Kirstie, if you are reading this...you made the right choice. Don't give up on trusting the right kind of people and always follow your instinct, like you did now by not involving yourself with a group that would have brought you and the people you love and who love you nothing but heartache in the end.

I have been very impressed with your posts and if you want to get in touch, don't hesitate. I have no agenda other than support. There are many others who post on this thread who are trustworthy, supportive and very smart.

Oh, good God!

("Thwack".... and Apostate strikes ANOTHER home run!)....Yes I can remember actually handing those out...(not to mention the later interpretation of "wormwood" as a crashing military satellite containing apocalyptic germ warfare material)......and then there was the "hype" David showered us with about the seriousness of the message, at the time.....all now conveniently forgotten, since David "rediscovered" that his homeland still had a few young lives he could ensnare there....

Now that Vicki and her children are "out" I've wondered what Ross must be doing to justify to himself that they too (like every other ex-member) "deserved" it.....wasn't there a romance there at one stage that David purposely nipped in the bud (in order to prevent having deal with more of the troublesome "independence" that couples seemed to cause him).....

I mean, I'm the proud author of my very own "heresy" (.....and NO! You can't have it Apostate!! It's mine...all mine!! You'll just have to find a heresy of your own with which to be vilified...so there!)....but what about Vicki? How does Ross outwardly persuade himself here, that she too fell into the clutches of the "evil one" (....or of course fell out of them, as I might put it!).....a woman who brazenly loved her children too "selfishly" to be able to truly devote herself to Davids' every little inclination???

[welikejesus.com]

On Wednesday 19th, Kirstie removed her avatar, changed her name to "guestie", and wiped many of her posts on the JC Forum. She exchanged the postings she had made with single words like:

I am no-one
Nope, still no-one
xx
no
oh no
oh no no
oh dear
nope
big no
sorry
sorry
I was wrong what I said
no more

Etc, etc.

Early the next day, she left the JC forum with a short message:

[welikejesus.com]

"So long everyone it has been nice to be involved with the conversations going on but it is now time for me to say fairwell to you all"

David gave her a snide remark misusing the passage about "Many are called but few are chosen."

Dogmother has offered support (as I do should she ask).

Joanne is concerned about her friend, and David is replying with weasel-words.

Either something is very wrong, or something is very right....and Kirstie has seen what the JC's are about!

I hope Kirstie's OK, and I wish her well in her search for fellowship.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2008 07:56PM by Blackhat.

Dave wrote: "Old habits die slowly, and so Kate is still inclined to force herself onto Ash."

Let me tell you Dave....a mother's "old habits" --love for her child--never die. There's nothing you can do about it. Nothing.

Mothers, like Kate, will be there to reclaim their sons and daughters from the gates of hell if need be. They'll be waiting.

I also admire the spirit that Kate has shown, still reaching out for the son, who who has been purposely misled into thinking that "hating his father and mother" is routinely necessary in order to be completely free to be David's disciple,....and hence who has now has put in himself in the position of no longer being God's disciple.....(Look beyond the pat answers David feeds you for his own benefit, Ash....several of the original apostles drew their families with them after Christs ressurrection....Do you think that they served God any the less at that point?........"hating your father and mother" while "loving your cult leader" is NOT the intent of the scripture....

..but I must in all deference, take issue with Dogmother on one point here.....

Dear Dogmother you SIMPLY cannot (dogmatically?) go and assert such things that:

"Mothers...will be there to reclaim their sons...from the gates of Hell, if need be!"

I mean...well really....its preposterous,isnt it!......so then how come Davids' mother hasn't!!!

Malcolm, I believe Dave's mother tried and will always be there for him.

And I am not saying mothers are always right in their "dogmatic" ways. I believe in the Jewish saying, "Who descents from you teaches you." And that our sons and daughters have a strong longing for new light to bring to the world. They often do and we, as parents, need to listen.

Unfortunately, some of these wonderful young people get duped (as it seems to me always the best and finest) by a man like Dave and thus waste their time and energy standing on street corners selling (distributing) his stuff (junk), beating a dead horse so to speak.

Anyone following the discussion of Ash's donation on welike may be interested in the Cyprus
Mail article referred to by Alf. I tried posting this there, but it was too long, apparently.
_____________________________________________________

Transplant finally goes ahead in Nikosia clinic.

By Alexia Saoulli

A 23-YEAR-OLD Aus man donated his kidney to a Canadian woman in an operation
that almost didn't go through after his mother feared her son had been
brainwashed by a Christian religious group.

Ashwyn Falkingham donated his kidney to Sandi Sabloff on Thursdy at Nikosia's
Paraskevaideion Surgical and Transplant Centre.

Dr. George Kyriakides, who performed the Surgery and runs the Centre, said both
donor and recipient were in good health.

"They are both in Cyprus and they are both well", he said. "The operation was
successful".

Kyriakides said it was entirely legal to donate organs for altruistic purposes
where live donors were concerned.

He also said too many people had been involved in the procedure for it to have
been any sort of scam, as had previosly been feared.

There was definitely no money exchanged. There were a lot of people involved
and the hospital in Canada exhaustively crosschecked everything, psychiatrists
were involved, sociologists. "This was purely an altruistic donation,"
Kyriakides said.

But the operation, initially scheduled to take place in Canada last year very
nearly did not go ahead due to Falkingham's mother's intervention.

Reports said Kate Croft had felt her son had been brainwashed by a community
called the Jesus Christians into donating one of his healthy kidneys.

To date 19 of the group's 30 members worldwide have been donors.

According to NEWS.com.au because of this Falkingham had asked Kyriakides to
keep the operation secret, fearing a repeat of last year when he was stopped
from going through with the donation.

