Dave has been misrepresenting some of the commments and questions I posted, pretending that he has refuted them. He is employing cheap straw man tactics in an attempt to dump the Children of God connection and sidestep some uncomfortabel questions. It is common knowledge that JC literature is heavily based on Berg literature. Dave himself claimed that he started out as a COG shepherd. There is no doubt that the group evolved and developed its own distinctive ethos in the years that followed, moving away from the Family but taking the Berg teachings with them. The roots remain the same.

Many JC antics are a repeat of the COG antics; the prophets of doom, the silent prophets, the money burning, the walks of faith, church tasting and infiltration. The new recruits are not aware that it is mainly copycat.
Perhaps Dave himself has forgotten what he posted on an ex Family board .

link [www.exfamily.org]

[i:c05c008809]'I am the member who was once associated with the Family. My wife was never a member, and I spent only a couple of weeks away from her and living with the Family more than a quarter of a century ago, [b:c05c008809]before I decided to take advantage of a rule that said one could become a "shepherd" by setting off on their own and getting another disciple or two. I returned to my family, enlisted my children as members, and then proceeded to receive postings from the Family (COGs then) as a shepherd.[/color:c05c008809] It always frustrated the Family that they did not have me conveniently under their thumb, and eventually Cherry agreed to leave the church scene if I would leave the Family,[/b:c05c008809] and the two of us set off on our own, along with our own children. Thus the Jesus Christians were born.
The similarities between us and the Family are [b:c05c008809]many[/b:c05c008809]; but almost none of them relate to sexual matters. We appreciate the idea of more open and frank discussion of issues which deeply concern young people, but our community on the whole tends to be regarded as opposite to the extreme, because we do not believe in divorce, remarriage, homosexuality, adultery, or even kissing and cuddling between engaged couples.
Dave McKay <fold@idl.net.au>
Newcastle, NSW Australia - Nov 29, 2003'[/i:c05c008809]

link [www.exfamily.org]

( Confused that he claims he was the ONLY one from the JC's involved in the Family but that here he claims he enlisted his own children/ family ! )


It was common knowledge in Australia in the 80's that the JC's distributed COG lit.
[www.culthelp.info]

Extract from very old Australian article available from the site above relating to the source of literature distributed by JC's ( aka Christians)

[i:c05c008809]
'THE CHRISTIANS

A religious group from Australia is operating on the streets of Britain. They call themselves simply "Christians". They are a breakoff from the Children of God.

On the surface they appear to be a group of young people who are simply trying to live according to the pattern of the early church,and disseminating the Gospel through the use of literature. Their literature comes in the form of booklets and comic books which they exchange for a few pence to "cover the cost of printing".

The teaching contained in these booklets is radical and uncompromising in its nature, attacking and condemning what they see as the hypocrisy of organised religion and a society greedy for material gain.

However what most people are unaware of is that much of the material contained in these booklets are either reprints of,or are based on the literature of the infamous religious cult the "Children of God/Family of Love"[/color:c05c008809]

The story of "Christians" begins in Australia with David McKay who was at one time national public relations officer of the Bible Society(Australia); he was also a lay preacher and youth worker in the Methodist church; later became active in the Assemblies of God Pentecostal movement; and a one time member of the Children of God/Family of Love cult. This background may explain the reason for some of his distorted interpretations of Christian doctrine, and some of their bizarre publicity seeking activities.

Like the COG/FOL,and numerous other cults and extreme groups the McKays actively encourage young people to leave their homes and families; to discontinue college and university, leave employment; and join their "family" and become itinerant "preachers"

For years the McKays have been telling people to quit working for money and "trust God to provide their needs", yet in 1989 the group clashed with the Australian authorities over their members receiving unemployment benefits!

Their enthusiasm, daring and apparent sincerity are obviously impressive to a lot of idealistic young people, however, this is a group which demands total loyalty under the threat of God's judgment. To leave the group is perceived as leaving the will of God. This type of emotional blackmail is typical of all destructive cults.'[/i:c05c008809]


Not the same groups but the same rotten roots.

[b:c05c008809]Interesting addition[/b:c05c008809]

The archives of Crossfire exist at NDN. Use the details here to search the archives for this post. Who knows how genuine it is, but it is very interesting letter.
Here is the header and the website is www.newdaynews.com
The Crossfire board has closed but the archives remain.
NewDayNews Crossfire
Re: NO ONE CAN!!
By:YOU CANT STOP THEM!!
Date: Thursday, 27 March 2003, at 12:41 pm
In Response To: NO ONE CAN!! (YOU CANT STOP THEM!!)

Finally his pronouncement of my identity is mistaken. Who was it at NDN who said This guy cant even get his false accusations right !

It looks like David has had a change of heart and has become more amenable to answering my questions.

[welikejesus.com]

David wrote:

[welikejesus.com]

Quote

Thanks, Brian. Ex-members are ex-members. For one reason or another, they have either left or been asked to leave because their goals and values are not the same as our own. There will be differences in how each of them describes their reasons for not being members of us, but they would probably ALL have criticisms of our community. If they did not, they would probably still be members, although even those of us who are members have criticisms.

