Guru Swami G
Posted by:
The Royal Line
()
Date: August 23, 2013 09:43PM
The entire 44 page thread was lost during the transition.
This alleged Guru and students would likely chalk it up to karma and take it as confirmation that they are in the right.
For my part, I think there was far too much garbage and see it as an opportunity to hit the reset button and simplify things.
For the record, I am what you could call a spiritual seeker.
There are many here who think anything spiritual is nonsense and must be a cult.
Others who think everything other than their religion is nonsense and a cult.
Others who just seem to bask in stirring the pot any chance they get.
So here's my take on this alleged Guru from within the spiritual framework:
From the perspective of mystical traditions, and particularly within the crazy wisdom framework, it is impossible to know for sure if she is Enlightened or not.
They will generally say that only an Enlightened being can truly recognise another Enlightened being.
Some will offer outward signs related to character, actions, lifestyle, etc.
But they are generally only viewed as loose guidelines or indicators at best.
Which means it is next to impossible, at least for the vast majority who are not Enlightened, to gauge for sure one way or another.
Outwardly, the teachings go, one could be a king or beggar or anything in between.
They could spend their days sitting blissfully on a garbage heap, or stoicly on a golden throne.
They may never utter a word, or they may be gifted orators who never seem to stop talking.
They may surround themselves with celebrities and wealthy or the poor and destitute, or nobody at all.
They may take to teaching in a traditional Guru-type role, or they may be the accountant you pass by on the way to work.
They may be steeped in the teachings of a particular tradition, or they may have little to no exposure to any of it.
So..........
Outwardly she may appear to be vindictive, whiny, self-absorbed, abrasive, neurotic, nasty, indulgent, scarred, controlling, manipulative.
These are some of the things people have levelled at her on the previous thread. Be they close ex-students or simply outside observers.
But inwardly, the teachings go, it may be as she has described; no thoughts, silence, bliss, no ego, etc
And she may be, as she claims, a vehicle for transmitting that Enlightened state, call it Brahman, Buddha-nature, Presence, Pure Consciousness, Light.....to others who are open to receive it.
From within the spiritual framework, it is possible.
As for myself, I honeslty can't say for sure. I know that I lean heavily on the something-is-very-wrong-here side of the equation.
But I know enough, spiritually speaking, to know that I just don't know for sure.
To be sure, I will never be counted as a student of hers.
And I am honestly bewildered at how the two can co-exist; the thoroughly unpleasant side of her, with the Enlightened.
But in the final analysis, at least from where I stand today, I just can't say for sure one way or the other.
As Forest Gump would say, that's all I got to say about that.
This alleged Guru and students would likely chalk it up to karma and take it as confirmation that they are in the right.
For my part, I think there was far too much garbage and see it as an opportunity to hit the reset button and simplify things.
For the record, I am what you could call a spiritual seeker.
There are many here who think anything spiritual is nonsense and must be a cult.
Others who think everything other than their religion is nonsense and a cult.
Others who just seem to bask in stirring the pot any chance they get.
So here's my take on this alleged Guru from within the spiritual framework:
From the perspective of mystical traditions, and particularly within the crazy wisdom framework, it is impossible to know for sure if she is Enlightened or not.
They will generally say that only an Enlightened being can truly recognise another Enlightened being.
Some will offer outward signs related to character, actions, lifestyle, etc.
But they are generally only viewed as loose guidelines or indicators at best.
Which means it is next to impossible, at least for the vast majority who are not Enlightened, to gauge for sure one way or another.
Outwardly, the teachings go, one could be a king or beggar or anything in between.
They could spend their days sitting blissfully on a garbage heap, or stoicly on a golden throne.
They may never utter a word, or they may be gifted orators who never seem to stop talking.
They may surround themselves with celebrities and wealthy or the poor and destitute, or nobody at all.
They may take to teaching in a traditional Guru-type role, or they may be the accountant you pass by on the way to work.
They may be steeped in the teachings of a particular tradition, or they may have little to no exposure to any of it.
So..........
Outwardly she may appear to be vindictive, whiny, self-absorbed, abrasive, neurotic, nasty, indulgent, scarred, controlling, manipulative.
These are some of the things people have levelled at her on the previous thread. Be they close ex-students or simply outside observers.
But inwardly, the teachings go, it may be as she has described; no thoughts, silence, bliss, no ego, etc
And she may be, as she claims, a vehicle for transmitting that Enlightened state, call it Brahman, Buddha-nature, Presence, Pure Consciousness, Light.....to others who are open to receive it.
From within the spiritual framework, it is possible.
As for myself, I honeslty can't say for sure. I know that I lean heavily on the something-is-very-wrong-here side of the equation.
But I know enough, spiritually speaking, to know that I just don't know for sure.
To be sure, I will never be counted as a student of hers.
And I am honestly bewildered at how the two can co-exist; the thoroughly unpleasant side of her, with the Enlightened.
But in the final analysis, at least from where I stand today, I just can't say for sure one way or the other.
As Forest Gump would say, that's all I got to say about that.
Re: Guru Swami G
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: August 23, 2013 10:09PM
There were former students and/or associates complaining on this message board about Swami G.
Apparently some people that abandoned her as a teacher felt that she was abusive and unenlightened based upon their experience with her.
Apparently some people that abandoned her as a teacher felt that she was abusive and unenlightened based upon their experience with her.
Re: Guru Swami G
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: August 23, 2013 11:24PM
Quote
rrmoderator
There were former students and/or associates complaining on this message board about Swami G.
Apparently some people that abandoned her as a teacher felt that she was abusive and unenlightened based upon their experience with her.
Not to mention a terrible singer/performer to boot (IMO).
Re: Guru Swami G
Posted by:
yasmin
()
Date: August 24, 2013 01:18AM
Hi Royal Line,
I think that your assumption that most people here have a problem with different religious beliefs is wrong. Honestly, if Swami G was promoting the flying green spaghetti monster, and people were happy in the group and after leaving it, I for one would not ever bother to comment. To each his own.
IMO it is not that uncommon for people to talk a good talk but not be able to live up to it in their private lives.
Lots of people can even talk other people into having a spiritual experience...Derren Brown, the noted hypnotherapist/mentalist has done so on several shows; he even got an atheist to find God, leaving them in tears of illumination in the middle of a church.
Messing with peoples heads, Imo whether intentionally or not, is not that difficult for some. Living a good life and treating other people well without demanding special treatments and money etc when you realize that you are good at messing with peoples heads ( or good at inducing spiritual experiences in them); now imo that is a lot more challenging.
I wish someone had given the leader of the high demand religious group that I grew up in some honest feedback early in the picture. And that the leader was able to receive it and make meaningful changes.
When beliefs such as anyone who I criticize is being criticized because they "need " it and I'm doing it because I'm really compassionate, but anyone who criticizes me is doing so because they are in the "hell " realms, then imo there is not a whole lot of room for the necessary feedback, that everyone needs.
People who can make magical spiritual experiences happen; I've known some of those, and truthfully don't feel and haven't observed that it necessarily means that they are intrinsically better than the rest of us, or even in the end any more spiritual. I prefer people who are really good at basic human decency, kindness and treating others fairly. Its definitely less sexy, but just mo, more about God in the end, than the other.
I think that your assumption that most people here have a problem with different religious beliefs is wrong. Honestly, if Swami G was promoting the flying green spaghetti monster, and people were happy in the group and after leaving it, I for one would not ever bother to comment. To each his own.
IMO it is not that uncommon for people to talk a good talk but not be able to live up to it in their private lives.
Lots of people can even talk other people into having a spiritual experience...Derren Brown, the noted hypnotherapist/mentalist has done so on several shows; he even got an atheist to find God, leaving them in tears of illumination in the middle of a church.
