Kirstie has come back to the JC Forum to reassure those who are concerned. She writes


"Just for the record... I have not lost my "zeal" and Dave how would you know anyway i have not spoken to you or anyone in over a week. So you should all be aware (as there does look like there is concern for me??) I am more on fire for God than i ever have been, my Zeal has not gone anywhere.

I am not sure what you mean when you say "turn against us" I am guessing you mean you as a collective as in the Jesus Christians? I dont think i have given you any reason for you to say that Dave. Is it another manipulating thing you are doing to try and keep me in line? I did tell Sue that i would not share the things she has told me and i wont go back on that.

As for my opinions about the Jesus Christians they are mine and i will be sharing them with the people i love and trust.

This will be my very last post on this forum and i will not be interested in reading any further posts."

Good on you Kirstie, for standing up to Dave's manipulation! I wish you well in your future, and hope you have gained some positive things as well as wisdom from this experience.

Dave "thanking" Ash's parent

Here is the text of the story in the Cyprus paper, kindly provided for us by Nick, who is over there. Thank you, Nick.


You like these media stories don't you Dave.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2008 07:09AM by apostate.

Kirstie said:

I am not sure what you mean when you say "turn against us" I am guessing you mean you as a collective as in the Jesus Christians? I dont think i have given you any reason for you to say that Dave. Is it another manipulating thing you are doing to try and keep me in line? I did tell Sue that i would not share the things she has told me and i wont go back on that.

This probably won't mean much coming from me, but WELL DONE Kirstie. Unfortunately Sue will now be pressured by Dave to disclose what was meant to be private and confidential. It is how he works. I am truly glad that you are continuing to show some zeal for the principles espoused by those who follow a God of love.

READING BETWEEN THE LIES

The Globe and Mail reported;

Moreover, despite their protracted opposition to the transplant, Mr. Falkingham's mother and stepfather now seem to have shifted position.
"They've turned out to be quite supportive," Ms. Sabloff said. "[Ms. Croft] sent us both a note saying it was a good thing he did and that she's looking forward to a good, ongoing relationship."
That would represent a considerable change of feeling.
Against the wishes of their son, the couple had flown to Cyprus and strenuously tried to prevent the surgery from going ahead, according to Mr. McKay.

What things did Kate do strenuously Dave? And how do you explain your assertion regarding what you believed she was doing when the facts suggest the opposite?

Dave tries to explain:
To explain the contradiction about Kate, it seems that she has actually come around to accepting that Ash is not brainwashed, that he does have a mind of his own, and that, despite our differences in beliefs, we in the Jesus Christians are not coercing him into doing this. That is a huge victory, and we are grateful for that.

She did, however, still go to Cyprus against Ash's will, and make certain threats to the doctor if he did not use his influence to force Ash to see her before the operation. That's when the surgeon said to Ash that he would not do the operation unless he allowed Kate the opportunity to come into the room and talk to him with the surgeon present.


Again.... according to Mr. McKay! How does he know that Kate made certain "threats"? It sounds like it was the SURGEON who said he would not operate unless Ash allowed his mother into the room. Dave reported to the Courier Mail:

“Head surgeon George Kyriakides felt that he should at least explain the procedures to the mother, whom he felt must be worrying needlessly about her son's safety. So he insisted on phoning Kate Croft,” Mr McKay said.

Mrs Croft then booked the next flight to Cyprus... After speaking with the surgeon, Mrs Croft was allowed to see her son.

Could it be that the surgeon who insisted on contacting Kate and including her in what he was about to do to her son, also requested that she attend, and HE was the one who made it a condition that Ash speak to his mother before HE operated? This operation was occurring in a country where family bonds mean something and perhaps HE needed to be sure that a reasonable effort had been made to include her in the process before he would proceed, especially when a previous medical authority had ruled against making the same operation.

Think about it. The Surgeon contacted his mother. She, and her husband, at great personal expense immediately fly to Cypress, where (if the surgeon had not asked them to come) had no reasonable expectation to see their son who had made it clear he did not want to see them. Ash should be grateful that his mother and step-father's active support allowed the operation to proceed without any complication.

