Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Dogmother ()
Date: April 01, 2008 02:28AM

Dave wrote this:
"With hindsight, we feel that if Ash had been more specific about appointing Alf as his "next of kin", this may have all been avoided. George saw Kate as his next of kin, and he started thinking (when the situation was becoming more up close and personal for him) that it would cover his backside if he personaly spoke to Kate and put her at ease about what he would be doing, what the risk were, etc." ....end of quote.

I see Nicosia--Cyprus, Dr. Kyriakides, as a wise, good-sense, fine human being as well as a brilliant surgeon. Why isn't Dave giving him the respect he deserves? This overfamiliarity of "George" plus the "backside" vulgarity does not reflect well on Dave nor the JCs.

As for Dr. Kyriakides seeing Kate as Ash's next of all know how I feel about the right of mothers and what I have to say about it. Sandy wanted and got Ash's kidney. Kate wants and deserves her son.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2008 02:29AM by Dogmother.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Blackhat ()
Date: April 01, 2008 03:19PM

"However, the author of this thread seems unaware that RR is also headed by a convicted criminal."


However, the author of this post seems unaware that Jesus of Nazareth was a convicted criminal..... were Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela......

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2008 03:29PM by Blackhat.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Blackhat ()
Date: April 01, 2008 04:18PM

Wow, so fast to respond, Dave! Been missing the postings here eh?

No, not a defence of anyone, just a little exercise in Logic 1.01.

A shame your response doesn't follow the basic rules of logic.

And please, don't quote other people's comments as if they were my postings.


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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Blackhat ()
Date: April 01, 2008 04:44PM

And David,

While you are so fired up to answer me so quickly, and to again tell the world that you know who I am, would you please explain about the whipping of the Kenyan boy and how it fits in with your Quaker principles?

Thanks again. I look forward to your equally rapid response.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Blackhat ()
Date: April 01, 2008 06:14PM

Still answer?

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Blackhat ()
Date: April 01, 2008 07:37PM

As David is not forthcoming, maybe if you can all have some quiet time together, you might find the answer to the question about the Kenyan boy? Maybe it will be a Meya Culpa? I wish you well in your thinking time.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: April 04, 2008 08:47AM

We're still waiting, David. But I am not going to hold my breath.

Hi everyone. Zeuszor here, back again. I just got back from my SoCal trip and am a bit tired from the trip, sitting here having a cup of coffee and reading over the posts I've missed since being out. Good stuff.

Among the other places I visited on my trip (I visit these kinds of communities for research and just sort of for fun; the UTHC was a trip) was the Twelve Tribes community here:

More info on this group can be read here:


I have heard a lot about TT over the years in my studies of NRMs, and recently spent ten days living and working among the TT out there at their organic farm. And, I just wanted to put my two cents' worth out here: the TT are IMO definitely a very controlling, overly authoritarian, and elitist group, a cult to be sure but at least they are doing something. At least they have some kind of good fruit (literally) to show for their "movement." I mean, they have 67 acres out there, 40 of which are being cultivated as farmland. They are growing all of their own fruits and vegetables, have cows, chickens, goats, are making their own butter and yogurt. They are 80% self-sustaining out there and are very peaceful and hospitable people. And they as a group are expanding, growing in numbers and finances. Within ten years they plan on moving to a model of several different worldwide self-sustaining farm communities, with local cafes and outreach centers in the adjoining towns. For what it is worth, I was impressed with their operation. If I didn't know a little about love-bombing and other mind control techniques, I likely would have stayed there. At first, I did not want to leave.
So what I am saying is (and I am not defending them as a group nor Yoneq as a person, as TT is certainly quite problematic) but at least they are doing something, and they have something to show for their "movement" other than a bunch of negative press and alienated families. As far as cult leaders go, DM is definitely pretty amateurish and has little or nothing positive to offer.
Now, that is not to diminish the damage that he has done nor does it offer much consolation to the families of his victims. All I am saying is, what has DM got? Some naive kids selling his lousy, unoriginal books on the streets? Some speil about "freeganism" BS? Why not take that property in Kenya and start a farm? Why not grow your own food and REALLY live off the grid?
In a way, I was quite impressed with what I saw of the TT. At least they are putting some walk to their talk about "forsaking all" and are doing something productive. DM himself has not forsaken a damn thing and is hardly living "off fthe grid" even as these kids are homeless and living in campers.
A small-time pimp, that's all he is. A chicken-hawk. That is my conclusion.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: April 06, 2008 03:31AM



We are sending this month's newsletter to some members of our online forum who have not posted for some time. There are many different topics on the forum, and we welcome input from all points of view. Please do consider a visit soon. The URL is:



We have received this virus alert from a couple of different sources. It sounds genuine, so we pass it on for what it is worth:

During the next few days, do not open any message with an attachment entitled 'POSTCARD,' regardless of who sent it to you. It is a virus which opens A POSTCARD IMAGE, which 'burns' the whole hard disc C of your computer. This virus will be received from someone who has your e-mail address in his/her contact list. This is the reason why you need to send this e-mail to all your contacts It is better to receive this message 25 times than to receive the virus and open it.