Messing with peoples heads, Imo whether intentionally or not, is not that difficult for some. Living a good life and treating other people well without demanding special treatments and money etc when you realize that you are good at messing with peoples heads ( or good at inducing spiritual experiences in them); now imo that is a lot more challenging.
I wish someone had given the leader of the high demand religious group that I grew up in some honest feedback early in the picture. And that the leader was able to receive it and make meaningful changes.
When beliefs such as anyone who I criticize is being criticized because they "need " it and I'm doing it because I'm really compassionate, but anyone who criticizes me is doing so because they are in the "hell " realms, then imo there is not a whole lot of room for the necessary feedback, that everyone needs.
People who can make magical spiritual experiences happen; I've known some of those, and truthfully don't feel and haven't observed that it necessarily means that they are intrinsically better than the rest of us, or even in the end any more spiritual. I prefer people who are really good at basic human decency, kindness and treating others fairly. Its definitely less sexy, but just mo, more about God in the end, than the other.
Re: Guru Swami G
Posted by:
The Royal Line
()
Date: August 24, 2013 02:14AM
yasmin:
I was jut going to post a follow-up on this very subject.
Again for contect, I am speaking here from within the mystical-spiritual framework.
Even what we experience while in the presense of an alleged Guru is not a safe indicator of whether that person is authentic or not.
Why?
Several reasons.
First many are naturally charismatic in one form or another, and this can easily be confused for spiritual wisdom.
Second, even so-called profound spiritual experiences, like visions, energetic movement, quieting of mind, onset of bliss, etc
are not a reliable indicator.
First a student is often in an extra sensitive-receptive state when they are around a person they believe to be a Guru.
Which means they are far more sensitive to every little thing, they are far more tuned in to their bodies, minds, surroundings, and the Guru.
They are often expectant and desirous of receiving some kind of sign or experience.
This makes it far more likely that they are going to leave with some experience that validates the Guru and their involvement with said Guru.
But what makes it even more tricky, is that the alleged Guru may in fact be spiritually awake, but not fully Enlightened as they claim.
They may also have an awakened Kundalini.
Either/or can "transmit" consciously or unconsciously a taste of that state they are in, without them being Enlightened.
In India, for example, but also increasingly in the West, there are many people who have acquired various siddhis (powers), and who have awakened Kundalini, and/or have attained various degrees and states of awakening, samadhi, etc;
In these cases, it is not at all uncommon for people to have all kinds of exeriences in their presence; as touched upon above.
But.............
This does not mean the person transmitting is Enlightened.
So it really is impossible to know for sure if someone is genuinely Enlightened or not.
Spiritual seekers, to be sure, try desperately to validate that their Guru is the real deal.
After all, we in the West (and East) are generally a practical and intelligent lot.
We don't want to invest time, emotion, effort, and money for a lost cause.
We want to believe we are with the real deal, perhaps even the only real deal.
It is comforting and reassuring and strokes the ego as well.
Which means there is really know way of knowing if this alleged Guru is actually Enlightened or not.
She could be any number of steps up the ladder, short of full Realisation, and you will not know for sure.
She could even be completely deluded and spiritually barren, and one could be entirely fooled, as often they themselves are entirely convinced of their attainments.
So bottom line, if you are a spiritual seeker, self-honesty and solid discernment are critical. Follow your gut, and be clear what it is you are actually looking for in a teacher-path relationship.
As many seekers already know, you can be convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt you are with a true Enlightened Guru and shouting it out from the rooftops, and a month or year later you find yourself completely disillusioned and devestated from the whole ordeal, hoping you never make the same moronic blunder ever again.
And still, if we are honest, barring really blatant horrible incidents, we may still have gotten it wrong.
They say people know because it is their direct expereience, as real or more than our waking reality.
But we have far too many examples of teachers and students who were absolutely convinced they had that level of knowing-clarity-conviction, only to find themselves once again lost at sea.
So if you are drawn to spirituality, and particularly to Gurus, be prepared for anything. Be honest with your intentions-expectations. Have your eyes wide open.
There is a saying......trust in God, but don't forget to tie up your camel.
Similarly, strive to be an empty vessel, but don't forget to paint eyes on the figurehead at the bow of the vessel :)
In the final analysis, you will have to draw upon the tools in your toolbox - intuition, gut, intellect, discerment etc
And still there will be no guarantees.
God speed!
I was jut going to post a follow-up on this very subject.
Again for contect, I am speaking here from within the mystical-spiritual framework.
Even what we experience while in the presense of an alleged Guru is not a safe indicator of whether that person is authentic or not.
Why?
Several reasons.
First many are naturally charismatic in one form or another, and this can easily be confused for spiritual wisdom.
Second, even so-called profound spiritual experiences, like visions, energetic movement, quieting of mind, onset of bliss, etc
are not a reliable indicator.
First a student is often in an extra sensitive-receptive state when they are around a person they believe to be a Guru.
Which means they are far more sensitive to every little thing, they are far more tuned in to their bodies, minds, surroundings, and the Guru.
They are often expectant and desirous of receiving some kind of sign or experience.
This makes it far more likely that they are going to leave with some experience that validates the Guru and their involvement with said Guru.
But what makes it even more tricky, is that the alleged Guru may in fact be spiritually awake, but not fully Enlightened as they claim.
They may also have an awakened Kundalini.
Either/or can "transmit" consciously or unconsciously a taste of that state they are in, without them being Enlightened.
In India, for example, but also increasingly in the West, there are many people who have acquired various siddhis (powers), and who have awakened Kundalini, and/or have attained various degrees and states of awakening, samadhi, etc;
In these cases, it is not at all uncommon for people to have all kinds of exeriences in their presence; as touched upon above.
But.............
This does not mean the person transmitting is Enlightened.
So it really is impossible to know for sure if someone is genuinely Enlightened or not.
Spiritual seekers, to be sure, try desperately to validate that their Guru is the real deal.
After all, we in the West (and East) are generally a practical and intelligent lot.
We don't want to invest time, emotion, effort, and money for a lost cause.
We want to believe we are with the real deal, perhaps even the only real deal.
It is comforting and reassuring and strokes the ego as well.
Which means there is really know way of knowing if this alleged Guru is actually Enlightened or not.
She could be any number of steps up the ladder, short of full Realisation, and you will not know for sure.
She could even be completely deluded and spiritually barren, and one could be entirely fooled, as often they themselves are entirely convinced of their attainments.
So bottom line, if you are a spiritual seeker, self-honesty and solid discernment are critical. Follow your gut, and be clear what it is you are actually looking for in a teacher-path relationship.
As many seekers already know, you can be convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt you are with a true Enlightened Guru and shouting it out from the rooftops, and a month or year later you find yourself completely disillusioned and devestated from the whole ordeal, hoping you never make the same moronic blunder ever again.
And still, if we are honest, barring really blatant horrible incidents, we may still have gotten it wrong.
They say people know because it is their direct expereience, as real or more than our waking reality.
But we have far too many examples of teachers and students who were absolutely convinced they had that level of knowing-clarity-conviction, only to find themselves once again lost at sea.
So if you are drawn to spirituality, and particularly to Gurus, be prepared for anything. Be honest with your intentions-expectations. Have your eyes wide open.
There is a saying......trust in God, but don't forget to tie up your camel.
Similarly, strive to be an empty vessel, but don't forget to paint eyes on the figurehead at the bow of the vessel :)
In the final analysis, you will have to draw upon the tools in your toolbox - intuition, gut, intellect, discerment etc
And still there will be no guarantees.
God speed!
Re: Guru Swami G
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: August 24, 2013 02:21AM
The Royal Line:
You are drifting off topic.
The topic of this thread is Sharon/Swami G.
