Sounds like you do.

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zeuszor
Because, after all, what he teaches has nothing to do with what Jesus (nor the rest of the New Testament for that matter) teaches. He really does not care what the Bible says; therefore the emperor wears no clothes so to speak. The group basically sees him as God's end-time prophet and follows his words without question. Do I understand sir?

This is because of McKay's poor hermaneutical principles. If he'd use the historical-critial rather than the allegorical method of hermaneutics, he would find himself forced to change some of his dogmas. In taking the teachings of Jesus literally, we need to recognize certain figures of speech. Sometimes Jesus would employ humor, other time he'd use an analogy. There were also times when he was quite bluntly literal and to the point. However, McKay has failed to do that. Of course his refusal to read materials that may disagree with him puts him in a bad position as well. Certainly he could read the Book of Concord online and examine ever point it brings up and cross reference with scripture (verse references are provided by the BoC itself). I have also made the offer on the other forum to e-mail "Infant Baptism and Adult Conversion" by the Lutheran pastor Ole Halesby from 1924 to anyone that sends an e-mail to me asking for it. I am even willing to include the BoC and World English Bible too (I love pdf files). Seems to me though that McKay hasn't asked yet or I'd send him these materials to consider. Nobody should consider themselves above criticism and rebuke. I know I am not, nor should McKay or anyone be.

I may be wrong in wanting to become a Lutheran pastor, but that is only because I may be woefully unqualified, even once I have earned my M. Div. So far, I don't think McKay has even finished an Associate of Arts/Science/Theology degree. Perhaps he could consider earning a degree by means of correspondense, even if only an accounting degree (better something than nothing). Education and wisdom go hand in hand. You really can't have one without the other.

In other words, layman's terms so to say, being a Christian does not mean that one must give away all of his stuff, refuse to work for money, and hate his family, right? It's a rhetorical question; of course being a Christian does not mean those things. If these things, Jesus' harder sayings were meant to be taken literally, then how come there aren't a lot of blind Christians, or one-handed Christians, running around, you know? Well, right?

Jesus addresses each of us as individuals and never said that absolute renunciation is for everybody. Please consider the examples of the centurion, and Zaccheus (was a we little man, and a wee little man was he...remember that children's song?)

DM has apparently never renounced squat, in any sense of the word "renounced." Everybody in the JCs must "forsake all" except for DM and his consort.

Please explain to us these two hermaneutical principles you mention, blacksheep? Compare and contrast?



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2008 10:17AM by zeuszor.

Quote
zeuszor
Please explain to us these two hermaneutical principles you mention, blacksheep? Compare and contrast?

Fair enough. Also relatively easy.

I will start with the allegorical method. In this method, you take a certain concept or element of scripture and then interpret it accord to what you may be looking for. An extreme example of this would be Pope Gregory the Third. In his commentary on the patriarch Job, he said that Job represented the true church and that the three "friends" represented the heretics who opposed the church. In a similiar manner, Tim LaHaye uses this method of interpretation to explain away the "last trumpet" issue of 1 Cor. 15:51 by saying that it is a call to christians to "retreat" in the rapture (this explanation conflicts with Rev.8).


The Historical-Critical is also known as the Grammatical-Historical or Grammatical-Literal. This is the method in which scripture says what it says. If it says to love your enemies, that is what it says. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't feel hurt, but we should not seek revenge. When it says that that last trumpet will sound, that means that there is a last trumpet and none beyond that.

Here is a better example, borrowing from one of my own issues with McKay's teaching. Baptism.

It is true that scripture says that Jesus never baptized anyone. Yet Jesus went and sought out John to baptize him. Furthermore, Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit. Using the Historical-Critical, one would evaluate the original language of the text, in this case Greek, and would be led to conclude that Jesus really meant for believers to baptize and by water at that. There is no indication as to how much water, nor should it be an issue. Truthfully, when it comes to baptism, I see no difference between one who is immersed or one whom water was poured upon (such as is common in the Lutheran church). To me, both have been legtimately baptized and hence there is no difference.


To create a crude summary, the Allegorical method allows scripture to say whatever the interpreter wants it to say. The Historical-Critical only says what was written. It is the responsibility of the interpreter to understand what is written and then understand how it still applies today.

Jesus said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's". Unfortunately, this means that it is lawful to pay taxes however it also means we should still love and worship God (as God enables us).

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blacksheep

Jesus said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's". Unfortunately, this means that it is lawful to pay taxes however it also means we should still love and worship God (as God enables us).