And yet Dave, through the Courier Mail continues to project negative spin upon their efforts...

“Kate came in with the film crew's camera rolling and tearfully hugged Ash and said how proud she was of him,” Mr McKay said.

So... despite the claim that Kate was threatening the surgeon and making strenuous efforts to prevent the operation, when she is allowed to see her son she hugs him and tells him she is proud of him! But Dave, the master of seeing the best in himself and the worst in everyone else tries to make something cynical out of that.

Who's film crew was involved, Dave? Who invited them to Cyprus to film the operation? If you are going to claim that Ash's mother needed to "threaten" the surgeon to see Ash, how did a film crew intrude on Ash's room?

The Globe and Mail reported; "The Crofts could not be reached for comment..." That doesn't sound like the actions of people seeking the limelight. But we know who has been milking the publicity behind every organ that his followers donate. Curiously, Dave McKay is quoted in EVERY media report on the issue, so it is the height of hypocrisy to suggest to the world that Ash's mother is exploiting media attention here.

Dave concludes on his forum;

Old habits die slowly, and so Kate is still inclined to force herself onto Ash.

That hug and words of encouragement will scar him for life!

Nevertheless, with the transplant behind him, and Kate accepting that he is not brainwashed, we are hopeful that things will improve dramatically in their relationship... back to something closer to what it was like during his first three and a half years in the community, when he came and went freely at her house, and both sides respected their differences.

Lets hope it does, and Ash consents to them visiting him in the hospital now that he knows they supported his decision once they were satisfied he wasn't just conforming with the peer pressure of a group where the majority do as he has.

The trouble is experience has proven that Dave's habit of opposing anyone who does not endorse his authority is unlikely to change. But Dave, here is your chance to prove us wrong and make the same effort that Kate and Nick have to reverse their position in reversing your efforts at driving wedges between them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2008 11:40AM by apostate.

Dave seems to have forgetten his own teaching on predestination

Quote
Hi Joanne,
I was making a facetious remark to Glenn. I'm not entirely sure what the passage meant when Jesus said it either, because it seems like being "called" and being "chosen" are pretty much the same thing.

From
Predestination

"Some of us have been "chosen" to be saved, and some have been "chosen" to be damned. There is absolutely nothing on earth that we can do to change it."
...
"It kind of goes along with the verse that says, "Many are called, but few are chosen." Calling and choosing sound so very similar, but it seems that the "chosen" people only differ from the many who are called in that they are those who have RESPONDED to the call. That involves a choice on our part. You cannot get around that. The predestinationalists teach that too."

Thank you Reprobate for pointing that out....

...of course it "doesn't matter" if one is consistent in what one says (say going "hospital shopping" in order to be able to deal with administrations that are not aware of how many other "independent donors" have mysteriously originated from the same source or of the amount of publicity that has deliberately arisen from those donations or simply if necessary outright lies)...when in the end the "message" is simply you, anyway.

David finds a semantic significance or he doesn't....in the end its still "David" isn't it, thus the most important principle is preserved and hence you'll find a pattern in his inanity.

(Ash donates an organ, or Paul Henry donates, or Casey donates......ultimately all the press leads back to the central point behind it all, with direct quotes or references to his holiness McKay....

Dave says:

"there are some ex-members who have donated kidneys without getting publicity for it... and so they top score in the humility stakes."

[welikejesus.com]\

HUMILITY

Not much humility here, from what I can see......



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2008 06:58PM by Blackhat.

Every kidney donation goes back to David McKay and his brilliant idea for rescuing his failing cult.

Such an opportunity to show his own HUMILITY!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2008 07:19PM by Blackhat.

Jesse writes:

"It seems hypocritical that people would prefer to see the worst about us, when listening to the lies that Rick Ross promotes, yet choose to ignore their own source's credibility.