If you receive a mail called' POSTCARD,' even though sent to you by a friend, do not open it! Shut down your computer immediately.

This is the worst virus announced by CNN. It has been classified by Microsoft as the most destructive virus ever. This virus was discovered by McAfee yesterday, and there is no repair yet for this kind of virus. This virus simply destroys the Zero Sector of the Hard Disc, where the vital information is kept.


Ash and Jayme are both recovering well from their kidney donations. In fact, Jayme is back on the streets distributing literature in the Boston area, along with Jeremy.

We were a bit secretive about Ash's donation, because an attempt to donate lastyear was thwarted by complaints from his family that he had been coerced into donating. We are pleased to announce, however, that his mother (Kate) came to Cyprus (where the operation took place) and, at the last minute, expressed full support for his decision. We thank Kate for that.

Ash flies back to London tomorrow. His kidney was both a perfect match for Sandi and super-efficient too. In just a couple of days her creatinine levels dropped to almost zero, on a par with the creatine levels of a newborn baby!

There are two other members still hoping to donate this year, but after they have donated, it is hard to imagine any more members donating, as practically everyone in our community who could donate would have donated.

There was a lot of media coverage for Ash's donation, and you can find most of the links at this section of our forum:



As soon as Ash and Alf return to the U.K., they are scheduled to take part in two major media interviews in relation to their activities as freegans (in particular, their attempts to recycle tons of wasted food which is discarded by supermarkets every day). They will be taking representatives of the media out on "bin raids", where they gather free food, and then they will prepare a meal using what they have secured.

Grace (in California) has also been interviewed on her freegan activities, for a magazine that caters to teenagers.


Although there are exciting things happening in the U.K., and in the U.S., this newsletter primarily deals with what is happening in Kenya and in Australia.

Things seem to be settling down considerably now in Kenya, after the violence in January and February. We still have not returned to teaching Easy English at the schools, but have been kept busy with AVP (Alternatives to Violence Project) workshops every week, distributing "Peace in Kenya" T-shirts (more than 5,000 so far), and preaching on Sundays about the peace testimony.

Many of the people who have already attended AVP workshops (which have targeted special sections of the community each week, including government employees, church pastors, and technical college students) are now asking if they can return for the advanced workshop being planned for this month.

Casey and Giddy have returned to Takatifu Gardens, and the local people have been welcoming toward Giddy, even though he is from the tribe that Kibaki belongs to. It is worth noting that most of the killings that took place in Kenya in recent months were not carried out by members of the public, but resulted from police using live ammunition to disperse demonstrators. The Luhyas (which make up most of the population around Takatifu Gardens) and the Luos both have tribal beliefs that if they kill anyone, the ghost of that person will haunt them; so murder is quite rare in these tribes.

Boop was only able to spend a month with us before returning to India, where he has been a big help with the huge print runs that we have been getting there lately. The Easy English books are going out so fast that we may soon be printing more than a million books a year. Please note, however, that these books have all been sold at or below the cost of printing. We recently increased the prices on some titles, so that they now bring in enough money to just cover the printing and shipping expenses. For these titles, there should be no limit to how many of them we can make available at the new prices. Previously we were losing money on almost all book sales and covering them with donations from the teams working in Australia, the U.K., and the U.S. Now those funds will be available for other projects.

Our two female rabbits both gave birth to kittens, a total of 18 between them! The kittens are now hopping around the rabbit enclosure. (Note: "kittens" is the proper term for a baby rabbit!)

Construction has occupied a lot of our time and energy at Takatifu Gardens this month. We have constructed a seven-foot brick wall around the entire perimeter of the compound. This gives privacy and greater security for those inside. We are hoping that it will cut down on the incidents of theft which have occurred in recent months.


The complete text for two of our publications about Bible prophecy is now available on our web site.

