Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: January 25, 2011 02:16AM
On The Uses of Disgust
BK doenst just use cockroaches for her story. Apparently she uses other stuff too.
"At September 28, 2010 , (name omitted), M.D. said...
What an awesome story. (Not the part about Decibel being scared or doused with Coca Cola, I mean. The part about discovering our wrong assumptions.) I agree with Rose, it IS very human of us to mentally wander into Defending ourselves. Our outrage at Decibel's suffering brought us quickly to find a focus, a villain.
Byron Katie tells a similar story about going into a bathroom, meeting a woman on the way out, and finding the toilet seat wet. She's filled with anger and imagines the former occupant is a horrible person. Then while cleaning it up, she flushes, and the water shoots right out of the toilet. It was wet because it was damaged, not because of the other person. Katie tells this story to remind us how quick our minds are to tell us stories that explain what we see--and how often we just don't know. We make so many assumptions that make us sad or angry. When we get p.o.'d by life, what we need to do first, is cool it, and wonder what's really going on. Just like you did. "
[godsrbored.blogspot.com]
Lemme tell you, my girlpals encounter lots of toilet seats that are 'moist' and its because of other women's pee, and their failure to wipe it up, NOT because of toilet malfunction.
BK is finding ways to turn it around. Her stories are not what they seem.
Butt...thats a Byron Katie story. Study The Anticult's analyses of Katie's Washing Machine story
[forum.culteducation.com]
BK doenst just use cockroaches for her story. Apparently she uses other stuff too.
"At September 28, 2010 , (name omitted), M.D. said...
What an awesome story. (Not the part about Decibel being scared or doused with Coca Cola, I mean. The part about discovering our wrong assumptions.) I agree with Rose, it IS very human of us to mentally wander into Defending ourselves. Our outrage at Decibel's suffering brought us quickly to find a focus, a villain.
Byron Katie tells a similar story about going into a bathroom, meeting a woman on the way out, and finding the toilet seat wet. She's filled with anger and imagines the former occupant is a horrible person. Then while cleaning it up, she flushes, and the water shoots right out of the toilet. It was wet because it was damaged, not because of the other person. Katie tells this story to remind us how quick our minds are to tell us stories that explain what we see--and how often we just don't know. We make so many assumptions that make us sad or angry. When we get p.o.'d by life, what we need to do first, is cool it, and wonder what's really going on. Just like you did. "
[godsrbored.blogspot.com]
Lemme tell you, my girlpals encounter lots of toilet seats that are 'moist' and its because of other women's pee, and their failure to wipe it up, NOT because of toilet malfunction.
BK is finding ways to turn it around. Her stories are not what they seem.
Butt...thats a Byron Katie story. Study The Anticult's analyses of Katie's Washing Machine story
[forum.culteducation.com]
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
WineGuy
()
Date: January 26, 2011 11:08AM
I think this is a very useful website. Whenever I hear of some new spiritual group one of my friends mentions I have done quick search here to see what is up with them. I think I have used this site to get ammo against IMPACT, Abraham-Hicks and The Secret. I never really need such info for myself as I am able to get a sense pretty quick who is legit, but often my friends will not just take my word for it.
I thought I would post on this plus a couple other threads because I think in some cases the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater. The one teacher that comes to mind here is Eckhart Tolle, who I think is a fairly useful teacher whose actual teachings are far from cult-like and I thought I would try to give some responses to theories here so that there is some balance here when people consider him. (I am also going to comment on the old Advaita thread, as I am familiar with most every teacher in that group, some good, some not so good.)
There are several comments that he uses a "large group" technique to "hypnotize" his audience. There is no evidence of this. Having actually seen him, I can tell you it is completely ridiculous. First, when you are one of the most, in fact THE most popular such guru out there, you will always draw large crowds, it is part and parcel to being that popular. He can't win! If he asks questions and brings people on stage then he is using anchoring and "sparkly eyes" and if he stays at a distance he sets himself up as "untouchable." Who can avoid one or the other? Those claiming he uses this technique miss a few things...
1. 99.9% of his fans have never seen him in person, so it is an error to think he gets his followers by the large group method. Virtually all of them are fans because they read his books, therefore it is not supported by numbers that he "hypnotizes" his followers. Unless you believe 99+% can be hypnotized by his voice without ever seeing or hearing him!
