There certainly are some unfruitful works of darkness going on over there, and it seems that Chris, with his new endarknement, feels right at home in it all! They are saying that, now that Chris has turned on us, we are going to turn on him and say nasty things about him. Well, I guess they are right, because now I'm saying that he belongs with those people, and they themselves know that it is one of the nastiest things one could say about anyone! Ha

"endarknement"... is that a new JC word? Don't worry I won't make "alot" out of it. "Ha"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2008 01:01PM by apostate.

Simple Simon says:

See, I was gonna say that, but thought it inappropriate


Dave, do you ever get embarrassed that your followers operate on a "monkey see, monkey do" basis?

"SEE", they like to imitate how you constantly make a point by using the word "SEE" when they start their sentences.



Personally I feel embarrassed watching the actions of clones... embarrassed for them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2008 01:10PM by apostate.

Yes, you've pegged my identity correctly. I purposely mentioned my desire to become a Lutheran pastor for that reason. I didn't want to seem like some new guy who was totally clueless. However, I am surprised by I've learned tonight. Please correct me if I have this wrong:

Lisa owns the JC website?

Such being the case that does explain quite a bit. Further, in my opinion, it means that Dave has sold out to some degree, in that Lisa only seems to adhere to those tenents of the Christian faith that are convenient to her. Anything she finds incovenient, she dismisses, hence her fatally flawed aggression towards those who believe in the Genesis account of creation and the origins of the universe. However, the flaws in Lisa's opinion are not the issue I am concerned with. I see something worse. It seems to me that in a real, albeit transparent, way, Lisa is really the leader of the JCs. That is to say she could choose to ban Dave if it pleased her, hence he is forced to "tow the line" when Lisa seeks to shut down somebody that disagrees with her. Certainly she'll help Dave when he seeks to make a point regarding something, but if Lisa says something heretical, Dave had best back her up. I hope that I have that correct.

Early on I saw the evolution/creation thread as pointless. Still I did try to debate, only for Lisa to try to shut me down, as many here did witness (her little website about that river bed in Texas being a hoax is, in itself, a deliberate hoax, but it seems that Lisa doesn't really do her homework, she just vomits what the establishment tells her to, which is contrary to Dave's teachings). I did try to petition Dave to shut down the thread, but that request fell upon deaf ears, as I have seen.

I don't hate the JCs as an organization. Indeed, some of the teachings have validity. However, I wonder if some of those teachings aren't being taken to an unhealthy extreme. Also, there are definately some obvious internal problems that need some serious redressing. Here are the ones I see:

1. Dave is getting old. This is not a concern in and of itself, rather it creates the question of whether or not there is a structure in place for somebody to assume leadership before Dave is received into eternity.

2. Doctrine. A solid doctrinal statement is an absolute must for any Christian organization. Often this doctrine can be presented in the form of a creed or similiar such statement of faith. Otherwise, how can one possibly know with certainty what the JCs truly believe?

3. Theology. Yes, the JCs as an organization claim to believe the teachings of Christ Jesus and that is the foundation of thier theology. However, unless they have scholars who have attended accreditted schools and earned degrees in theology, it is hard to determine when they move from exegesis and into "exit Jesus".

4. Hermaneutics. Exactly what is the preferred method for interpreting scripture in the JC community as a whole and for Dave, in and of himself? Technically there are only two known methods of interpretation, though a multitude of titles for these methods. In simple terms, they are the allegorical method and the historical critical/grammatical-literal method. The allegorical allows the most flexiblity, but the least amount of accuracy. The historical critical is the least flexible and yet it is the most accurate, though it also demands a higher degree of education. Unfortunately, I've seen both methods applied when reading through the "Bible Study Quiz", often time together on a single verse.

5. References. Aside from scripture, what other outside references are used and recommended? I use Strong's Analytical Concordance for referencing the greek text and meaning so I can hopefully understand english passages I am uncertain of. In like manner I use the writing of Josephus to help me to understand the historical element of when the scriptures where penned, thus helping me to understand the cultural elements that I don't always grasp. I don't see any of this with the teachings of Dave. (how on earth can you get shepherd from bishop? Bishop has always meant father and the KJV only uses that term as bishop/father was a common title for a church pastor in 1611).