Dave uses this famous passage to justify deceiving the larger community. His response generally is "once you give all to God you have nothing left to give to Caesar", while failing to take into account that Jesus did in fact give to the larger community via tax so that their roads and sewage systems could be built. To Dave this was Jesus being "sly"

I would think that McKay and Luther would have had a serious disagreement in doctrine and dogma had McKay lived then and spoken german. It seems to me that Luther would have likely had little in the way of good to say regarding McKay's teachings. I should think that Spalatin or Melancthon would have had nothing good to say either. Naturally this line of reasoning is based upon a biography of the german reformer that I recently read (bought it for a buck at the local dollar store - go figure).

Certainly McKay could try to draw a parallel between what he is doing and what Luther did. However, the split from the church is about where the parallel both starts and stops. Luther sought reform of doctrines that he felt were not valid according to scripture. McKay seems to seek to abolish doctrines, regardless of whether or not they are valid according to scripture.

Luther encouraged gainful employment.
McKay does not.

Luther said it is right and just for a Christian to serve in the military.
McKay say it isn't.

Luther felt that the sacraments and liturgy should be lived.
McKay denies both.

Luther spoke of love and doing good works for the sake of love, backing it up with action.
McKay may speak this, but actions speak louder.

Luther said this what is written in scripture, we must accept and follow it as it is written.
McKay says scripture says this and we need not accept and follow it as it was written.


I could probably do more contrasts between Luther and McKay, but I think that is enough. Let me know if I'm off base on this.

My hesitation with such a comparison is that it is possibly too restrictive to contain it to Dave and Luther. I think exposure would reach a greater audience by comparing his actions to universal ethics or human rights. Just my 2 cents worth.

Dear Zeusor,

I'm sure that you have covered many of the issues, far more succinctly than I. I went to the pains of addressing the points that Furry Faerie had raised in detail, as I believe that he had intended to use the material that he had painstakingly scoured from another service on this site, to attempt to ridicule, those who criticize McKay. (Their criticisms of McKay are "incompatible" with the very doctrines of the web-site that hosts them)....a feeble "point-scoring" attempt on Furry Faeries' part, that perhaps didn't even merit being rebuffed....but for the little it was worth, I thought I'd do what I could to rebut it.

Caseys' quote again(with thanks to Apostate)

Casey asks: [welikejesus.com] 
So, if Dave was not disconnecting the battery of a severely terminally mentally retarded boy's wheelchair to stop him from driving into traffic or some other dangerous area, and he wasn't stopping some kind of temper tantrum from a naughty boy then why would he have disconnected the battery (if he did indeed disconnect it)? 


(Ummm....FYI Casey, the man is unscrupulous to the point of psychopathic dementia who sadistically enjoys whatever crude exercise of power he may unethically hold over others. You are defending him Casey, in order to prevent the world you are now trapped in and now pyschologically dependent on, from falling apart around you.)


Caseys' quote is of course frightening in that clearly indicates to what degree that the Jesus Christians will engage in utter dishonesty in order to perpetuate the fraud that David McKay is in some way remotely “Christ like”.


Casey is, of course, here emulating Davids’s strategy of “escalation” (continually “raising the stakes” by ever more vehement and abusive denial, the strength of the tantrum itself being a substitute for the lack of any strength in the argument).

Private-Eyes has already reminded us how cold-hearted and calculatingly David attempts to delude whoever will pause to listen to him, (however briefly) with the outrageous lie that Reinehardt was “without provocation” subject to “murderous attack”….

The blackness of the mans’ heart laid bare, once again……that Casey will defend no matter what, no matter who may suffered along the way....Casey's sickness being frightening....



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2008 10:53PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

What is interesting to me, Malcolm, in regards to the Reinhardt, event is that it seems as though there are two different issues at play. True, Reinhardt was foolish not to leave and hence would be considered guilty of "criminal tresspass". However, I have to wonder about how much contact they had with Joe prior to the incident. It is one thing to kidnap somebody, another to take somebody that wants to go, and yet another thing to convince somebody to go so that though it may really be a kidnapping, the one being taken doesn't believe so.

Still, I see a serious challenge ahead for the JC community. Nobody lives forever. Sooner or later McKay will die. This is a simple fact of life that everyone must face. I may have overlooked it last time I looked in on the JC forum, but I do not know of anyone who is presently in a position to carry on when McKay moves on into eternity. Further, once this event has occurred, I question whether or not the JC community will be able to continue to exist. In simple terms, we may all need to be ready to help the former members reintegrate into society. Certainly we should not seek to deny thier spirituality, but rather we should help them seek healthy outlets for using that same spirituality and perhaps help reinforce it with a proper understanding of scripture (all they seem to know comes from the twisting scripture). The hardest part is convincing them that some of the things they were doing are in direct violation of God's moral law. Buying tools to repair a vehicle (to use an example already provided) and then return the tools after completing the work, saying that you aren't satisfied with them, is a violation of "Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness" and perhaps also "Thou Shalt Not Steal".