2. He rarely holds any events at all. Unlike Bryon Katie who has 7 events in July of 2010 alone (I took this fact from this thread), Tolle has held a whopping...count em.... 4 events in 3 years. That's it. Two were simple talks and two were weekend events. When you are that popular and you are that hard to see, people will find a way to attend your event. There is nothing unusual about that. So it is hard to claim he is making money off his audience via talks when he is rarely having them. I bet 90% of his revs come from books and CDs, if not more.
3. It is simply not the case that he talks in some hypnotizing monotone. His talks are actually quite funny and he inflects his voice more than you might think. While he is not an animated kind of guy, his voice is FAR less droning that say... Carl Sagan.
4. He has no "following." He has no "organization." When I saw a post with the (I am summarizing) "10 Things to look out for in cult leaders" he had between 0 of them to maybe...maybe.... 2 of the 10." He does not care who follows him or not. He has no expensive "system" to sell, he is very open to all sorts of methods to spirituality...Buddhism, Taoism, Course In Miracles, Sufism, Christianity.... the list goes on. He NEVER embarrasses people who question his views.
Kim Eng may be the source of some of the odd things like the pictures of him you can buy for $6 on his website. Ugh. Who knows. But his teachings are not some new thing, they are the same things mystics have taught going back 4000 years, especially within Advaita, Zen, Sufism and Taoism. Even if you decide to discount him altogether, I can point you to the exact same teachings from many other VERY respected teachers that go back to before The Dark Ages and as recent as the 1980s. If you do a Google search of "Eckhart Tolle Fraud" you will find virtually nothing solid on him at all, just people saying they don't like his teachings. There is just the one person here on this site who apparently knew him some time ago and feels he is now driven for money. Fair enough. But what do we know about that person? Nothing. Pretty hard to discount someone on one person's feelings. Even the New York Times and The Independent (UK) seem to say his personal history seems to "check out." Also, I have seen his teachings quite mis-represented here. If someone wants to ask what is meant by "X", I can probably shed light on it better than most. Like I said.... his teachings are not new.
People here are obviously free to make up their mind, but I sense there is no one who is not above suspicion and everyone is thrown in the same garbage can. I think it would be unfortunate for someone to just write off Tolle on the rather flimsy evidence presented here. You could do a lot worse than Eckhart Tolle. I know. Good luck everyone!
I thought I would post on this plus a couple other threads because I think in some cases the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater. The one teacher that comes to mind here is Eckhart Tolle, who I think is a fairly useful teacher whose actual teachings are far from cult-like and I thought I would try to give some responses to theories here so that there is some balance here when people consider him. (I am also going to comment on the old Advaita thread, as I am familiar with most every teacher in that group, some good, some not so good.)
There are several comments that he uses a "large group" technique to "hypnotize" his audience. There is no evidence of this. Having actually seen him, I can tell you it is completely ridiculous. First, when you are one of the most, in fact THE most popular such guru out there, you will always draw large crowds, it is part and parcel to being that popular. He can't win! If he asks questions and brings people on stage then he is using anchoring and "sparkly eyes" and if he stays at a distance he sets himself up as "untouchable." Who can avoid one or the other? Those claiming he uses this technique miss a few things...
1. 99.9% of his fans have never seen him in person, so it is an error to think he gets his followers by the large group method. Virtually all of them are fans because they read his books, therefore it is not supported by numbers that he "hypnotizes" his followers. Unless you believe 99+% can be hypnotized by his voice without ever seeing or hearing him!
2. He rarely holds any events at all. Unlike Bryon Katie who has 7 events in July of 2010 alone (I took this fact from this thread), Tolle has held a whopping...count em.... 4 events in 3 years. That's it. Two were simple talks and two were weekend events. When you are that popular and you are that hard to see, people will find a way to attend your event. There is nothing unusual about that. So it is hard to claim he is making money off his audience via talks when he is rarely having them. I bet 90% of his revs come from books and CDs, if not more.
3. It is simply not the case that he talks in some hypnotizing monotone. His talks are actually quite funny and he inflects his voice more than you might think. While he is not an animated kind of guy, his voice is FAR less droning that say... Carl Sagan.
4. He has no "following." He has no "organization." When I saw a post with the (I am summarizing) "10 Things to look out for in cult leaders" he had between 0 of them to maybe...maybe.... 2 of the 10." He does not care who follows him or not. He has no expensive "system" to sell, he is very open to all sorts of methods to spirituality...Buddhism, Taoism, Course In Miracles, Sufism, Christianity.... the list goes on. He NEVER embarrasses people who question his views.