Please stay focused and on topic.
The issue is does Sharon hurt people as "Swami G."?
Is she an abusive leader that exploits and uses people?
How has she hurt people that have become her devotees or students?
You are drifting off topic.
The topic of this thread is Sharon/Swami G.
Please stay focused and on topic.
The issue is does Sharon hurt people as "Swami G."?
Is she an abusive leader that exploits and uses people?
How has she hurt people that have become her devotees or students?
Re: Guru Swami G
Posted by:
The Royal Line
()
Date: August 24, 2013 02:54AM
Fair enough.
Well I've read all of the relevant info from the old thread.
And to be clear, I'm not taking defintive sides in this.
She has clearly hurt some people with her words and actions.
Then again, we all have, and one person's hurt is another person's wake up call.
Probably the most disturbing was making certain private info public as a tit for tat against a former student.
Hard to see that one as anything but vindictive, but then again, from within the Guru/Student framework,
even for an ex-student, she could say it was a spontaneous action with a lesson this student needed to get.
I don't subscribe to that version, I'm just trying to get into the mindset (heartset?)
Is she an abusive leader? Her students clearly don't think so. And I don't see clear-cut evidence from ex-students
that she abused them.
Does she exploit people? Again, her students don't think so. I can see how ex-students might feel that way, but
I'm not sure how exactly they were exploited if they were consenting adults as far as giving donations, their time,
etc
Again, I would say she can definitely be an unpleasant individual; even outright nasty at times.
And it is very difficult to square this with her claim of Enlightenment.
But I'm not sure a strong case can be made for abuse and exploitation.
These are adults who enter into this arrangement willingly.
From what I have gleamed, if at ANY point they don't like ANYTHING at all, they are free to leave.
Yes, she might rant about it and say they are going right back to the hell realm they were in before
joining, but that's her belief system, her character, her right.
And even if she was overtly abusive verbally for example, or insisted on x amount of money, or that someone
should leave their spouse and join her, etc - these are consenting adults that cna always say no.
And as I said in the opening 2 posts, even these things are not outright evidence that she is not Enlightened.
Why?
Because the teachings generally agree that Enlightenment-Self-Realisation doesn't mean the persona dissolves or
magically transforms. It means the identification with the I-EGO-MIND identity has dissolved and there is only Pure
Awareness remaining. But the persona is still operational.
I know respected teachers (past and present) that chain smoked, hurled abusive words, had horrible diets, poor social skills, instructed students
to do all manner of things like leave the ashram forever, or return to their families, or stop doing x job, or renounce the world, or hand over their wealth to charity, or meditate in a cave for a couple years, and on and on. I can think of one respected Saint-Guru-Yogi that would throw rocks at approaching people seeking his Darshan (similar to blessings) and thought nothing of it; in fact walked away in bliss.
So like I said, I just don't know if this alleged Guru is the real deal or not.
No doubt there are aspects of her persona that are unfortunate, unpleasant, even nasty.
And no doubt it would be easier for her students and those around her if she was not this way.
And I for one could not be around her no matter how strong the transmission.
But whether she is Enlightened or not, I simply cannot say.
Well I've read all of the relevant info from the old thread.
And to be clear, I'm not taking defintive sides in this.
She has clearly hurt some people with her words and actions.
Then again, we all have, and one person's hurt is another person's wake up call.
Probably the most disturbing was making certain private info public as a tit for tat against a former student.
Hard to see that one as anything but vindictive, but then again, from within the Guru/Student framework,
even for an ex-student, she could say it was a spontaneous action with a lesson this student needed to get.
I don't subscribe to that version, I'm just trying to get into the mindset (heartset?)
Is she an abusive leader? Her students clearly don't think so. And I don't see clear-cut evidence from ex-students
that she abused them.
Does she exploit people? Again, her students don't think so. I can see how ex-students might feel that way, but
I'm not sure how exactly they were exploited if they were consenting adults as far as giving donations, their time,
etc
Again, I would say she can definitely be an unpleasant individual; even outright nasty at times.
And it is very difficult to square this with her claim of Enlightenment.
But I'm not sure a strong case can be made for abuse and exploitation.
These are adults who enter into this arrangement willingly.
From what I have gleamed, if at ANY point they don't like ANYTHING at all, they are free to leave.
Yes, she might rant about it and say they are going right back to the hell realm they were in before
joining, but that's her belief system, her character, her right.
And even if she was overtly abusive verbally for example, or insisted on x amount of money, or that someone
should leave their spouse and join her, etc - these are consenting adults that cna always say no.
And as I said in the opening 2 posts, even these things are not outright evidence that she is not Enlightened.
Why?
Because the teachings generally agree that Enlightenment-Self-Realisation doesn't mean the persona dissolves or
magically transforms. It means the identification with the I-EGO-MIND identity has dissolved and there is only Pure
Awareness remaining. But the persona is still operational.
I know respected teachers (past and present) that chain smoked, hurled abusive words, had horrible diets, poor social skills, instructed students
to do all manner of things like leave the ashram forever, or return to their families, or stop doing x job, or renounce the world, or hand over their wealth to charity, or meditate in a cave for a couple years, and on and on. I can think of one respected Saint-Guru-Yogi that would throw rocks at approaching people seeking his Darshan (similar to blessings) and thought nothing of it; in fact walked away in bliss.
So like I said, I just don't know if this alleged Guru is the real deal or not.
No doubt there are aspects of her persona that are unfortunate, unpleasant, even nasty.
And no doubt it would be easier for her students and those around her if she was not this way.
And I for one could not be around her no matter how strong the transmission.
But whether she is Enlightened or not, I simply cannot say.
Re: Guru Swami G
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: August 24, 2013 04:13AM
The posts on the old thread in my opinion were an indictment of Swami G.
She violated confidentiality, using personal information given to her in confidence to vindictively tear people down in fits of retaliation.
She apparently takes gifts and money from her followers, essentially exploiting them for her personal profit, including jewelry.
It's now surprising that those who stay don't say anything negative. People in groups called "cults" frequently feel unable to criticize the leader and that the leader can do no wrong.
The only way people in a totalitarian group can vote is with their feet. That is, if you don't agree with the leader leave.
That's the "mindset."
Why do people put up with "vindictive" abuse?
Why don't they just "say no."
Because in groups called "cults" they have been subjected to thought reform techniques, often called "brainwashing."
See [www.culteducation.com]
Certain psychological themes which recur in these various historical contexts also arise in the study of cults. Cults can be identified by three characteristics:
a charismatic leader who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose their power;
a process I call coercive persuasion or thought reform;
economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.
What would behave like in a potentially unsafe group?
See [www.culteducation.com]
1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.
2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.
3. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".
4. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.
5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.
6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.
7. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.
8. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.
9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
10. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
In my opinion the complaints about Swami G. seem to fit this pattern and parallel the primary features of a destructive cult.
She violated confidentiality, using personal information given to her in confidence to vindictively tear people down in fits of retaliation.
She apparently takes gifts and money from her followers, essentially exploiting them for her personal profit, including jewelry.
It's now surprising that those who stay don't say anything negative. People in groups called "cults" frequently feel unable to criticize the leader and that the leader can do no wrong.
The only way people in a totalitarian group can vote is with their feet. That is, if you don't agree with the leader leave.
That's the "mindset."
Why do people put up with "vindictive" abuse?
Why don't they just "say no."
Because in groups called "cults" they have been subjected to thought reform techniques, often called "brainwashing."
See [www.culteducation.com]
Certain psychological themes which recur in these various historical contexts also arise in the study of cults. Cults can be identified by three characteristics:
a charismatic leader who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose their power;
a process I call coercive persuasion or thought reform;
economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.