You really have to ask the ex-members what it is (specifically) that they disagree with. We have set up the flame thread to allow them to do that. You can read plenty of complaints there. Perhaps you may be able to summarise them better than me, but I would say that they have found the disciplines required of Jesus Christians to be disciplines that they do not wish to be subject to. The community would have, at some stage criticised them, and they didn't like it.

Often the community has expressed its disagreement in terms of saying that the person is "out of the spirit", i.e. no longer following God, but just acting selfishly. The fact that so many ex-members have turned against God does seem to bear that out, even though many of them left saying that they would show us that they have NOT fallen away from God.

Ex-members of the JCs, can you describe for me please why you tend to be critical of that group, and what your main objections are?

Quote
zeuszor

Ex-members of the JCs, can you describe for me please why you tend to be critical of that group, and what your main objections are?

Hmmm. OK, lets go for another trip around the merry go round.

[b:7ce780fbd7][list:7ce780fbd7]1. David teaches and utilises deception (see past discussions about thefts and welfare fraud)

2. David teaches his group to IGNORE the teachings of Jesus in favour of his own interpretations (see Killers for Jesus thread where Dave justifies killing people when circumstances dictate)

3. David teaches his followers to run roughshod over the top of the feelings and concerns of family members by teaching them that they no longer have to have any contact with family members unless they accept JC doctrines of the group having final say on who comes in to there house.

4. David uses emotional blackmail on members families, ex members, and his own children by stating that they will not be permitted to see loved ones unless they comply with his dictates.

5. David teaches his members that it is OK to whip people for sins they have committed against his group (see discussion about the Kenyan volunteer they whipped on their "Quaker" community)

6. David teaches his members that there is no force involved in sexual relations between a child and an adult paedophile (see discussions on his forum under the "sex thread")

7. David teaches that third world women are intrinsically bad because their lust and wantoness for western materialism motivated them to seduce their husbands away from Jesus

8. David teaches that he is an "annointed apostle" without which all would be led astray.

9. David has reversed his original "Churchianity VS Christianity" teachings by teaching the above "annointed apostle" doctrine as it negates previous teachings about each member having a direct connection to God without the need of hiearchial structures.

10. David directed his community to "break" one of his children, while ignoring the emotional crisis the son was experiencing.

11. David has created an atmosphere of peer pressure for males to receive vascetomies.

12. David teaches that biblical passages related to "living sacrifices" and "He who has two should give to those who have none" relate to body parts.

13. David undermines the goals of families by covertly meeting with children, legally minors, to sow seeds of doubt in their minds about their parents motivations. The end result is that the family is ripped asunder, resulting in them experiencing loss and grief.

14. David takes people to court for money if they criticise him

15. David teaches his members that begging for donations on the street in order to meet a strict distribution quota is not working for money. In reality his has become the like thief master in Oliver Twist teachings the kids how to rob passerbys.

16. David falsely claims to have "forsaken all", while having NEVER relinquished his position of authority within the JC's or having ever worked as an equal in a community. He also happily lives in government flat provided by Australian welfare while members live in vans.

17. David teaches that manipulation is good, and proves the point by pretending to be a concerned mother writing to cult busting groups about her son who had been sucked into his group (see discussion about "Anita Foster").

18. David teaches that ex members have fallen away from God, because they disagree with his teachings.
[/list:u:7ce780fbd7][/b:7ce780fbd7]

Well that should do for starters. The list really seems to go on and on and on. But, I think there a few there, and I am only one member. I am sure the others have more.

Another old post from NewDayNews Crossfire about the MEETING

NewDayNews Crossfire
revolute change or die
By:WARS NEW TACTICS
Date: Wednesday, 26 March 2003, at 2:36 pm
Every thing must revolute or face stagnation the Jesuschristians have changed battle plans now its the rich Hollywood etc that is being saturated with their message. The Family Trust Freelance and David Mckay and some Jesuschristians met recently pray for them!
LOVE TO ALL

This is a strange one.
It contains a letter which appears to be addressed to David Freelance.



Again it comes from the Crossfire archives at www.newdaynews.com and can be traced there by searching the archive and using the posters name, subject or date and time.

[i:1429a8779e]'NewDayNews Crossfire
Re: NO ONE CAN!!
By:YOU CANT STOP THEM!!
Date: Thursday, 27 March 2003, at 12:41 pm
In Response To: NO ONE CAN!! (YOU CANT STOP THEM!!)
> BUt Jesus! They are on the move fighting
> praying witnessing warning in spite of
> tremendous odds and persecution it will go
> down in HISTORY GODStory the only reliable
> one that this is a do or die sink or swim
> move of God you people should look for
> virtue rather than condemn them!
> God bless David Mckay Freelance and the
> Family
> You should see what the Family says about
> them!!!
> They will be in the Family news soon SELAH
> LOVE TO ALL

To David Freelance and David Mckay.