Kim Eng may be the source of some of the odd things like the pictures of him you can buy for $6 on his website. Ugh. Who knows. But his teachings are not some new thing, they are the same things mystics have taught going back 4000 years, especially within Advaita, Zen, Sufism and Taoism. Even if you decide to discount him altogether, I can point you to the exact same teachings from many other VERY respected teachers that go back to before The Dark Ages and as recent as the 1980s. If you do a Google search of "Eckhart Tolle Fraud" you will find virtually nothing solid on him at all, just people saying they don't like his teachings. There is just the one person here on this site who apparently knew him some time ago and feels he is now driven for money. Fair enough. But what do we know about that person? Nothing. Pretty hard to discount someone on one person's feelings. Even the New York Times and The Independent (UK) seem to say his personal history seems to "check out." Also, I have seen his teachings quite mis-represented here. If someone wants to ask what is meant by "X", I can probably shed light on it better than most. Like I said.... his teachings are not new.
People here are obviously free to make up their mind, but I sense there is no one who is not above suspicion and everyone is thrown in the same garbage can. I think it would be unfortunate for someone to just write off Tolle on the rather flimsy evidence presented here. You could do a lot worse than Eckhart Tolle. I know. Good luck everyone!
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: January 26, 2011 11:11PM
Quote
People here are obviously free to make up their mind, but I sense there is no one who is not above suspicion and everyone is thrown in the same garbage can.
[forum.culteducation.com]
Friend, this message board is not for the purposes of proslytizing.
Quote
Andrew Cohen.... when your own mother writes a book blasting you, you know you are messed up. This guy has a huge ego, completely misses the point, and often berates those who question him.
If anyone has any questions about Advaita's teachings, feel free to ask and I will answer the best I can. But not all Adviata teachers are created equal. Hope this helps some people out.
Here we provide a distraction free space so that gurus can be examined not as something special, but as products of sales and marketing--making them no different from Macdonald's Happy Meals.
Those who have had spiritual indigestion from Mac Guru's such as Tolle, can come here and find out whats in the grub that they were not told about when encouraged to sit down and eat it.
Kinda takes the magic out of it, by seeing this type of guru as a product of marketing and PR.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: January 26, 2011 11:29PM
Plus, Andrew Cohen, whom you appear to disapprove of, has interviewed Eckhart Tolle more than once, a willingness to associate with someone whose trouble record is very well documented.
In Issue 18 of What Enlightenment? Magazine Fall/Winter 2000, magazine (currently has the title Enlightenext), page 46, there is a dialogue between Andrew Cohen and Eckhart Tolle entitled Ripples on the Surface of being.
It appears that this 2000 inteview has been reprinted quite frequently, generating lots of Google citations that make it seem there is a close association with Tolle and Cohen.
This 'ripples' dialogue took place 3 to 4 years after Luna Tarlo published her expose of her son Andrew Cohen's descent from enlightenment into guru cruelty--The Mother of God
In 2004 Andre van der Braak published Enlightenment Blues, which confirmed much of what Luna Tarlo (Cohen's mother) described in her memoir, The Mother of God, published in 1995/6
Within the past 18 months, Bill Yenner has written a most important book,
American Guru, listing Cohen's track record, and just as important, also tracing the entire cultic milieu of spiritual teachers who have been willing to enable Cohen in his very hurtful career.
Given all this, Eckhart Tolle has been willing to do interviews with Cohen.
It calls enlightentment itself into question when one who is considered awakened or enlightened is willing to associate himself in interviews with a person who generates the kind of witness accounts that Andrew Cohen has done.
See the What Enlightenment? Blog
[whatenlightenment.blogspot.com]
American Guru website
[www.americanguru.net]
------------------
It would be very nice if today, Eckhart Tolle would put his alleged enlightenment to work and state that he does not approve of the way Andrew Cohen, from many accounts, treats students.
Dr Susan Blackmore did print such a correction on Bill Yenner's American Guru blog. She does not claim enlightenment--but has shown something much harder to find these days than mere enlighenment--activity by a concerned citizen.
[americanguru.net]
Dr Blackmore also wrote an endorsement of Geoffrey Falk's examination of gurus, Stripping the Gurus.
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
Mr Falk was one of the very first and few to examine the cultic milieu centered around Ken Wilber, Adi Da--and Andrew Cohen. His research was meticulous. Mr Falk wrote with heat and anger, but he did this because he had himself served time in a different cult, and his anger was a manifestation of concern for other people's welfare--another manifestation of active citizenship that is in very short supply in the New Age cultic milieu.
[www.google.com]
In Issue 18 of What Enlightenment? Magazine Fall/Winter 2000, magazine (currently has the title Enlightenext), page 46, there is a dialogue between Andrew Cohen and Eckhart Tolle entitled Ripples on the Surface of being.