What would behave like in a potentially unsafe group?
See [www.culteducation.com]
1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.
2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.
3. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".
4. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.
5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.
6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.
7. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.
8. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.
9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
10. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
In my opinion the complaints about Swami G. seem to fit this pattern and parallel the primary features of a destructive cult.
Re: Guru Swami G
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: August 24, 2013 08:55AM
Discussion about Swami G on another venue
Quote
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4483Quote
mufad
44 Posts
Posted - Sep 21 2008 : 10:50:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Friends,
For the past few months, I had joined the online ashram of SwamiG.
Some of her students have made websites for her like
[kundalinisupport.com]
[guruswamig.com]
She has video satsangs and diksha experiences of students on youtube, and her online ashram is a yahoogroups group so all achieved exchanges with all past and present students is available to be viewed by all members, including the 8 people who are believed to have reached realisation through her.
She has said that her guru verbally abused her and that caused her to go deep and enter realisation. That seems to give her licence to abuse any student for no conceivable reason. She calls it Kali Energy that cuts the head of ego. In the beginning I understood this and withstood her misunderstandings and beatings thinking that she knows what she is doing, but now after observing the same pattern occurring repeatedly I doubt her. Her negativity is not only directed to students, but it projects in her outlook - for example she posted this before gurupoornima
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Every year the Guru's from this path sit at home -- answering mails
and seeing the posts Gee Thanks for being here.... Now i have a
question for you to take care of....... Is One day a year to much of
a stretch for people to actually get up off their butts to do more than
place a gratuitous post ? Every year this brings a great sadness to
the Heart that when so much is being given and has been given that
so little is done by the Sadhaka's to show their appreciation to the
Guru's for the Light and Wisdom which came at a heavy cost.... Am
glad this year will be in a hotel in Hawaii versus in an empty home
online answering question after question.... It is unbelievable that not
even flowers are sent to the Guru's.... Are Guru's worth so little ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another example of negativity towards other realised sages
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yesterday was *supposed* to be Guru's day off ---- and it wound
up that we answered mails in the morning and came back to a full
day of mails that have to be answered today as well as this days
mails on top of it.....
This is the problem when everyone volunteers and it lasts one week
then never mind Guru will take care of it all.....
One day this Guru will drop the form ---- Have 6 been brought to
Realization besides the Guru's only to allow things to simply fall
apart out of lack of Seva...... Can not an hour a day be given to
aide other seekers ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More Complaining and Negativity
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the form has diabetes simply because day in and day out has
been spent on the computer answering all questions that come giving out
what light me be given.... It is a stress to read mail after mail of mistaken
mindsets and do what is possible to shake them loose so they may fall away....
One Sacrifices the health so that others may find the Light of Unchanging
Absolute....
This is the reality of the matter.....
while others go out on the weekends to party Guru is still dedicating the
energies towards pulling seekers out of the suffering me complex.....
There is no one here cooking for Guru --- there is no one here cleaning the house...
What time is taken is not for play but solely to keep things moving along as best they
may be..... Other Guru's take time out for meditation and to replenish and only give
Satsangs either once a week or for the more didicated up to one hour per day......
They have Sadhakas that are taking care of their needs so that their energies
may be fully kept as much as possible and in place for giving the precious seed of
Knowledge....
There is precious little of this sort here --- in other Ashrams Guru is chauffered around
here the Guru is the chauffer - the cook - the janitor - etc... When is there time to
take care of the form as it should be..... So yes the stress of being on the net day in
and day out from morning to night takes a toll on the form.... Why isn't Guru in
perfect health ? this is why..... This is the reality of it..... This is the sacrifice of it....
This is the Seva that costs the Guru their life energies..... It takes a lot of energy to
deal with negative mindsets that are in confusion and darkness day in and day out....
To battle against minds that are first centered in their ( it's all about me mode ). Most
are solely seeing things from the angle of how they are being benefited or feeling put
upon and abused..... This is a larger drain upon the forms energy....
Have tried to get a full ashram in place but there are no sadhakas that are willing to
stay there..... they all want their private lives --- so what is the alternative ? Just to
continue to give and give until the form finally gives out..... that or this Guru could just
walk away and be able to enjoy the hard won Bliss ----- but there is no Bliss when having
to keep the energies engaged in wrestling with the seekers mindsets that remain in the
stirred up mud......
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding Her Anger, She says
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now as far as this idea that Real Realized beings never get angry and are always in a syrupy loving mode and if not then they are not going to measure up to Mufads idea of what he thinks it should be.... Look at Christ --- There was Anger --- There was Action in throwing over the money changers tables... Are you saying that Christ was a fake ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
She Posted this recently
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seekers have no idea why Guru's do what they do ----
Seekers see through flawed eyes and only from the small picture...
Why would a Sadhaka be sent away ?
For one, when insolence and disrespect for the Guru
raises it's head the Sadhaka only is digging a hole for himself ...
Each infraction and marked display of disrespect only works
to dissolve the Grace which Guru has imparted.... When the
Sadhaka has used up all the Grace from Transmissions then
no matter how much greener the grass may seem elsewhere
Nothing that Sadhaka does will afford him any progress....
How can you Disrespect the Direct Truth and then have any illusions
that the Universe is going to continue to Bless you.... You are
rather constructing a difficult karmic path which you won't want
to walk....
THEREFORE this Guru in Grace and Compassion will cut you off
from the Ashram BEFORE you fully Bankrupt the Grace that has been
imparted.... Before you have dug a hole that will require Lifetimes of
hardship before being given another opportunity for forward motion....
This is the Grace and Compassion of Guru ----
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Guru gives Seva through Tapashya --- Rather than living Fully
in Bliss this is put aside to give the Love needed to break through the
ill-usions...
Rather than giving Sermons and lovely speeches that one may
either attempt to adopt or lay aside and which will pump up the
ego convincing it that it is a divine co-creator and pulls the sadhaka
only as far as oneness ---- This Guru wants to see the Sadhaka's
enter into the full Freedom of Realization.... Trust this it is much
easier to give lovely speeches and stirring affirmations that keep
egos feeling cozy and loved but it is Tough Love that is willing to
bear the judgements and mistaken notions by sadhaka's in order
to move them beyond oneness and lower samadhi bliss....
So judge if you will ---- but be careful you don't dig a hole
you cannot get out of for lifetimes.... Keep your tongue and
either go forward in glad humility or leave quietly and seek
what it is you think you need that you aren't finding here....
Do not judge less you be judged....
What does it mean that Guru can save you from God but none
can save you from the Guru ????
It means that Guru gives the light and Grace which may
turn your life around and mitigate much karma that you
would have had to pay.... Guru brings a Transmission of
GRACE...
When the Guru washes their hands of you then none
may help you....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Could a person who posts the above be a true Guru ?
What do you feel ?
Thank You,
Mufad.
PS:
To be fair to her, I did not find in her any greed for money or any interest in phenomena or miracles.
All her communications are open and truthful.
I am no longer in her ashram as she kicked me out for a period of one month because she said I was showing disrespect to her.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - mufad on Sep 21 2008 11:27:18 PM
Etherfish
USA
3491 Posts
Posted - Sep 21 2008 : 11:16:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The whole idea of needing a guru is old school. If you feel you need a guru than maybe you do, but it is not necessary anymore. The spiritual energy has increased to such a level that we can do it on our own.
Not that there is anything wrong with gurus. They have their purpose and some people need them for a while, some need them forever.
But there is no hard and fast rule that a guru is needed anymore. Many people don't need them at all, some have a guru who doesn't live in a body. I have had many gurus, most who didn't even call themselves that. Now my guru is within myself. I feel it is separate from me, but some say it is not.
