Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: July 09, 2011 04:54PM
Re the 'Jesans' reference from Zeuszor, didn't those trekkies feature in the sci-fi novel that the ace reporter wrote (which I have not read, having some respect for my remaining brain cells) and which now functions as the real bible and cosmology for the JC's, his rip-off of another apocalyptic author's work, 'The Survivors' ?
I'll bet that tome is full of just the sort of false dilemmas that Malcolm has pinpointed above, with the hero of the piece, (a thinly disguised Dave Mckay, humble, noble, with a 'special ear' for gods whisperings and himself possessing a direct line back to gods ear) amazingly adept at coming up with miraculous life-saving solutions to those same false dilemmas.
Effort justification is a real bind.
I spent so much time and effort in the service of an ideal that even though I have a sneaking suspicion that the ideal has tarnished somewhat, I cannot admit to myself that I might have wasted so much time and effort in its service so I set my amazing brain, which is, among other things, a problem solving machine, to come up with torturous rationalisations and bizarre justifications for why my pursuit of the now tarnished ideal is not wasted at all really--and then I try really, really hard to believe the torturous and bizarre stuff because it is holding my current worldview together, for a while at least.
I now just call it conning myself, both my amazing brain and I understand that one, from too much experience, all too well.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2011 05:02PM by Stoic.
I'll bet that tome is full of just the sort of false dilemmas that Malcolm has pinpointed above, with the hero of the piece, (a thinly disguised Dave Mckay, humble, noble, with a 'special ear' for gods whisperings and himself possessing a direct line back to gods ear) amazingly adept at coming up with miraculous life-saving solutions to those same false dilemmas.
Effort justification is a real bind.
I spent so much time and effort in the service of an ideal that even though I have a sneaking suspicion that the ideal has tarnished somewhat, I cannot admit to myself that I might have wasted so much time and effort in its service so I set my amazing brain, which is, among other things, a problem solving machine, to come up with torturous rationalisations and bizarre justifications for why my pursuit of the now tarnished ideal is not wasted at all really--and then I try really, really hard to believe the torturous and bizarre stuff because it is holding my current worldview together, for a while at least.
I now just call it conning myself, both my amazing brain and I understand that one, from too much experience, all too well.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2011 05:02PM by Stoic.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: July 09, 2011 05:29PM
With no disrespect to Joe's family, my take on the situation is that Joe was raised in a god-fearing home, one that was intent on doing the best for its children by getting them to have ambition to do well in the world and contribute what they could of their skills and talents.
Joe was at a big turning point, going to college and on the brink of an adult life that perhaps began looking to him like a rigid path that had been too much influenced by others wants and needs, without taking into account his own newly sprouting wants and needs.
Joe is undoubtedly highly intelligent---intelligent people entertain doubt---doubt and the ability to entertain it is the foundation stone of intelligence. To doubt is uncomfortable for a time but its where new conclusions come from.
Dave McKay has a nose for doubt in others and he took swift advantage of Joe's natural doubts at a time of great change for him.
Had Joe taken a year off between school and college to explore whatever he wanted to explore with no expectations as to the conclusions he must reach--he may have been able to resist Dave McKay's artfully presented, but malignantly skewed solution to his dilemma.
As it is he is using his amazing brain to justify his entrapment, since on some level he cannot yet admit (he is still young and ignorant of the world) that he has jumped from the frying pan of his family's expectations for him into the fire of Dave McKay's megalomaniac dreams.
If he is half as smart as I think he is, that doubting will return and he will find his way out from under Dave McKay's oppressive influence. Whether he will return to his family depends on whether or not the family can accept that he is his own person, something that I think Joe is determined to demonstrate, regardless of a few wrongs turns in the finding.
Joe was at a big turning point, going to college and on the brink of an adult life that perhaps began looking to him like a rigid path that had been too much influenced by others wants and needs, without taking into account his own newly sprouting wants and needs.
Joe is undoubtedly highly intelligent---intelligent people entertain doubt---doubt and the ability to entertain it is the foundation stone of intelligence. To doubt is uncomfortable for a time but its where new conclusions come from.
Dave McKay has a nose for doubt in others and he took swift advantage of Joe's natural doubts at a time of great change for him.
Had Joe taken a year off between school and college to explore whatever he wanted to explore with no expectations as to the conclusions he must reach--he may have been able to resist Dave McKay's artfully presented, but malignantly skewed solution to his dilemma.
As it is he is using his amazing brain to justify his entrapment, since on some level he cannot yet admit (he is still young and ignorant of the world) that he has jumped from the frying pan of his family's expectations for him into the fire of Dave McKay's megalomaniac dreams.
If he is half as smart as I think he is, that doubting will return and he will find his way out from under Dave McKay's oppressive influence. Whether he will return to his family depends on whether or not the family can accept that he is his own person, something that I think Joe is determined to demonstrate, regardless of a few wrongs turns in the finding.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: July 09, 2011 09:38PM
Quote
Malcolm Wesley WREST
A situational trap?
Would you mean by that a "false dilemma" of some sort?
Say...
The Bible states that "the love of money is the root of all evil" and that we must seek "first" the Kingdom of God, hence the vast majority of those in paid employment (unless somehow sanctioned by McKay) are in fact in the unwitting service of Satan and we must necessarily reject the demands of a Godless society, by placing ourselves in God´s service by submitting to obediant membership in the nearest branch of the JesusChristians....
Where the initial noble assumtions, are not neccesarily followed by the simplistic "solutions" then provided....