It appears that this 2000 inteview has been reprinted quite frequently, generating lots of Google citations that make it seem there is a close association with Tolle and Cohen.
This 'ripples' dialogue took place 3 to 4 years after Luna Tarlo published her expose of her son Andrew Cohen's descent from enlightenment into guru cruelty--The Mother of God
In 2004 Andre van der Braak published Enlightenment Blues, which confirmed much of what Luna Tarlo (Cohen's mother) described in her memoir, The Mother of God, published in 1995/6
Within the past 18 months, Bill Yenner has written a most important book,
American Guru, listing Cohen's track record, and just as important, also tracing the entire cultic milieu of spiritual teachers who have been willing to enable Cohen in his very hurtful career.
Given all this, Eckhart Tolle has been willing to do interviews with Cohen.
It calls enlightentment itself into question when one who is considered awakened or enlightened is willing to associate himself in interviews with a person who generates the kind of witness accounts that Andrew Cohen has done.
See the What Enlightenment? Blog
[whatenlightenment.blogspot.com]
American Guru website
[www.americanguru.net]
------------------
It would be very nice if today, Eckhart Tolle would put his alleged enlightenment to work and state that he does not approve of the way Andrew Cohen, from many accounts, treats students.
Dr Susan Blackmore did print such a correction on Bill Yenner's American Guru blog. She does not claim enlightenment--but has shown something much harder to find these days than mere enlighenment--activity by a concerned citizen.
[americanguru.net]
Quote
American Guru is quite sobering. I’d had faint worries about Andrew Cohen and his organization but no idea that things were this terrible. Thank you for writing about your devastating experiences.
–Susan Blackmore, Author of Ten Zen Questions
Dr Blackmore also wrote an endorsement of Geoffrey Falk's examination of gurus, Stripping the Gurus.
Quote
This gripping and disturbing book should be read by anyone who finds themself revering a spiritual teacher. --Susan Blackmore, author of The Meme Machine
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
Mr Falk was one of the very first and few to examine the cultic milieu centered around Ken Wilber, Adi Da--and Andrew Cohen. His research was meticulous. Mr Falk wrote with heat and anger, but he did this because he had himself served time in a different cult, and his anger was a manifestation of concern for other people's welfare--another manifestation of active citizenship that is in very short supply in the New Age cultic milieu.
[www.google.com]
Quote
eckhart tolle, interview with andrew cohenAndrew Cohen: Eckhart, what is your life like? ... Eckhart Tolle: T Yhat was
true in the past, before my book The Power of Now came out. ...
[home.wanadoo.nl] - 39k - Cached - Similar pages
Dialogues with Andrew Cohen: Ken Wilber, Eckhart Tolle, Peter ...Features dialogues between spiritual teacher Andrew Cohen and an array of the
world's leading thinkers, teachers, and mystics including Ken Wilber, Eckhart
...
[www.andrewcohen.org] - 36k - Cached - Similar pages
Andrew Cohen: Evolutionary Enlightenment
An introduction to Andrew Cohen and his contemporary spiritual teachings of Evolutionary Enlightenment
5 min -
[www.youtube.com]
Eckhart Tolle - Interview- Spiritualizing or ...
Extracted from an Eckhart Tolle's interview to Andrew Cohen
6 min -
[www.youtube.com]
Eckhart Tolle: Ripples on the Surface of BeingAn interview with Eckhart Tolle by Andrew Cohen ... ECKHART TOLLE: That was true
in the past, before my book The Power of Now came out. ...
[www.enlightennext.org] - 40k - Cached - Similar pages
An interview with Eckhart Tolle (by Andrew Cohen)Eckhart Tolle is one of my favorite authors/teachers on the topic of stillness/
silence. This is a good interview and I like the part where ...
[www.indiadivine.org] - 42k - Cached - Similar pages
Two Views on Meditation and Enlightenment by Eckhart Tolle and ...Two very different views on enlightenment from two contemporary spiritual
masters - Eckhart Tolle and Andrew Cohen. The first hour of this broadcast is a
...
[diydharma.org] - 38k - Cached - Similar pages
Andrew Cohen: genuine or fake?Andrew Cohen was recommended to me by one of my friends recently and I'm just
reading one of his books, ... Re: Andrew Cohen, Eckhart Tolle, etc... fake. ...
[www.theologyweb.com] - 124k - Cached - Similar pages
An Interview with Eckhart Tolle by Andrew Cohen - Global One TVJan 15, 2011 ... An Interview with Eckhart Tolle by Andrew Cohen Eckhart, what is your life like?