Only you know if you need her or not, and what is more important is not whether she is authentic, but how much can she help you.
yogibear
409 Posts
Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 12:12:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mufad,
"You attract more flies with honey than vinegar."
What more can I say?
Best, yb.
Scott
USA
969 Posts
Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 10:40:23 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
what is more important is not whether she is authentic, but how much can she help you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree 100%. If she is authentic (which I believe) but can't help you, then what's the point? Move on. That's what I did.
If you think you can handle her abusiveness, then follow her and see what happens. I wasn't able to handle it personally...but maybe some can.
And just so you know, she's wrong about this:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When the Guru washes their hands of you then none
may help you....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totally wrong. And SHE isn't the guru...she's got that wrong as well. If only the enlightened ones could be rational sometimes, it'd help a lot. But I think it's too late to discuss this with her and maybe see a change...she seems to be completely unconscious of herself. That's something she should've dealt with earlier on in the path, before she lost her sense of herself. Now if you bring it up, it'll make no sense to her.
But yeah, just know that you can move on and find a better teaching that points more towards the truth. It's your right as a human being...she has no power over that.
newpov
USA
183 Posts
Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 12:35:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mufad,
You are a child of the living God, and you are attempting to realize this for yourself, such is your desire. The race is long, it will most likely be exhausting perhaps--only those who hunger, and thirst as well, will be filled with righteousness!
Would this lady dare elevate her sight above yours? "One up, one down" is passe. Eyes at a level! Please, don't give your power away to another human being!
newpov
riptiz
United Kingdom
683 Posts
Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 6:21:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
I actually looked at her group some time ago and quite frankfully was dismayed at her attitude to others.She seems to be of the opinion that because she is 'enlightened' or 'the guru' that she should command respect and obedience.There's an old saying that we earn respect not that we have a right to it.
L&L
Dave
mufad
44 Posts
Posted - Sep 25 2008 : 05:16:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by riptiz
Hi,
I actually looked at her group some time ago and quite frankfully was dismayed at her attitude to others.She seems to be of the opinion that because she is 'enlightened' or 'the guru' that she should command respect and obedience.There's an old saying that we earn respect not that we have a right to it.
L&L
Dave
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Dave,
Yes, that is it, she seems to have a need for respect, which periodically results in egoic outburts targeted at students who would dare to ask any question. She makes demands for respect and ruthlessly abuses students with accusations of argumentation, arrogance, disrespect, anger, insolence, sarcasm etc - most of which is ussually not there and is only perceived by her from missunderstanding.
Here is what she posted one day about respect
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Namaste
In the Presence of the Guru
It is time to Understand what is required when interacting with Any Guru....
Here people have been way to lax, to the point of out and out disrespect...
This is Draining on the Guru's form....
Guru is there to hold out the Pearl of Great Price and to do so has come
on the heels of great sacrifice along the way.... There is NO Guru or
Tradition that would Allow such casual attitudes to flourish such as
what has been taking place here year after year..... None would ever
continue to allow those who bring disrespectful arguments to continue
to be given Grace.
Since it has come to the point of this Guru being drained to the point of
collapse and none are mindful of this then it is time to have to put forth
Rules and admonishments...
So here is a link to what other paths hold to when interacting with a Guru
and this is Quite the Standard anywhere else:
[community.palouse.net]
THIS IS MANDATORY READING AND MUST BE UNDERSTOOD
BEFORE DIKSHA WILL BE GIVEN.... (now reflect on what has been
the attitude here and why this has to end)
IN order to continue to hold the Energy of this Path in place this Guru needs
to have time to replenish the energy.... There is no Guru that does not take
much time in mediation and time alone to do so.... Even Christ who only
worked 3 years Took time out alone to replenish.... Do you think that this
Guru needs less ? All Guru's especially lineage holders NEED to have time
to replenish or else they are headed for an early loss of the form.... There
are
Sages enough to give what is needed at the Online Ashram.... The Guru's
should be given time and space to be able to hold the energetic level in
place that is needed..... There has been no time in History that so many
are making such rapid progress and to continue this trend the Guru has
to hold the energetic center in place.... This REQUIRES that the Guru has
time to replenish....
It is with great sadness that it has to come to the point of saying enough
is enough and now there is no other option but for this Guru to put the
foot down and say the Guru's home must have Silence ---- the Guru is
not here to entertain - drive - or be the Sadhaka's hang out buddy....
The Guru is not here to be a tour guide - Sadhaka's are to come in
humility with great respect for what the Guru is willing to give.......
Every Second of Darshan is a GREAT BOON...
1. Any wishing to come Must first clear it and not just assume that the Guru
will make time to spend days on end with them....
2. At most 1 hour a day should be sufficient .... (this is
55 minutes more than any other Guru will give in one to one
attention...)
3. Sadhaka's should have their questions ready that pertain to
the path and their Sadhana
4. Please make reservations at a hotel for your stay
5. Either rent a car or Guru will meet with you at the hotel
lobby.
6. You are responsible to provide your own meals.
7. Those requesting Diksha should understand the protocol
A. Flowers
B. Fruit (to be blessed and handed out at Satsang)
C. Dakshina (offering for the Non-profit)
D. Optional is a Guru offering or small gift of gratitude....
E. Diksha Requires that the path is walked in earnest and that
All the mandatory Requirements are met.....
A. All practices done AS Instructed
B. Reports turned in weekly
C. Ongoing contact within Online Ashram
D. Seva offered and given as one has ability to do so
E. Tithing on regular basis (this is up to the sadhaka)
MEDITATION SHOULD BE DONE THE DAY BEFORE IN PREPARATION...
Am greatly saddened that it has to come to this point -- but today was to
the point of such exhaustion that to go forward without these provisions
would most certainly mean that this Guru's form is draining it's life force
out to the point of death by one means or another.... While Yes am quite
willing to Sacrifice (and have done so for Years) there comes a time when
the Reality of the situation must be addressed.... This time has come.....
Maha Shanti OM
0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe that the more you give the more you are filled up from the infinite source. If one is getting exausted, depleated and complaining because of giving too much, then may be it is not true selfless giving.
What do others feel ?
Thank You,
Mufad.
Eitherway
USA
100 Posts
Posted - Sep 25 2008 : 10:18:38 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
Sounds like some major purification to me!! I can understand that the demands on the guru could surely be overwhelming, she should take some time off which could surely help her gain a new perspective on the situation.
Mufad, it is quite clear that you and the guru need to part ways. I'm sure you learned a lot from her, even if it wasn't exactly what she intended.
I would recommend following the ayp techniques for a year or so. The buffet is right in front of you, or rather inside or you are the buffet, oh wait there is no buffet (just some advaita humor). Seriously, just do the practices and then with the rise of inner silence, we can just take the best from everyone around us, including gurus, and leave whatever doesn't resonate without making it fodder for the mind.
good luck, eitherway
newpov
USA
183 Posts
Posted - Sep 25 2008 : 10:35:52 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mufad,
On this matter, "Guru is there to hold out the Pearl of Great Price", you might want to read my Amazon review of "Secrets of Wilder" at
[www.aypsite.org]
John wilder experiences some energy drain with some of his experiments. His final gift is not depleting at all.
Don't you find this lady's capitalization of some many words to be extremely wearing and domineering?
You have gained perhaps some things from her, now let her rest. Enough "pile on" ! Move your life on to other things?
newpov
brother neil
USA
752 Posts
Posted - Sep 25 2008 : 3:29:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My opininion,
if you have decieded to leave her teachings, then leave and let it be. You are holding onto a mental argument, let it go brother and move on, leave the city and dont look back. You are draining your own energies.
just my opinion.
my best to you brother
i am love, i am light i am peace, i am joy
i am of the one, the same one as you
i am neil
mufad
44 Posts
Posted - Oct 16 2008 : 1:04:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Friends,
Thank You for your replies,
See [www.youtube.com]
Is he possessed or are those strange kriyas because of unfinished past life practices ?
