Apostate, thank you very much. That's an important and enlightning post. I had no idea about any of this. You are truly an "insider," and what an inspiration how you and your family have prevailed and moved on with your lives in a healthy way.

Dear Apostate,

(Hmm..really must get that "book" project up and running, I think)...Hear, hear! I echo dogmothers comments! God bless you for your support of Kevin, Apostate, when it would have been so easy to just sell your soul in the fashion Roland did (....in order to then buy enough kudos from David to finally become the leader in the JC's, a position that had always been denied to him previously due to obvious lack of ability;...oh and Roland, if you still feel the need to "punch someones' face in" as you threatened Kevin, why don't you try that with me, sometime, first....)...you are a credit to yourself and your family Apostate having had the courage to act as you did!

It's also inspiring to hear how David's sons and elder daughter refused to kow-tow to him and stood up for the truths that they once thought David actually believed in....Really an enormously stalwart effort on their parts, being mature enough to be able to stand up for themselves, as the "universe" as they knew it caved in around them.....it's exhilrating to hear of how they ultimately, successfully struggled out of the nightmare they had been caught up in for so long.....



David's efforts to feign injury, (by dramatically falling to the ground) are of course a technique he again yet copied from another source....an approach that would befit an utter pret....(but...oh! dear God.... for a small jar of bull-ants and centipedes to judiciously sprinkle on him, at just such a moment......!)

Thanks for your candor and insights, Apostate.

This thread is hilarious. Al says of me:

For instance I had people contact me through Email pretending to be all sorts of people. Brian and Co have more Email addresses, alias's, personalities than the pentagon.

[welikejesus.com]

Come on, I am just a guy with a laptop and some research skills, not the James Angleton of the anticult world.

You think too much of me, Al-I am not that clever. All I want, is a truce.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2008 12:25PM by zeuszor.

There is hope, Al. My friend Mrs. Betty Bowers runs a ministry for conflicted souls like you. It's called B.A.S.H. Here is their website's address; you should get in touch with them:

[www.bettybowers.com]

Here's one of their fabulous counselors you could speak with. Rex Ray is his name:

[www.bettybowers.com]

It just occured to me: I am not the James Angleton of the anticult world, I am more like the Austin Powers of the anticult world...yeah, baby!

[upload.wikimedia.org]



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2008 05:03PM by zeuszor.

Ezra1 writes about Als report of a church simulating Jonestown's cordial drinking: [welikejesus.com]

"I am still trying to imagine why this particular church would think it was a good idea to compare their set-up scenario with Jonestown. On top of that, to make it seem like people are really "laying down their lives" by swallowing some concoction. To me, and I could be totally alone in saying this, it seems like one of those overly emotional experiences that get people to believe they would really be willing to lose their life for God, when in fact, when looking directly at what Jesus TOLD his followers to do, I wonder if this same congregation would take those things as "seriously" as drinking the solution. The things Jesus told us COULD lead us to our premature deaths are things that we have to work on day in and day out, and witness with our whole lives, not some once and for all show of supposed courage.
It just seems too easy to use gimmicks like this to get people to falsely believe just how spiritual they are."

Hi Ezra,

The People's Temple did a whole lot more than just drink cordial. They forsook all, ran a youth centre, lived a communal lifestyle and did all kinds of "exciting" things, and worked hard on a daily basis to build their jungle compound. As Dave goes on to comment, there were many sincere people involved in that movement, but I am applying my own experience to the scenario here when I say they probably started off "winking" at some of the extreme things that their leader did, believing that the good outweighed the bad, and no doubt many felt in the final stages they really had no alternative.

Some probably saw the "White Nights" (when Jim Jones called on people to prove their faith by drinking Kool-Aid that he said was poisoned, with the promise that their fate was in God's hands) as a theatrical stunt and complied knowing that they were not really drinking poison. But the point was they were. Once a critical mass complied with the hair brained schemes of a man on the edge, they empowered him to push the envelope further, and inch by inch everyone moved closer to mass suicide.

Dave does similarly trying to "break people's bottles". People soon learn it is better to comply and smash your pride, bark like a dog when he says bark, expel when he says expel, shun when he says shun, whip when Dave says whip, because if you question or oppose, it will result in a trust deficit that could involve a long grievance meeting, being demoted, or in some way having your universe unsettled. The end result of unquestioned loyalty is increased autonomy (that is why Roland is left to run things in the UK), so people suspend their normal judgment, believing it will be in their interests in the long term, but also equating such conformity with an act of faith, i.e. trusting God means trusting the experiences of the 'anointed apostle' who can discern things you can't. I am sure that Jim Jones was surrounded by the same mixed sense of pragmatic and gullible conformity. In time the phenomenon of a group endorsing what you first resisted, results in a euphoric sense that it must be OK to suspend your own judgment because everyone else is doing it and it seems to be OK

Dave responds by suggesting that those who resisted the poison died pointlessly for Jim Jones.

"Obviously in Jonestown there were a lot who were murdered, and those who died, did so for Jim Jones, because he had been doing some very dishonest things and was about to get caught. People often commit suicide when caught out breaking the law, but in this case, he took them with him.