Right now we can only watch, wait, comment, and help when possible.

JESUS CHRISTIANS NEWSLETTER #101, JUNE 2008

The re-write of Ash's kidney donation saga is scheduled for broadcast
on the ABC in Australia on Monday, June 2, at 8pm. (It may have
already aired by the time you read this, but it should still be
possible to see it online at the ABC's web site
[www.abc.net.au] The Australian Story forum can be
found at
[www2b.abc.net.au].) Ash
has returned to Australia just in time for it, in the event that
there is further media interest in what he is doing.

Ash has been working on a bicycle recyling project in Sydney, and
hopes to resume it now that he is fully recovered from the surgery.
Hopefully, together we can get a full container load of bicycles to
ship to Kenya for use by orphans and others over there as their
primary means of transportation in the interior.

AUSTRALIAN QUAKERS

The Quaker Ministry and Oversight Committee of the local meeting
where Dave and Cherry are members has sent an official request to the
Regional Meeting for Dave's membership to be terminated on the
grounds that he did not "address" issues raised by the Ministry and
Oversight Committee. In fact, Dave addressed the issues at length in
two emails, and sent a third pointing that out, but the Committee
chose to pretend that those emails were never received. Word is that
"addressing" an issue means, to them, acknowledging the infallibility
of the committee in the judgments they passed in Dave's absence. We
will state our primary complaint once again, which is that the
committee has operated almost exclusively on gossip and innuendo, and
has not once made any serious attempt to listen to anything that Dave
or Cherry have had to say. No meeting had ever been arranged for
that purpose. Discussion on this topic can be found at
[welikejesus.com]

TRAVELS

Barry, Dave, and Cherry have headed off on a tour of Australia and
are reporting good receptions along the way. In particular, they
have visited some of Barry's relatives, and have visited an
Australian Aboriginal missionary who is spending a few weeks in
Australia on furlough before returning to the orphanage that she runs
in Kenya.

Kim is back in Australia at the moment, visiting relatives and doing
visa and passport business for herself and Fran.

Ross has returned from an extended outreach in Melbourne, and is
gearing up for the World Youth Day in Sydney next month. Israel is
back in Australia and working with Ross again too.

A NEW BOOK

Dave has finished the first draft of the third book in his endtime
trilogy ("Destroyers"). It can be seen on our welikejesus.com forum.
Just click on [welikejesus.com]

KENYA

Robin was photographed by a national newspaper in Kenya, after he
rescued a man from death at the hands of a lynch mob. Robin had been
in town doing some business when he spoted the crowd beating into the
suspected pickpocket. Robin walked through the crowd, pulled the man
out, and carried him to the nearest authorities where he could
receive treatment for his wounds. The photo of Robin carrying the
injured man appeared in the Standard Newspaper. You can see a copy
of it here: [welikejesus.com]

After two years in the country, Casey has contracted malaria for the
first time. Ironically, although most of the rest of the team got
bouts of malaria last year, so far nobody else has come down with
symptoms of the desease this year.

We were invited to a local girls high school, to inspire the students
about the message of peace. The girls were enthused about the
message and purchased hundreds of peace t-shirts after the sermon.
We have also experimented with selling the t-shirts on the streets in
the nearest town, with great success.

A young boy knocked on our door one evening asking for help, as he
had been chased away from his house. He had wounds from where he had
been cut by a machete. His grandmother, who has a drinking problem,
is his only guardian, as both his parents have passed away. Many
abused children now roam the streets of the nearest town. When a
mother dies, the father usually remarries. The new wife often
dislikes the children of the previous wife, feeling threatened that
they will eventually make a claim on the land. This is particularly
true of boys, who are the majority of the street children in towns.
The local administration office has a responsibility to take care of
the needs of these children, but is unable to do so due to corruption
and lack of infrastructure

AVP workshops continued this month after the organizers had set a
goal of one hundred basic workshops within the next few months.
Giddy, who has been helping to facilitate many workshops at Takatifu
Gardens, our volunteer centre, has moved up the ranks from apprentice
to become one of the main facilitators. The work has been sometimes
exhausting, both for the facilitators and those of us catering for
all the participants. However, we are hopeful that the workshops are
having a positive effect on the surrounding area.

Robin constructed a chicken coop for our three chickens, one of whom
is sitting on several eggs waiting for them to hatch. He also built
a woodshed to store much of the wood that has been lying around our
compound. In addition to the chickens we now have 14 rabbits,
including a new black buck that we recently purchased to mate with
the many white does we have.