is there whether they like it or not or are ignorant of it or not.
For 90% of the people I have spoken to its been the case that they just don't want to make the effort to choose, are afraid to be responsible, or don't know/haven't known what choice is or how to make one and make it stick.
This is why self led education/classes on 'active choice and mature decision making 101' aren't out there..and 'ooh look what the big scary monster did' forums, are proliferating in earnest.
In my experience on this board, and from reading through this thread beginning to end, *I feel* that many people here are actively buying into her game play more than what they think they are...especially by mimicking her tactics to anyone that disagrees with them and their pov. They are doing exactly what she does to her victims to others without even recognizing it and that makes them far more anger than her blatant attempts.
All I said was, that in empowering her with magical wizard like abilities while dis empowering her victims....you're handing the next generation of victims to her on a silver platter...and what a mess I've made huh? All I've dared to claim was that we victims are adult humans too and can learn to make better reasoned choices and look what a fluff Ive raised.
If you guys..the cult busters... don't think victims can make those choices..what hope have they got at all no matter what you write?
I guess so many have just been told they cant think and cant reason and cant make their own minds up for so long by so many well intentioned people seemingly intent on disabling everyone but themselves..that they've forgotten that they are human beings.
I haven't...and I'm not about to any time soon...so maybe all I can do is focus on my own outcomes...alone if necessary...perhaps preferably.
Thank you for your considered reply....and apologies for my emotionally exhausted one.
bluesky.
And therein lies the problem..people are still *choosing* to go in the first place and ignoring their responsibility to protect and inform themselves before and during their stay.
I am not against informing the public of dangers not one bit...I am just concerned that in the process of doing that, you appear to be setting up these abusers as omnipotent demigods, who are apparently so much bigger than my own mind and choices...when they are not..I'm already long gone with toto!
As a grown up human adult..I know that if I walk into croc infested waters..I cant whine if I get chomped. No matter what make up the croc is wearing or whether I see it or not or its camouflaged or not.. I chose to walk there...no one else is responsible if I got bit.
For me I accept that and take responsibility for the consequences and then choose to make a different decision..walk a different way.
I don't have an anti-cult degree in human sciences..just experience with the effects of the absence of reason and common sense. I have though had the unfortunate distinction of being told by people who are not professionals, that have no idea who I am, that I am in denial ( telling me what I am, diagnosing me, who I am and what I am thinking..(Katie anyone??)
I've had my mental state questioned ( coercive peer pressure at its best) and have had the pleasure of being belittled while being informed I know little about cults and coercive techniques (yet again being told what I know, what I am thinking feeling and the knowledge base I retain).
To top it off..I have been patronized condescended to aka infantilized ( there's that Katieism again) and have had the 'turnaround dynamic' used on me quite openly....and it wasn't in Katie Byron's club house at all..it was right here today!
Anyone can play those 'Katie games' and not even know they are doing it. Coercion is a common human trait. People have been doing it for eons...its not 'new'.
It doesn't mean that the perps aren't responsible for the doing..just as people who consciously choose to go to Katie seminars are responsible for that choice too. I didn't make them go..Katie didn't..you didn't. They made an adult choice to go...and they are as adults, accountable for *that* choice.
You cant win a war by arming supporting and feeding the opposing army...you have to arm and support those that need it..the victims, and imx, cushy cushy emotional dis empowering strategies just don't work. The truth often does...and that truth is pretty simple. That people CAN choose...and that choice is there whether they like it or not or are ignorant of it or not.
For 90% of the people I have spoken to its been the case that they just don't want to make the effort to choose, are afraid to be responsible, or don't know/haven't known what choice is or how to make one and make it stick.
This is why self led education/classes on 'active choice and mature decision making 101' aren't out there..and 'ooh look what the big scary monster did' forums, are proliferating in earnest.
In my experience on this board, and from reading through this thread beginning to end, *I feel* that many people here are actively buying into her game play more than what they think they are...especially by mimicking her tactics to anyone that disagrees with them and their pov. They are doing exactly what she does to her victims to others without even recognizing it and that makes them far more anger than her blatant attempts.
All I said was, that in empowering her with magical wizard like abilities while dis empowering her victims....you're handing the next generation of victims to her on a silver platter...and what a mess I've made huh? All I've dared to claim was that we victims are adult humans too and can learn to make better reasoned choices and look what a fluff Ive raised.
If you guys..the cult busters... don't think victims can make those choices..what hope have they got at all no matter what you write?
I guess so many have just been told they cant think and cant reason and cant make their own minds up for so long by so many well intentioned people seemingly intent on disabling everyone but themselves..that they've forgotten that they are human beings.
I haven't...and I'm not about to any time soon...so maybe all I can do is focus on my own outcomes...alone if necessary...perhaps preferably.
Thank you for your considered reply....and apologies for my emotionally exhausted one.
bluesky.
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