But he endorses the message that "we need to be prepared to die for what we believe in" and says...

"I do think that in God's way of judging things, there may be some people there who would still be seen as sincere, but they were definitely misled."

No doubt, sincere people were misled, but its is dangerous to begin commending the conformists as true believers, when it was the individuals who resisted Jim Jones' narcissism and the inertia of the group who should be praised as the standard to emulate. If there is any merit in "dying for what you believe in", it will be found in standing in opposition to the group who envelopes you, isolates you and directs you to do things that undermine your own judgment of what is right and wrong.

Dave had dismissed the shame that JCers expressed when an outsider they were trying to win over responded empathetically to an old woman falling, suggesting that she was complying to a "social conscience" while they had more important things to do in selling his literature. Dave's upside down logic, praises the searing of one's own natural conscience and the elevation of complying to outside logic as a virtue, such that his followers lose any sense of internal orientation. Your head begins to hurt if you try to comply Dave with your own conscience. Just trust Dave, guys, he will work it out for you! (sarcasm)

Lisa Simpson wrote:
"Did you know that you can be a conservative Christian, and believe that our world is billions of years old? You can even believe in evolution and be a Christian. There is no conflict between modern science and the Bible."


Grumpy old Elyas who tells us all that "Jesus loves Osama" responds to Lisa
"Did you know that you can be a conservative Christian, and believe in sleeping around? You can even believe in polyamory [sic] and be a Christian. There is no conflict between being a slut and the Bible."

tsk, tsk, Elyas. Regardless of what you think of Lisa's comments about the origin of humanity there is no need to be so insulting. Looks like Lisa is about to get a taste of how close-minded the JC's are. And I say JC's because Dave backs Elyas up by redefining his point.

And Dave, for you to state that you have a "rational" mind, you must first submit your thoughts to those outside of your insular community, and then see if those thoughts are confirmed by independent of you peers to be correct. Seeing that your thoughts have by and large been rejected by ex members, society, and independent peers, and that you continue to adhere to such thoughts ... your assertion that you have a rational mind is flawed; as a rational mind accepts facts which contradict it. Yours, clearly does not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2008 08:44PM by apostate.

Here is a recently revived and relevant RR thread which some posters on this forum might like to read/contribute/refer to.

[forum.culteducation.com]

[welikejesus.com]

Tofferer writes of me:

Indeed, you engage in illegal activities in your "quest" to destroy the JC's (running interet searches in an attempt to find somebody's e-mail address is a form of stalking and it is illegal). I am still sitting on that e-mail you sent me, debating over whether or not I should delete it or forward it to the proper legal authorities. My advice would be to consider well what you say and do. You have a trackable record of stalking and as such, you are skating on thin ice. Sooner or later somebody is going to get tired of your games and report you. I can't say who or when. Given I am not the first person you've played these immature games with, I know that you will attack somebody else eventually. Such being the case, it could well be that the next person that joins this forum and is supportive of the JC's message ends up filing an official grievance against you when you start stalking them. When that happens, I suspect that all of your posts here and on RR will be ample proof against you in a court of law.


Whatever. It's not illegal to run searches with Google, and it's not illegal to email somebody, and that is not the legal definition of "stalking." All I did was put your screen name ("Tofferer") through a search engine and then go through the hits until I found what I was looking for. That's how I found your real name and email address, Chris. You are the one who made all of your personal information public by putting it out there on the Internet. You said you do not want to me email you again, and I have not, so quit your whining.

You are, like, the Forrest Gump of the Jesus Christians.

Speaking of personal information that you have put out there online for all the public to read (and also speaking of the homosexuality thing), here's something I found just today. If you don't want the general public to read it, then don't publish it online. It's from last February 10 (italics mine):

Sad confession. I am on my second marriage. My first wife left me for another woman back in 1996. She does have son and though she has claimed that he isn't mine, she told the state that he is and as such I do pay child support. In all honesty, this causes me to have serious doubts about my present educational program as I am a seminary student. I doubt that I will ever be fit to serve as the pastor of a church. Still, I would rather get the education if only so that I can better understand what some of the churches are teaching and why it is wrong.

[welikejesus.com]

Another woman? Ouch! That's gotta hurt!

In this and other posts, you tell us your name, where you live, your wife and son's name, everything except for your physical address. And then you complain when people read it and know things about you? Duh...then don't put it out there!

No wonder you're such a self-righteous, typically arrogant high-horse super-Christian type, Chris. When your wife leaves you for another woman, that's got to be pretty emasculating.

You might want to refer your ex-wife to Mrs. Bowers. There is hope.

[www.bettybowers.com]



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2008 04:44AM by zeuszor.

Zeuszor, I am sorry, but I find your rants about a man called Tofferer quite unnessesary, annoying, even offensive. His private business does not belong here, and maybe you no longer belong here.

This thread is about McKay and the trouble he causes to families and members past and present. It's a thread of support for each other.

MISTAKE PLEASE ERASE



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2008 08:29AM by zeuszor.