In the video, Swamig brings him to balance and he has now entered realisation, to join the 8 other sages that swamig has brought to realisation.
Here is his interview after the above incident video at [www.youtube.com]
I have restarted AYP practices and have no intention right now of going back to swamig, though a small part of me still wonders if I am missing out on the opportunity because of my ego. She has mentioned “So judge if you will ---- but be careful you don't dig a hole
you cannot get out of for lifetimes.... Keep your tongue”
Then why I am making this post instead of “keeping my tongue” ? to get the opinion of people more knowledgeable about these matters, and to help other people to know the facts about swamig, this page now comes first in the search engines, even above her own sites, when someone searches for “Swami Ganga Puri” or “SwamiG” or “Uttammananda” – thank you Yogani.
In my post above, I intentionally left out her correspondence with me, as that bitterness could have been what she thinks I need, but the above quotes are generally directed to all students. For more details about what happened with me see [www.aypsite.org]
I found that in 2005 one of her students committed suicide which may have been caused due to situations created by her (details at [groups.yahoo.com] and swamig’s reply at [groups.yahoo.com] requires signup)
She seems to have some degree of ability to move shakti (she calls it kali energy) but my assessment is that she misunderstands a shift in consciousness from the mind into the right side of chest as enlightment. I feel that there cannot be enlightment without compassion and bliss. I also feel that where there is anger, misunderstanding, complaining and negativity, there cannot be true enlightment.
Following her practices I had found the front right side of my chest vibrating, like there was a vortex of energy there, feels like a stream of bubbles coming out of soda. The colours in nature were brighter when I was doing her practices, but I was loosing contact with my inner bliss and intuitive connection. The stillness I experienced seemed like a negative lethargic one, a tamasic one. Sometimes I felt a weight in the right side of chest area. She calls it the spiritual heart. She instructs students not to focus on the third eye center and always keep attention in the spiritual heart center. The right side of my chest still vibrates occasionally even though I have stopped her practices now.
Does anyone have any idea about the spiritual heart centre at the right of the chest ? Should I stop focusing in that area ? The vibrations increase when listening to music or reading something or before falling asleep at night.
Thank You,
Love,
Mufad.
Scott
USA
969 Posts
Posted - Oct 16 2008 : 2:17:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found that in 2005 one of her students committed suicide which may have been caused due to situations created by her (details at [groups.yahoo.com] and swamig’s reply at [groups.yahoo.com] requires signup)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's too bad to hear. Really too bad.
But suicide is a choice that comes from the individual...I wouldn't say that Swami G caused it to happen. But perhaps a little less "tough love" would've been good for that person.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
She seems to have some degree of ability to move shakti (she calls it kali energy) but my assessment is that she misunderstands a shift in consciousness from the mind into the right side of chest as enlightment. I feel that there cannot be enlightment without compassion and bliss. I also feel that where there is anger, misunderstanding, complaining and negativity, there cannot be true enlightment.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I tend to agree with her, that what she and her sages have attained is enlightenment. But being enlightened is no excuse to have so many bad tendencies.
I also tend to agree with you, Mufad, that when there are these tendencies there isn't enlightenment.
So what is the issue here? I think she has chosen to act that way because she thinks it's an effective way of helping people.
Of course enlightened people can be wrong.
CarsonZi
Canada
2944 Posts
Posted - Oct 16 2008 : 2:30:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Really Scott? You think so? You said "Of course enlightened people can be wrong"....
Can a TRUELY enlightened person be wrong? Like dead wrong? I always thought that a truely enlightnened being would have had the veil of illusion lifted and would be able to see everything as it truely is. So the only mistake possible to make would be to verbalize things improperly if even that. Maybe I am wrong and I am putting people like Jesus and Buddha on a pedestal, but I always thought that the whole idea of enlightenment meant that you would no longer allow oneself to make a wrong action/choice/decision etc.
In Love,
Carson
Scott
USA
969 Posts
Posted - Oct 16 2008 : 3:02:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So an enlightened person could walk into my chemistry class on Monday and take my exam for me, and I'd be guaranteed an A+? Of course enlightened people can be dead wrong about things.
CarsonZi
Canada
2944 Posts
Posted - Oct 16 2008 : 3:26:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess I've had the wrong impression all along then, cause yes, I was thinking that an enlightened person like Christ would have had no problem Acing ANY test let alone a chemistry test! I have never met an enlightened being I don't think, so I've never had opportunity to test this theory. I always thought that once permanently connected to the Source of everything how could you NOT know everything!?
In Love,
Carson
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - CarsonZi on Oct 16 2008 3:31:54 PM
yogani
USA
4676 Posts
Posted - Oct 16 2008 : 3:49:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Carson:
Enlightened people can fall flat on their face like anyone else. The good news is that it leaves little lasting impression (limited identification), and that is why calamities befalling the enlightened are often accompanied by infectious laughter.
There is additional good news. Because enlightenment is not some distant imaginary perfection, we each will find it to be much closer to what we are experiencing right now. It is very near, and with daily practices, getting nearer all the time. It is ... Now.
For some additional perspective, see this lesson on "enlightenment and perfection": [www.aypsite.org]
Does this mean an enlightened person can be grumpy? Sure. It also means that they will attract mainly those people who need (or are willing to put up with) a grumpy teacher. Everyone has a choice on how they conduct their life -- both teachers and students. The enlightened and the nearly enlightened.
No one has a corner on the market.
The guru is in you.
CarsonZi
Canada
2944 Posts
Posted - Oct 16 2008 : 4:06:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That to me doesn't seem enlightened. How can someone be both grumpy AND enlightened? What could a TRUELY enlightened being have to be grumpy about? Christ wasn't "grumpy" about being crucified although he had real cause to be, seeing as he was completely misunderstood and he knew that. To me a truely enlightened being COULD fall flat on their face, but would not. Doesn't the very definition of enlightened mean something like "all knowing" or "all seeing" or something along those lines? How could someone who was all knowing make a mistake? It would have to be on purpose and that would automatically make them UNenlightened. This all seems very much like a contradiction in terms to me.
In Love,
Carson
Please understand that I am just trying to get to the truth here and am not trying to make anyone feel one way or the other for believing something different then I do. All in the name of dialectic conversation.
Eitherway
USA
100 Posts
Posted - Oct 16 2008 : 4:29:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HI Scott and Carsonzi,
The latter posts come back to what enlightenment is and isn't. Yogani regards enlightenment as a never ending process and also here and now. So complete enlightenment, save for a tiny few over centuries, is probably pointless to talk about.
More importantly, it seems there are teachers who are believed to be self-realized in the sense that they think they are (and they maybe) free of the ego, however, they are in no shape or way even close to perfection. The lack of perfection can be seen in myriad things such as tone and tact used with students, disparaging remarks concerning other paths, heck even eating more than your body requires for subsisting. In addition, there are so many examples of teachers who think they are realized but are clearly operating from an expanded ego instead of one that has drowned in silence. Cue stories about abuse-sexual, financial, emotional, etc....
I think there is a possibility that you can feel self-realized (free of ego) and even have siddhi's while there is still significant work to be done in terms of purification (maybe there are different areas of the neurology in play). The problem is that at this point, the teacher already believes themselves to be completely enlightened and thus doesn't feel like there is anything left to do, other than to live.
The better thing to do would be to continue to work on all aspects of your self (paradox) but obviously this is hard because it again seems to mean that you are not enlightened. Further complicating the scenario are students who are fawning all over the guru and proclaiming how enlightened they are!