The idea of shooting the messenger has been expanded to shooting the guy who built the bike that the messenger rides on! Rick Ross is not the source of the information that is provided here. This forum is just the conduit by which ex-members like myself who are lied against and banned from communicating on your forum, can present first hand testimony and evidence to counter such slander. In fact RR is virtually absent from this discussion thread. However if you are worried that my testimony might be contaminated by the background of the person who set up the forum on which it is presented, I am happy to return and make the same effort to speak the truth in your virtuous company.

Blanket comments have the effect of labelling, so perhaps Jesse you could mention more specifically the "lies" that you worry that people over here might be listening to. I am open to hearing what you have to say.

The case is that people that accept the lies at the Rick Ross without questioning it very much most likely WANT to believe the lies. That in itself is worth some serious self examination as to why someone would choose to encourage hateful slander."

Are you prepared to judge yourself by the same standard Jesse? Because it seems a lot of people swallow Dave's false assertions on your forum without questioning him.

Fearful Tofferer replies:

"Yes, that is so totally true Jesse. ...Indeed, I have begun to wonder if it were not best to simply stay clear of the RR forum itself, hence lessen having any chance having any form of contact with Mr. Ross himself.

When was the last time you encountered the fearful RR in these almost 300 pages, Tofferer? The people who post here are independent individuals whose only link is our common negative experiences with the person who controls your forum. He will no doubt be pleased with your contribution in seeking to close the eyes and minds of anyone who might be prepared to hear both sides of an issue. Walk by faith in the light of truth, Tofferer, instead of irrational fear, which.. leads to the dark side.

Dave, attempting to invent yet more accusations, said:

I've been trying to ignore the nonsense going on at the RR forum, but I just couldn't resist commenting on this one. In an effort to shame us, someone (Craig, I think) said that there are some ex-members who have donated kidneys without getting publicity for it... and so they top score in the humility stakes.

Attempt no. 1 In an effort to shame us

Fair enough.

But consider this... They have, at various times, claimed that they know of (not in contact with, but only know of) forty ex-members, then sixty, and I think even 80. So let's say that there are 100, and let's say that they are in touch with half of them. (In reality, I don't think they in touch with much more than a dozen) But we're operating on the assumption that, of 50 ex-members that they are in touch with, at least two have donated kidneys and not said anything about it (except, of course, through their agent, Craig). That's a pretty amazing statistic. That's like an average of four living organ donors in 100, an incredibly HUGE statistic by comparison with the average number of people in the wider community who would do such a thing, literally THOUSANDS of time the norm.

Attempt No. 2 at least two have donated kidneys and not said anything about it (except, of course, through their agent, Craig)

So we have to ask ourselves what it is that has made so many of these ex-members donate kidneys (whether or not they have done it secretly). Could it be that they are acting under instructions from Craig? Or could it be that they are trying to prove a point to the on-going membership?

Attempt No. 3 they are acting under instructions from Craig?

Attempt No. 4 they are trying to prove a point to the on-going membership?

Isn't this amazing? It's like Craig is bragging that, because of our influence, even our enemies are donating kidneys now. Praise God! That's incredible proof of the fact that people do not have to live in a Jesus Christian community to be motivated to donate a kidney... all you need is a little exposure to the "message" that we are getting out, through the media, through this forum, etc. It makes sense; it's loving; it's personally rewarding; it's relatively easy and relatively safe.

Attempt No. 5 Craig is bragging


So we extend our congratulations to those anonymous ex-members who have donated kidneys... whether it came from our influence or from Craig's. Keep passing the message on, and you will probably see others besides yourself making that decision too.

I always find it amusing watching the progression from thought, through assumption, to outright fact in Dave's writings. He seems to convince himself of the correctness of what he says as he goes. It certainly is a common pattern with him. Not one sliver of evidence to back up anything he says and yet he boldly continues.
Those following him seem to be hoodwinked by the same pattern of self deception, as I do not see any of them challenging Dave's irrational modus operandi.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2008 04:11AM by apostate.