6. Education. I honestly feel that more study is needed. Wisdom comes with the seeking of knowledge. However, a lack of education will undoubtedly cause the other things I have mentioned.

All of this is correctable. The question is whether or not it will be. At the moment I am unable to log into my account on the JC forum. I am going to presume a glitch of some sort until this becomes a more regular occurance (even wireless internet has its problems, oh well, nothing in this life is perfect).

Oh, another message board about the JC's. Such infamy, such glory! Now two sites dedicated to DM! So much to keep up with! Dave must be basking in the sunshine with that one! And Privatise is there too. Is he the innocent Quaker man on that forum too?

Hey Dave, you better list that one on the "Projects" link!

Blackhat, you stating Privatise is in on that site, made me curious and I thought I'd take a look.

Just for the record, the poster who is posting on that site, using that name (Privatise) is not me.

Dear Blacksheep, (I will use the title you have created for yourself),

Well.....God bless you for trying to remain involved (with the JC's)!! God knows they needed you....Any non-adversarial "association" with this site and with those who post on it....will though mean the end of your "access" to the JC's....may God reward you for the effort that you've put into your postings with them. May they be used to help "save" whoever it may be ultimately possible to "save" from the JesusChristians. (I cannot forsee a "happy ending" for David Mckay personally, in any regard....and the longer anyone remains in the JesusChristians, the more I anticipate that their conscience "being seared with a hot iron" will be desensitized to any genuine leadings of the Spirit.

As you have remarked, they are remarkably ignorant of the scripture these days(thus IMO making the individual members of the JesusChristians just that much more vulnerable), other than few the "proof texts" David prostitutes. In my day, we were, of course were taught to qualify "Judge not, that ye be not judged" (which David employed recently as a throw away "comeback" to Apostate)....with the Scripture (John 7:24) "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgements".

David is now knowlingly misquoting scriptures (that he ONCE taught himself to others within the JesusChristians), in order to childishly "win" an argument, before the souls in the "blinkered reality" that is part of being ensnared in his servitude. The fact that the other JesusChristians are either UNAWARE of David's blatant biblical dishonesty or that they are NOT PREPARED to defend the scriptures, in deference to David....says utter volumes about how low they have now sunk. (Josh is in someway still "independent" Apostate?) You'll have to have the strength to continue to contribute as you now watch all your former "acquaintances" on the JC site, (safely) put the boot in now that David has "excommunicated" you. As you would already have seen at the top of this page (if not at the source itself);



There certainly are some unfruitful works of darkness going on over there, and it seems that Chris, with his new endarknement, feels right at home in it all! They are saying that, now that Chris has turned on us, we are going to turn on him and say nasty things about him. Well, I guess they are right, because now I'm saying that he belongs with those people, and they themselves know that it is one of the nastiest things one could say about anyone! Ha

"endarknement"... is that a new JC word? Don't worry I won't make "alot" out of it. "Ha" (.....I just L-O-V-E-D that one, Apostate!!)


You remark that there are still some "good points" to the JesusChristians and their teachings (something which I argued about, with another contributer, many pages ago)...There ARE good points in the JesusChristians and their teachings.....however, what "good point" could you specifically trace back to David. He stole his ideas of anti-materialist scriptural literalism from the Children of God. (The very idea of kidney donations was one he copied from a some "feel-good" movie, that "inspired him to hijack the issue) My favourite memories of my times in the JesusChristians would be the fellowship I shared with the OTHER members there, and I was there when "human" David and "cult" David were in roughly equal proportions!!

I hope that you will use your scriptural expertise (..exegesis and "exit-Jesus" was most amusing!!) to challenge the JesusChristians on those occasions where you think they do not give due regard to biblical principles......What you post here WILL be read, that's for sure!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2008 07:59PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Malcolm. I would argue that I was more or less excommunicated by Dave the moment I decided to take a break, though I still feel I had solid theological justification. A quick look back on the "Taking a Break" thread proves as much.