I think this scenario will be more common in the quick, short cut routes. Well integrated systems, like ayp, insure that much purification and subsequent improvement in normal functions (cognitive, emotional, social, ....) will precede dramatic experiences of realization.
So, I think persons can be self realized (lose ego) but can appear to be jerks, poor teachers, and miserable humans (see ug krishnamurti).
Also, coming back to whether a self realized person will be able to ace a test or not. I don't have any reason to believe that Jesus would know the tca cycle details from biochemistry without reading about it, but I think along the way on any structured path, the person will gain a lot of abilities (have great level of energy, clarity of thought, a sharp memory, a superior ability to concentrate) that would enable them to be able to do most things they want quicker and more easily than average humans.
take care,
eitherway
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - Eitherway on Oct 16 2008 4:33:46 PM
yogani
USA
4676 Posts
Posted - Oct 16 2008 : 4:33:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Carson:
Ah, but enlightenment is not what we think it is. It is what it is, and that is a paradox -- stillness in action.
As mentioned, that is good news, because as long as we hold enlightenment in mind as this or that, it will be out of reach. It is only in letting go that we become it by degrees. The rise of inner silence within us is the essence of this process.
If someone is abusive, it does not matter whether they are enlightened or not. People will ultimately be judged by their actions, not by what we have imagined them to be, or by what we think they will give us in exchange for putting up with their abuse. It is also questionable whether a "friendly" teacher should be held high up on a pedestal. In either case, we will be stuck in co-dependence.
Ideally, an external teacher will be relatively easy to transcend to something much more that is within us, with no external co-dependence. That is the real challenge in spiritual teaching -- helping others release into direct relationship with their divine Self.
The guru is in you.
CarsonZi
Canada
2944 Posts
Posted - Oct 16 2008 : 4:47:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks Eitherway and Yogani,
I understand what you are both saying but I think the confusion is coming over the definition of "TRUELY" enlightened yet again. I understand that enlightenment is an ongoing process that is never really finished, but don't you think that once a certain point is reached, (whatever that point may be) that the ego, feelings/emotions and everything else that normal people have to deal with, falls away never to be picked up again? What could someone who is living in 24/7/365 divine BLISS have to complain, be grumpy, snooty or whatever about? I can't see ANY situation in which Jesus Christ would have gotten unjustifiably emotional. Wouldn't someone who see's through all the maya of this world find better ways of dealing with petty emotions then to give them freedom to express themselves? Why would a truely enlightened being get MAD at someone when there are other ways of dealing with these types of circumstances without letting emotions run wild?
I understand that there are different degree's of enlightenment and I can accept that, but if there WAS such thing as a "truely" enlightened being wouldn't that being have transcended all emotion besides love?
In Love,
Carson
Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts
Posted - Oct 16 2008 : 4:57:33 PM
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Hi Carson
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christ wasn't "grumpy" about being crucified although he had real cause to be
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to the scripture Jesus fell on his knees in the garden of Getsemane.....asking God if he could possibly take the burden of the crucifiction off his shoulders. But he added - "thy will be done".
So - even Jesus, the enlightened one, was capable of despair....
So much has been added and subtracted over thousands of years regarding what it means to be enlightened......
I can't help it, but keep coming back to "letting go"......."surrender"........
The greater the surrender, the deeper the realization.
And it never stops.......does it.....it is always "Thy will be done"....and it is never anywhere else but right here.
Right now.
I thought that was all there was to know......that omniscience was the perception of NOW.......of Presence........deeper and broader.....expanding in all directions.
And then the talents we are born with will decide what things we will be wizzards at - be it chemistry or music or running or anything else.
When presence preceives itself it is awareness that shines. The light of awareness understands what it touches. It is instant understanding. Omniscience in and of THIS moment. Not as in solving a riddle......but as in seeing what is. It knows itself. And that is all that is, no?
Just some ramblings from the sofa in my little "hule" in Norway...
Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts
Posted - Oct 16 2008 : 5:00:24 PM
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Wow......we all cross posted
CarsonZi
Canada
2944 Posts
Posted - Oct 16 2008 : 5:09:04 PM
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Hi Katrine,
Yes I remember that part of the Bible story well, and I even remember Jesus getting mad at the money lenders in the church, but I don't think that contradicts what I am saying here...A truely enlightened being would at some point have to get to a point where emotions are left behind. It may have happened after Jesus was crucified for him, I don't know. It may not have happened at all for him and maybe he wasn't "truely" enlightened. No one REALLY knows. So that said, I still have a hard time believing that SwamiG is a truely enlightened being after reading through all her complaining and such over having to still do things for herself and not being waited on hand and foot by her devotees. She may be on her way to enlightenment as we all are, and she may have the ability to transfer Shakti energy to others, but she has not transcended her ego nor her emotions it seems. And to me, someone living in 24/7/365 bliss would not be speaking the way she does, but would be able to be unattached to the suffering of this world.
In Love,
Re: Guru Swami G
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: August 24, 2013 09:06AM
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Critiques of Guru G on this same thread
From: nablusoss1008
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:12 pm
Subject: Confused aboiut Swami-G (was Re: Guru Dev's deathbed instructions to Maharishi
[groups.yahoo.com]
Quote
Namaste Swami-G.
Namaste and Maha Shanti OM -
> Thank you for taking the time to respond to my introduction.
G you are most welcome
>
> Do you hold classes or darshan in Los Angeles? I guess what I am
> asking is how does one go about meeting you and receiving darshan? I
G i am willing to hold Darshan and Satsang for any that wish to come to
recieve it. (for those who do not understand the term Darshan it means
basically the seeing of or being in the presence of the Guru) Satsang is
association with Truth and when one is here my life is this Truth so the
teachings just continue no matter where are what is taking place in life.
hahahahahhaahahah
This Guru *is* a Guru and i don't do courses.
* feel like I am ready to surrender and let go of what keeps me from the
> divine.
G this is a good attitude and one that i hope you continue with as things
progress.
* Would you mind explaining what diksha is? I am unfamiliar with this
term.
G Diksha is taking initiation into a path and under a Guru's specific
guidance. It is when done when one is ready to commit . ---
Within Diksha one is given more instruction and Mantras -- More
energy work ( i don't know of any other guru's that are giving hands on
energy work to their Sadhakas) ---- this is very unusual in this day and
time. ---- i give energy work --- Shaktipat to aide to accelerate ones
journey. i allow as much Darshan as Sadhakas wish again in order so
thier paths may be accelerated.
There are some comittments that must come from the one taking Diksha -
such as Following through on the practices AS given -
not in mixing teachings or teachers Unless it is approved by
this Guru.
Also one must remain in touch and give ongoing progress reports.
( it is hoped that these begin to open to aiding more in aiding
this Guru to keep the mission expanding in whatever way possible)
Sometimes one thinks more is better and so they want to go to other
teachers
retreats and classes etc. but many times rather than aiding it just brings
conflict and confusion. There are some think that ALL i need to do is
say i am going
to take Diksha --- get the mantras and then run and i can do it all on my
own. This is ego ME talking and in this eventuality the mantras will not
remain charged and you may fall away from the path entirely.
While it is True Sat Guru is ONE ----- it is also true that the
methodologies given
vary widely and so even though the basic pointing is the same as far as
the Reality of the Liberated state of Being again there is a vast
difference
in the Effectiveness of the Guru's to get you from point A to completion.
In the Traditional methodology, the Guru / chela relationship is a
sacred one
of Trust on both sides. There is loyalty on both sides. i am speaking
of the
Guru realitionship which IS a relationship One to One ------ not what is
popping up all over now where you couldn't get a moment of the Gurus
direct attention unless you are willing to give a million dollars.