Precisely. The false dichotomy of "work for love, not for money."
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: July 10, 2011 05:14AM
Quote
zeuszor
Have you ever heard of the Darley-Batson "Good Samaritan Study" (1973)? Not to get too far off-topic, but this is is one the more interesting studies that I have seen lately. Today I studied it thoroughly. Check this out.
[faculty.babson.edu]
bump
Re: Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: July 11, 2011 08:35AM
Quote
muppet
DM is particularly concerned that professional 'cult-busters' can impact negatively on their recruitment. He claimed that they have a fairly high record of success in 'brainwashing people against groups if they are able to get the person before they have had deep personal involvement in the group'.
This is one reason for the JC's ruthless recruitment strategies. The object is to get the recruit IN quickly before they have time to assess and question the beliefs and practises of the group with anyone else. Once the recruit is brought in, they are taught that they have already been brainwashed by their families and by society since birth and encouraged to be suspicious of them. Slick. Anyone who is convinced they have been brainwashed becomes very keen to alter that. Decisions made by the group are then slickly presented to the recruit alongside a less attractive option (eg choosing eternal damnation or choosing to die an unbeleiver ). Reminders that no one who puts his / her hand to the plough should look back are added. Questions are sidelined as evidence that the recruit does not have faith. Fear is the only alternative presented by the group who claim that society lives in fear (and not by faith) In this setting when a new recruit 'decides' to stay after the trial week, they are unaware that they have been the victime of coercive persuasion. The group are constantly reminded of how evil 'cultbusters' are and one by one are inducted to recruit in the same way, on the basis that we will all try to justify our own behaviour. Therefore the recruit who attempts to recruit others becomes doubly convinced that thry are doing the right thing. DM's letters on cognitive dissonance explain this. DM constantly reminds members that everything they do is their own decision ( lie) and that 'there are no locks on the doors' (but the only alternative option presented is going to hell ) . Door locks are not necessary when a mind has been chained.
Ex members are very brave people.
[forum.culteducation.com]
bump
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Apollo
()
Date: July 11, 2011 09:00AM
What a great post.
Whatever happened to Muppet?
Whatever happened to Muppet?
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: July 11, 2011 07:20PM
One would hope that Muppet has left this crap behind and gone on to a good, ordinary life.
Ex-members are very brave people.
[www.youtube.com]
Ex-members are very brave people.
[www.youtube.com]
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: July 11, 2011 07:39PM
BTW, just in the interests of full disclosure, the question I was asking of Blackhat in the pm I sent her was if she knew who the original Quaker was who advanced the money for the Takatifu Gardens purchase. The money and purchase was clearly intended to advance a benign Quaker missionary agenda in Kenya and not to underwrite a little personality cult headed by a tin-pot dictator.
This is clearly shown by the pic of Takatifu and the sign stating what it represents painted on the buiding. (see the visual archive thread.)
[forum.culteducation.com]
A clear case of misrepresentation by Dave McKay and his group, in my opinion, to gain access to unknowing recruits by borrowing the legitimacy and good reputation of the Quakers.
I wondered if the original benefactor was aware of the real sentiments of the JC's in Kenya and the purposes to which her generous gift was being put.
I am willing to post the correspondence string in its entirety, since Blackhat threatened to publish but did not follow through on the threat, but I do not think it of any great interest other than as a bit of distraction from the main purpose of this thread.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2011 07:42PM by Stoic.
This is clearly shown by the pic of Takatifu and the sign stating what it represents painted on the buiding. (see the visual archive thread.)
[forum.culteducation.com]
A clear case of misrepresentation by Dave McKay and his group, in my opinion, to gain access to unknowing recruits by borrowing the legitimacy and good reputation of the Quakers.
I wondered if the original benefactor was aware of the real sentiments of the JC's in Kenya and the purposes to which her generous gift was being put.
I am willing to post the correspondence string in its entirety, since Blackhat threatened to publish but did not follow through on the threat, but I do not think it of any great interest other than as a bit of distraction from the main purpose of this thread.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2011 07:42PM by Stoic.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Apollo
()
Date: July 12, 2011 05:24AM
Blackhat's recent threatening behaviour is disappointing but not surprising.
Stoic, it was a reasonable question to ask. You owe no explanation to anyone. Blackhat only saw it as an opportunity to seek your personal details. It appears her main goal now is to identify people. The vast majority of her postings are now geared towards picking apart our postings in a negative way and trying to identify us. She no longer has an interest in Dave McKay and his cult.
There's absolutely no doubt McKay was using the Quakers name to gain a foothold in the area. The local school who were involved in the reading program and the parents who allowed their children to attend the running club were clearly under the impression that they were dealing with local Quakers and not the Jesus Christians cult.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2011 05:25AM by Apollo.
Stoic, it was a reasonable question to ask. You owe no explanation to anyone. Blackhat only saw it as an opportunity to seek your personal details. It appears her main goal now is to identify people. The vast majority of her postings are now geared towards picking apart our postings in a negative way and trying to identify us. She no longer has an interest in Dave McKay and his cult.
There's absolutely no doubt McKay was using the Quakers name to gain a foothold in the area. The local school who were involved in the reading program and the parents who allowed their children to attend the running club were clearly under the impression that they were dealing with local Quakers and not the Jesus Christians cult.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2011 05:25AM by Apollo.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 12, 2011 05:39PM
To whom it may concern:
Blackhat has been banned from this message board.
Blackhat has been banned from this message board.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.