Jeremiah's Lament

The Fall of America

Several new topics have been raised on our forum this month as well. They include:

"Evolution vs Creationism" (by Lisa)


"The Gospel of Thomas" (by Al)

"Television Addiction" (by Jayme)

"The Movie 'Sicko'" (by Dave)

"Bionic hornets" (by Simon)

"Perfection" (by Mike)

and "Scientology protests" (by Glenn)

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: April 08, 2008 01:27AM



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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: April 08, 2008 12:05PM

Dear Zeusor,

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. (Good God! Is Tofferer actually "alive"???) It deserves a full screening I believe;

Tofferer writes:

I am going to take a break from the JC website/forum. It is because my own convictions and thoughts. They are as follows:

1. Evolution. If you are going to take the teachings of Jesus literally, you can not accept the philosophy of evolution as Jesus himself declared we were created when he was teaching on divorce.

2. The Trinity. Again, to deny this is to deny the teachings of Jesus. I quoted the text of Matthew regarding Jesus baptism and its implying of the trinity. At the end of the same gospel, we see a direct reference to the trinity by Jesus himself.

3. The millenium. I am an amillenialist. Given the Apocalypse does not give a specific chronology of event (the bowls, seals and trumpets can either all be one and the same or different judgments of increasing magnitude), it does seem unreasonable to me to apply a literal interpretation to the reference of a millenial kingdom. Jesus himself said that the kingdom was at hand and in 2 Peter we read that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day.

4. Baptism. I don't know who here has studied greek. Doesn't matter. From what I have studied of greek and from what I have read on baptism, it seems to me that baptism always requires water. Jesus commanded us to baptize in the name of the the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (yes, the trinity). Baptism does not save us, rather it serves to demonstrate that without Christ we are dead in sin. I believe that there will be people in Heaven who were never baptized, though I would pray it will be due to circumstances not allowing it and not a refusal to do so.

Yes, I acknowledge that those hatemongers over on RR will likely have a field day with this post. However, I feel it is my right to express where I disagree with the JC community. As those called by Christ, we should seek to be above reproach, but we should be willing to accept a rebuke when it comes.

I can not say how long this break will last. It may be a few days or even a couple weeks. I will return though. I just need some time off from here due to my convictions.

While Tofferer has simply continually brainlessly regurgitated David's "hatemonger" labelling strategy....he otherwise appears to be actually still capable of independent thought....Good for him, indeed, as you say Zeusor....!!

I presume that no-one here is actually opposed to people posting on the JC site or reading their material.....Any claim that David's critics abuse the "rights" of others to freely communicate is of course nothing more than (psychological projection and) deliberate calumny.....Tofferers apparent connivance at these self serving accusations, might raise some ire....however his own thoughts do not (...and as there are Creationist on BOTH sides of the fence here, both within the JesusChristians and without, I will shortly magnificently ride to Tofferers defence in relation to the debate on Creationism within the JC's pages on my prancing white stallion, with my shining Kalishnikov of truth... (I traded in the sword some time ago!) at my side....all that my dear "brother" in the faith, Tofferer, might better understand that down-trodden David is not quite the "sole" champion of biblical truth, that he might portray himself as...)

Might I then also contritely say (in humble admiration of Tofferers' wisely chosen words):

Yes, I acknowledge that those hatemongers over on the JC site will likely have a field day with this post. However, I feel it is my right to express where I disagree with the RR community. As those called by Christ, we should seek to be above reproach, but we should be willing to accept a rebuke when it comes.

IF Ash, actually invited his family to meet with him, prior to my previous email, I owe him and his cult leader, an apology, which I am prepared to deliver to Mr Appleby or other staff of the Globe and Mail (with evidence of the same emailed to David).....provided the policy continues (i.e. it wasn't simply duplicitious "image" making......!)...I have said previously that I don't deny the right of anyone to read JC material or to make a decision to join.....What happens AFTER that decision... (and Joes infantile rants against his family are comical evidence of this)....does seem to me to border ever so slightly on purposely manipulative, isolating and self-degrading indoctrination,..... that these days is rapidly entering the legal lexicon as abusive "psychological injury".....however irrespective of what may transpires here,

In order to save bringing this thread into " disrepute", in the future, (in the eyes of some) I shall henceforth only post (relatively!) "nice", "comforting", "consolatory" messages here meekly chiding David for the minor injury he sometimes occasions in his haste to fulfill the word of God....anything of a more "robust" nature will be posted on the RR forum in another (suitably titled feral) thread altogether.....where I will NOT "negotiate" my postings or "qualify" my of course is obliged to read what I may post "there".....thus there will be no cause to complain about me "here" my "nasty and offensive" posts will be CLEARLY marked as such else where on the forum, where they will be SAFELY restrained....unless SOMEONE chooses to read them ...."Volenti non fit injuria"

However I must finish will all due thanks to Tofferer, for helping me finally put my thoughts to (electronic) paper, here.....What a guy!!!

in adoration,

"Principal Lovemonger"


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