Dear David,
I wanted to start this note out to you with an apology. We in no way were meaning to be offensive to you, or to David McKay. We have not heard any discriminating reports about you, all we knew is that you were a friend of the Family and were receiving the Winepress magazine, and had written to let us know you were joining up with the Jesus Christians.
You mentioned that you thought we would catch the vision that there was a Christian movement seeking friendship and fellowship, and I'm sorry to say that we did not understand that point from your note, or what it is you are expecting from us. We just wanted to be an encouragement to you and Mr. McKay and tell you and the Jesus Christians that we admire their work and are praying for you and them.
We are sorry that it offended you that we mentioned that you were not an official representative of the Family, but we understood from what you were writing that you are some sort of personal assistant and confidant of Mr. McKay, and we just wanted to make it clear to him that you were not a present Family member, or representative of the Family, but were a friend and a Winepress member, and I'm so sorry if it sounded derogatory in any way, as that was not the intention.
We of course do not look down on Winepress members as second class.
They are friends and supporters of the Family, and for that we are very
thankful. The Family has varying degrees of membership, from friends of the Family, to live outs, to Activated Members, to Fellow Members, to Charter Members. Each level of membership is different, but that does not mean it is inferior. So again, please accept my apologies for having not
expressed things well in my previous note.
We sincerely respect you and David McKay and the work you are doing, and from the Jesus Christians website, it appears that your group is really trying to get the message out in the form of classes and articles on a great variety of subjects. We know that this sort of thing is very needed and there are many, many lost, despondent and hopeless people out there who need faith and encouragement, and we respect your efforts to bring them a bit of hope and guidance and comfort. You are doing a great work, and we are happy to support you in our prayers, as we know you support us in yours.
I did want to also make it clear that the previous letter which disappointed you so much was written by me and not in any way dictated by Maria or Peter. They know of the Jesus Christians and send their love and prayers to you and David McKay and all in your fellowship, and wish you the best of luck in your endeavors to reach the world for Christ.
I pray that my apology has been accepted and that I have been forgiven.
Love and prayers,
Ashley'
[/i:1429a8779e]

A reminder of the lengths he will go to (The Fox program again)


[www.myfoxla.com]


Like Berg before him, Dave has nothing but contempt the likes of you and me.

I just spent some time over at the JC's message board, they seemed quite willing to answer questions and engage in dialogue. Dave can be a bit snappy but no more than myself. I know that ridiculing Dave probably makes you fell better but I don't know if its all that productive. It probably just makes the other members more defensive of him and more convinced that their is some sort of conspiracy against him. However given that all the JC's read their board, maybe posting clear, concise and logical rebuttals of their doctrines might be more effective. For instance they take Luke 14:33 as a literal command of Jesus, when in context it is clearly not literal. Having been in cult, I know that your unlikely to make little headway but at least challenging how they think is a good start to get them thinking through things for themselves. (Which they do claim they do already.)

[welikejesus.com][/b]

Dear Zeusor,

Daivds' latest attempt to formally "avoid answering your question" in writing, has no doubt been posted as he has felt the need to at least "keep up appearances" by seeming to address the issues you have raised....well done, Zeusor.

The reasons for becoming an "ex-member"....?

As Apostate has already so aptly remarked the "list could go on" and it is difficult to contribute further to his fine effort, but perhaps I could elaborate a little further on Apostates Point 2 (David disregards the teachings of Christ) and Point 16 (Retention of "power" is the treasure in which Davids heart lies...hence that is what he so urgently needs to forsake).

At the risk of repeating myself, the Magna Carta and the American Constitutions, for all their flaws, do attempt to enshrine some of the rights that (I believe) naturally derive from the principles of "doing unto others as you would have done unto you" and from recognizing that being prepared to "lay down your life" for others is the ultimate yardstick of the seriousness with which we are admonished to practice Christs "love", and from the personal qualities outlined in the Sermon on the Mount and in many of the parables. Hobbes also touched on some of these principles in his work "Leviathan", albeit in less secular detail.

David routinely flaunts any consideration of these "biblical" rights and principles in the day to day operations of the Jesus Christians. (Argued away in his mind that the "greater good" he is acheiving necessitates such sacrifices on the part of others...all in the name of the "cause" you see.)

The Jesus Christians have "devolved" into a variant of how the worlds remaining Communists interpret the world "external" to themsleves. As those outside the organization are not "Jesus Christians" they are not part of the "revolution" and thus they are of no ultimate consequence, and may be treated accordingly. In terms of "communication strategies" the "louder" and "longer" they persevere with a lie, the JC's believe that they will eventually force others to deal with them in relation to the dishonest terms they have set. Public humiliation and "self-confession" are tools of trade along with isolating "non-conformists" and requiring them to "fast and pray" until they can prove they no longer threaten the "revolution" (..or least no longer threaten by implication, it's leaders!).

KIM Jong-Ill would be "proud" of what he could see in David!

David states "ex-members" must no longer share the "goals" of the community. In many ways I am theologically the same as when I left all those years ago....it's just easier now to see that what some may claim about themselves by "forsaking all" and "living by faith" doesn't neccessarily make them any more obediant to Christs example.