Then a big
fanfare will be made and you would be fawned over for a time. (yes i have
seen this all to many times) i have seen as well to many gurus (?)
that are
selling courses and mantras at an exorbitant rate of money and their
effectiveness
has not been balanced --- neither can you get the much needed help when
things come up which you have no referance for. The Newest of these i have
encountered is saying You are So Smart that you Know when a practice isn't
working (well ego always wants something new) so that guru will oblige and
keep selling you another method at $200 plus a shot. In that ones case
there
is no Guru / chela commitment you may go to Any teacher or teaching you
want the more the merrier. Great marketing tool and you won't ever get
any depth
because you won't give things a chance to grow and root. The guru in
question in
4 years has amassed a multi million organization with centers all over
the world.
People love what feeds the ego. and these types of gurus will give out
a lot of ego
candy to keep one on the hook.
OK i realize on one level i appear to be tough like someone said aptly
the Dr. Phil
of the spiritual community. hahahahahahahaah --- but there is a lot of
laughter
too ---- when you meet me there is none of this the Guru is God and i
am the
only ONE who can reach this grand exalted state so put me on a pedestal.
you will find that i am very down to earth and nothing special as what
you find
when you come to the end of the path is that ever Present ONE Divine
Essence
which is ONE. OK - so one just enters into a Real state of Being minus the
distractions of monkey mind or driving desires etc. One enters the JOY
and for the
first time really starts Living. No ego games remain.
Humility isn't acting like a doormat it is simply coming to the 0
Point Balance of that
Simplistic ALL encompasing ONE Undisputable IS -------- and this IS
remains as the
Stillness which everything arises in - is penetrated by - and
dissolves back into.
One sees from the Cognition and Consciousness which is the hub of the
wheel.
The world revolves around this and there is Freedom. Simple - Pure -
Genuine.
Humility is taking the time to meet all where they are - and to give
whatever is
possible to aid them in thier inner journey to Clarity.
> Thank you for your time.
> Gary
You are most welcome
Thank you for asking about Diksha
Maha Shanti Om
Quote
Swami G herself in her own journey in the end was literally blasted by
her Guru who literally screamed in her face. This was when Swami G
thought she was enlightened because she knew it all and had siddhis ,
etc. He told he "YOU FOOL, YOU IDIOT, YOU KNOW NOTHING". At that
point, she litterally couldn't speak for days and really did not have
high regard for her Guru at that moment. Looking back, Swami G said
there is no doubt that if this had not taken place, she would still be
running on the hamster wheel of karma today.
One thing, by the way. Swami G 's enlightenment came about during open
eye meditation along the banks of the Gangies. She showed us the spot
where this took place. Swami G responded to a quesiton and said yes,
could be the Guru's use the methodologies that they themselves went
through which brought about their enlightenment. This is why I said
this path is extremely practical- and Swami G responded that it must
be practical- so the open eye meditation is on going all day.
This way, when the enlightenment comes about, it is stable, where as
if it is gained sitting in a cave, what happens to it when there is
interaction in the world ?
Anyway, in light of this, I once joked and said something like I would
never decalare I was advanced, for which we laughed. Swami G responded
to a question when asked how to get rid of ego so enlightenment
unfolds, the response was find a sat Guru that uses a velvet 2x4.
So, a Guru is looking for the spots that have to be blasted out
sometimes. Why would this be a pleasant job? and then the insults
directed at the Guru. This is something people really dont understand-
they think the Guru has no feelings and is a doormat that can be
walked all over for nothing can touch them.
My perceptions of it is that the sensitivity is even more than can be
imagined, and the smallest things touches them deeply- but what is it
touching and what is the result? They feel it deeply, I can;t say from
direct experience, but the attachement is gone as fast as a breath in
and breath out. this is why they can't hold on to past encouters, but
it doesnt mean it is not felt.
Being a Guru wears down on the body. If the Guru is doing the heart
felt job of being a Guru, then the karma of the disciples wears down
the body, - Swami G said this is a part of being a guru. It is not
surprising to see the body of a Guru go downhill quickly.
On one hand, they prolong the body because the disciples want this as
they need the guidance, they beg the guru to stick around. On the
other hand, the Guru while trying to oblige what the sadakas want in
this regard, are saturated with the silence and dont care about the
body, for they know 100% they are not the body and there is no
difference in their existence with or without it.
Again, I told Swami G that most people are not going to get past the
personality issue and tie in the persona with the Guru. Swami G
cautions the disciples not to think of the Guru as persona but
consciousness. Why did I say most people wont get past the personalty
and why is that I am saying I will?
Because the unimaginable happened- again, unimaginable means it can't
be imagined, it is like I got there, she touched me and poof, I go
into a lasting silence that is with me to this day. Without that
experience, it is only words. Not everyone will have this happen so
quicky, acording to Swami G.
Having my TM background, it would be interesting to see what others
with the same background has to say. actually, may as well spell out
the pertinant aspect of the TM background that i am talking about
here. I started TM at 19, was really high strung. Could even be that a
heart attack early in life may have been what was in the cards, so
could even be that without TM, the body wouldnt be here now. So, how
can I not honor TM?
I always made the time to be regular and give plenty of time and
attention to the practice. My meditaitons were deep, hard to compare
with anyone but they were deep, there was this degree where would call
it awareness of awareness was all that was there in meditation. then
the effects of it carried over into activity, everyone who has stuck
with it through the years would say that. But then in the last 5
years, this like significant bliss would be there for days at a time
in and out of meditation.
So, it would be interesting to hear from someone that had that sort of
background that then plunged into the path with Swami G. I am laughing
now because you can see the problem here with this senerio- why would
anyone with those comments about TM go anywhere?
Anyway, such is life, I didn't expect anyone here to be interested in
my path now even before I made the first post- there might be one-
remains to be seen, but certainly not having high expectations of
people lined up for Diksha from here.
Tanmay
Critiques of Guru G on this same thread
Quote
This is another source of confusion with her: In one way, she invites
you to discuss, and in another way, she acts as a Guru. Now she maybe
a Guru to Tanmay, but she certainly is not to us. Its not her job to
blast our spots, ego etc, because we didn't invite her or ask her to
do so. We may have other people who do this kind of thing for us or
not, but these are the people we asked or trust. That is, a guru
should be able to differentiate between a disciple, for whom he may do
some ego-work, and somebody outside. And for all those outside, he
should have a discussion on par, he should resort to logic and good
manners just like anybody.
With her I feel this constant switching between 'open discussion', but
then when it doesn't go well for her, she switches to Guru mode, and
says things like: 'you have only book-knowledge' (even though she
doesn't obviously know what knowledge you have), 'instead do practise'
(even though she doesn't know what practises you do, and what
experiences you have)
And the there is this funny CAPITAL LETTERS - ITS NOT SHOUTING BUT
JUST TO DISTINGUISH FOR CLARITYS SAKE. BUT ITS HARDER TO READ AND
STILL IMPOLITE AND EGOIC BECAUSE IT SUGGESTS THAT WHAT ONE SAYS IS SO
MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHAT ANYONE ELSE SAYS. So stop it. STOP IT.
From: nablusoss1008
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:12 pm
Subject: Confused aboiut Swami-G (was Re: Guru Dev's deathbed instructions to Maharishi
Quote
Anyway, such is life, I didn't expect anyone here to be interested in
> my path now even before I made the first post- there might be one-
> remains to be seen, but certainly not having high expectations of
> people lined up for Diksha from here.
>
>
> Tanmay
nablusoss1008 replied
With good reason. Most people here, possibly with a few exceptions, are
intelligent enough not to seek diksha from a "guru" who denounces
others because they have been secretaries or are wearing white (!)
Furthermore a great deal of the people here have done enough Tapas in
this liftime to be able to see through the big words of your "Guru".
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