I've heard that you're a bit of a recluse and that you ...
[www.globalone.tv] - 99k - Cached - Similar pages
Eckhart tolle with Andrew cohen ripples on the surface of being ...Jul 27, 2008 ... Eckhart tolle with Andrew cohen ripples on the surface of being audiobook track#
ab0001-08 Eckhart tolle with Andrew cohen ripples on the ...
[www.sulit.com.ph] - 121k - Cached - Similar pages
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: January 26, 2011 11:43PM
Finally (yawn)....if anyone responds by saying
'You seem to be putting a lot of energy into this'
'You seem upset'
'You seem to be bothered..'
All these are standard rhetorical evasions, that everyone seems to learn in the New Age cultic mileu.
'You seem to be putting a lot of energy into this'
'You seem upset'
'You seem to be bothered..'
All these are standard rhetorical evasions, that everyone seems to learn in the New Age cultic mileu.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
WineGuy
()
Date: January 27, 2011 03:09PM
Corboy, I must disagree that this websites purpose is to... "provide a distraction free space so that gurus can be examined not as something special, but as products of sales and marketing--making them no different from Macdonald's Happy Meals."
By that statement you ... again... throw any and all gurus into the meat grinder. Again, this place can do whatever it wants, and like I said, I think this place provides a net positive. But nothing is all-positive and I see many logical fallacies in many posts here, such as "Cum hoc ergo propter hoc," "Circulus in demonstrando,"Argumentum ad ignorantiam" and many others. I see no reason to point all of these out because there is no reason to do so, but that does not mean they are not repeated over and over.
At any rate, I have done what I came here to do, provide some contrary opinion that "all of these people are not the same." Not for those who live for this place, but for the casual person who drops by.
Good night, and good luck.
By that statement you ... again... throw any and all gurus into the meat grinder. Again, this place can do whatever it wants, and like I said, I think this place provides a net positive. But nothing is all-positive and I see many logical fallacies in many posts here, such as "Cum hoc ergo propter hoc," "Circulus in demonstrando,"Argumentum ad ignorantiam" and many others. I see no reason to point all of these out because there is no reason to do so, but that does not mean they are not repeated over and over.
At any rate, I have done what I came here to do, provide some contrary opinion that "all of these people are not the same." Not for those who live for this place, but for the casual person who drops by.
Good night, and good luck.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: January 28, 2011 12:10AM
If you're happy with your guru, this website wont matter.
This site is skeptical and exists to provide a space for persons who are not devotees and and want to study gurus as just one more marketing phenonmena among many.
This site is skeptical and exists to provide a space for persons who are not devotees and and want to study gurus as just one more marketing phenonmena among many.
Re: James Arthur Ray - 2 die at Arizona retreat's sweat lodge
Posted by:
Sparky
()
Date: January 28, 2011 08:59AM
Apparently, Death Ray's lawyers are trying to stop Rick Ross from testifying at his trial:
[blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com]
[blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com]
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: January 29, 2011 12:38AM
Equipment
Acess to a mirror in a well lit room. (Wall mounted mirror is best. Bathroom mirror will do just fine)
One copy of Loving What Is by Byron Katie with Stephen Mitchell
(You will be working from the portrait on the book jacket showing BK wearing a black top, wearing pearl earrings, gazing outwards, hand up and fingers curled under)
Optional:
A pair of pearl or faux pearl earrings.
A dark colored long sleeved sweater or long sleeved T shirt
-----------------
Task:
Studying the portrait, but not gazing at BK's eyes, try and position your face and hand so that you can reproduce, in your mirror, the hand position, finger positions and arm angle, as seen in the book photograph.
Pay very close attention to the angle of BK's wrist, and that area of shadow at the upper wrist just underneath the heel of her hand.
Do your best to curl your fingers and exactly reproduce the hand and arm position in relation to the face and chin.
Do this using your right hand
Do this using your left hand.
-----
How easy was this for you to do?
Would you consider this a 'natural position' after attempting to do this yourself?
-----
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: January 29, 2011 12:41AM
PS
Anything that has the above mentioned picture of BK will be fine. Copies of Loving What Is can now be found second hand.
Got my copy for fifty cents from a garage sale. Thrift stores are good hunting grounds.
Anything that has the above mentioned picture of BK will be fine. Copies of Loving What Is can now be found second hand.
Got my copy for fifty cents from a garage sale. Thrift stores are good hunting grounds.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.