Despite the doctors' go ahead last April, the operation was abruptly cancelled
by the Canadian hospital's administration over concerns of "coercion" as well
as increasing media attention.

But it is believed Kyriakides insisted on phoning Croft to explain the
operation's procedures to her, prompting her to book the next flight out to
Cyprus.

Australian media reports said Croft's attitude had done a complete turnaround
from last year and that yesterday she was by her son's side and was very proud
of him.

Following the fall through of last year's procedure, the pair had considered
the United States as an option. It was later dismissed due to the high cost.
Sabloff found Kyriakides through a doctor in Israel and knowing the island had
one of the highest per capita rates of organ transplants it had seemed like an
obvious choice, said Canadian paper, the Globe and Mail.

The daily said it had spoken to Falkingham from his hospital bed on Thursday.
He told the paper: "I'm chuffed, it's amazing how well this has worked out ...
We didn't know how good the match was until the day before the operation. I'm
obviously a little sore, but I'm really happy that itá¼€s worked out so well".

Founded in the early 80s and scattered across four continents, the Jesus
Christians are anti-materialistic and believe in voluntary poverty and communal
living. It's members believe that giving up an organ to save someone's life is
an exemplary act of devotion to God and humankind. According to US-born group
founder, Dave McKay, although encouraged, kidney donation was not a
requirement.

The 23-year-old met Sabloff, a retired Toronto computer-sales executive who has
suffered from chronic kidney failure for over 2 decades, over the internet. It
is thought he actively sought to find someone to donate a kidney to after he
joined the community 4 years ago.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2008 03:57AM by sWord.

Dear Dogmother,

(In a more serious vein)...I certainly agree with you that the genuine love on the part of any mother for her child, by comparison, absolutely puts the sword to the pretence of "brotherly compassion" for those "sincere" in their faith that David McKay masquerades behind. I apologize if I was unclear here.....David, well and truly at home inside the Gates of Hell (for whatever reason) was more the point I wanted to make!

Davids' mother actually tried several times to "talk" her son "out" of what he was doing (Apostate has a copy of one of the earliest letters from her, from one of the early printed newsletters, if you'd like to see it) that David of course, dismissed out of hand and instead used it to "prove" to those of us in the Christians at the time, of all the "persecution" David had bravely suffered through, and of how he too had had to, in all "good conscience", forsake his family in the wider interests of following the "gospel".....

It was pathetic really....but to question David and take it seriously at the time, would only have meant sleepless hours of humiliation in a gruelling "grievance" session...so you meekly let it go, wanly smile and nod at David.


(In a much LESS serious vein...!)....then again I'm wondering if it could have been that Davids mother simply didn't recognize him while she was standing in the shade of that dark and foreboding entrance......have you noticed how closely David looks like Abu Baker Bashir (once you give him a "tan", the white prayer cap and a somewhat longer beard)...the Indonesian Cleric who is the apologist for (if not the instigator of) the Bali bombers.....I suppose what you start off with any doctrine of hate, what with all the manufactured hyperbole and the intent to cause whatever suffering you could to others, the reflection of it, would end up registered somewhat in your personal features, wouldn't it.....hence one apostle of hateful nonsense ending up looking rather much like another (....see David's Raelian "twin" for further comparsion...)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2008 04:41AM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Glad you are back on the board Sword.

Dave "encourages" kidney donation by his members
According to US-born group founder, Dave McKay, although encouraged, kidney donation was not a requirement.

How does he do this? (rhetorical)

He gets them to wear bright red T shirts BEFORE they donate which says 10 REASONS TO DONATE and lists them

He uses Bible verses to sway young idealistic impressionable minds. Verses like "offer your bodies up a living sacrifice", "he who has two must give to he who has none" (telling them it is talking about body parts)

He teaches them to LIE to hospital ethics boards

He isolates them from any family or friends who might object during a time when family and friends need to be most involved

He "hospital shops", making sure that each individual hospital is not aware of how many in his group have donated



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2008 04:55AM by apostate.

For those new to this forum,

I doubt that many of those who post here would oppose the "ethical" donation of organs. Several ex-members are now in fact donors of organs themselves, hence any attempt by David McKay to portray those who are critical of him as nothing more than "nay-sayers" is deliberately deceitful and opportunistic.

I personally admire the step Mr Falkingham has taken...it show him to be a young man of considerable calibre. Regrettably it does NOT (as he unfortunately may have hoped it to) show that David Mckay or the Jesuschristians have any greater legitimacy. The wider issues of organ banks and registration procedures are worthwhile initiatives that exist completely independent of the JesusChristians.

It is NOT an altruistic donation where it buys "press". Compare the (often contacted in advance) press coverage that the JesusChristians have received, in relation to the "coverage" any other altruistic donor usually receives.....Which article or program FAILS to mention either the name of David McKay or the JesusChristians (IF as Mr Mckay states every donation was an "inidividual" decision to donate, then that INDIVIDUAL deserves all the allocades, not "McKay. Inc". It would be of course ethically reprehensible for the JeusChristians to use those individuals within it who have donated for the purposes of "buying" legitimacy".

The number of donors (and now repeat donor of other organs) is far and away in excess of any "normal bell curve distribution" of donation patterns of any social grouping....it beggars belief that Mr McKay can claim that there is no "expectation" of donation, in a little universe where internal "kudos" is bought through conformity to Davids will (Please see the proceeding 277 pages!!) As Apostate has stated the practise of "hospital shopping" is deliberately pursued, where necessary to circumvent such questions.

Thank you Ash,...good luck Sandi.....(and I see no need to mention anyone else, trying to ride their own bandwagon)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2008 06:20AM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.