Notwithstanding, this newest term, "endarkment" should disturb everyone, both from here and from the JC forum. I looked into this term and found this:

www.cultofcthulhu.net/Empire%20of%20Satanis.pdf


Honestly, I don't know what to make of it. Especially given that the term is used in a postive context in this pdf file. I won't judge this one. I will let those who are still in the JC community judge this themselves. Still I find it disturbing.

Good to see Josh defending Kirstie and her virtues despite the fact that she has left the fold. He may need to take a step back to see who was "bluffing down" and "intimidating" who though in regards to Tofferer who copped a barrage of negative speculation that began when he said he was just withdrawing to think about things. I wholeheartedly agree with his following statement. Winning an argument by bluff is the name of the game in the JCs.

"If you become a pastor you are making it your responsibility to care for your congregation. Just quickly winning an argument by bluff will stop all the heretical questions from coming to your attention, but they won't stop the questions from being in peoples minds. You will also drive people from your church. Some may find another church home, some may give up and say what's the use. Based on statistics it'll probably be the latter."

Jeremy wrote:
"Glenn and Al-- can you please refrain from insulting others... Sure, be honest with that person. But there is a difference between sharing honestly and unnecessarily hurting someone with offensive comments that are DESIGNED to hurt. Can you see what I'm saying?"

Glenn and Al are bottom of the JC totem and are fair game for correction, but Jeremy wrote this immediately after Elyas wrote: "He (Chris) clearly has no idea what he is talking about... Chris couldn't debate himself out of a wet paper bag...." And one does not know where to begin or end when quoting Dave's offensive comments designed to hurt, that have nothing to do with truth. Does anyone dare pull Dave up on the same issue?

The idea of people sharing how they honestly feel is a good thing and Tofferer may be more inclined to continue a theological discussion with Josh if only those interested in those issues contributed instead of a mob smothering it with derogatory comments designed to target the person or the very discussion as "stupid". Also, dissidents may be more inclined to return to the JC forum if they do not see those like myself banned whenever Dave feels he is losing ground and a feeding frenzy continuing against someone who cannot answer the accusations made against them.

I find it quite revealing that despite the fact that Dave damns anyone for associating with this forum and makes it a condition for families who want to maintain contact with their children in his group not to have anything to do with this site, that he says he prefers the polarised option of communicating across this gulf than a site which encourages more open dialogue between JCs and XJCs. Dave has claimed that dissidents are afraid to engage with him directly (despite updating his ban on me), but it looks like he is the one afraid of communicating on a level playing field, and in my case, even when a single individual calls his bluff within his domain.

It's Mother's Day here in Australia, so Happy Mother's Day to mothers everywhere, particularly those who are not able to celebrate it with their children! (ahem... to be more direct; Dave you could let Cherry see her children and grandchildren for Mothers Day)

Ftumch. Remember him in "The Young Ones"? He was a little demon who served the Dark Lord by collecting a soul whenever someone accidentally uttered his name. But who would say "Ftumch"? (episode "Boring" for those who are interested [youtube.com] (start at 4:10))

Maybe Dave is right about the importance of spelling. There must be a demon who was waiting for someone to mis-spell "endarkenment". Waiting and waiting there, to collect that soul. Seems someone did a bad spelling, and summoned up that demon! And the hubris of Dave thinking he coined that word!

[welikejesus.com]

Got to this fascinating site to find out about "Endarkenment". It's a pro-African site, so anyone working in Kenya should be interested...they are compiling an encyclopedia of notable African people, hitherto un-represented in referenced literature.

[www.endarkenment.com]

The two links about Endarkenment and Enlightenment make good reading.

My humble apologies to all and sundry for having misspelt it!

No need to seek forgiveness Dave. We do not take spelling mistakes as seriously as the JC's.