I see Glen has posted under the Flame thread (on the Jesus Christians site) a link to the Religious Freedom Watch article on Rick Ross.

Not sure if Glen realises that Religious Freedom Watch is allegedly a Scientology front group. The articles on critics have been complied under Scientology's "fair game policy", basically in an attempt to silence critics.
Interestingly, some of the investigators who compiled the reports, have some very interesting "histories" (to say the very least) themselves.

Quakers are generally known for avoiding conflict, so it's taken some guts for some of them to stand up and start asking questions about the Jesus Christians involvement with the Quakers.

Expect to be criticised. Expect to be accused of persecution. Expect that Dave will even acuse you of trying to kill him.

After all. Forty plus members who have left the Jesus Christians, only did so because they are bitter and lack discipline. Parents who criticise are, dysfunctional and of course anyone who doesn't fit those categories must either be an atheist or a loony.

But seriously as Quakers you have every right to question Dave, who regularly suggests Quaker activities are Jesus Christians activities and visa versa.

Dave has a history of aligning himself to established Churches, either to gain legitimacy, to recruit or fundraise (mainly through book sales). The good works are used as a vehicle to attract the type of people that are vulnerable to his type of manipulation.

Quakers please don't be afraid to ask questions. Far better to stand up now, then later, when it may be too late to undue the damage.

[b:c388663fb6]Reinhard was arrested in England over the Bobby Kelly Affair, right? If Rheinhard was arrested in Arizona over a visa issue, dontcha think that might have been because he may have come to the authorities notice over the Joe Johnson case? Both originally were thought of as attempted abductions.

If he hasn't been arrested, just say so and we will move on.[/b:c388663fb6]

[welikejesus.com]

Zeusor, you also asked him straight out in a later post if it was over a visa issue. He was still pretending(?) that you were were suggesting that if was over a kidnapping issue.

It was pretty clear that you were saying that Reinhard came to the authorities attention over the Joe Johnson issue and then you asked the question whether the authorities may also have known about his previous involvement in the Bobby Kelly affair.

Every opportunity was afforded to him to tell the truth about this matter.

He has also been asked a lot of direct questions about his background, his real involvement in the Children of God and other matters. For some reason, God's, "annointed Apostle" seems to have a problem coming up with truthful answers.

QUOTING DAVE:
[i:6445659aea]Reinhard overstayed his visa largely because we knew that if he left the U.S. before the court case...[/i:6445659aea]

So Dave told Reinhard to overstay his visa [i:6445659aea][b:6445659aea](i.e. break the law)[/b:6445659aea][/i:6445659aea] to satisfy his media driven agenda of court cases and whipping trials.

QUOTING DAVE SPEAKING ABOUT THE TRIAL OF JOHN AND JARED:
[i:31dd14925b]but we'll never know, because it all happened in a secret hearing... another injustice as far as we are concerned.[/i:31dd14925b]

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black... sheesh :roll:

I seem to remember a certain Jesus Christian "trial" that was held at a secret location and time during which they whipped each other. Is this an acknowlegement that to do so was an injustice?

I just want you to know that I do not hate you, nor mean you or anybody else any harm. I do not hate you but rather have joy in my heart in calling you my brothers and sisters.

In fact, I actually rather admire and respect you JCs for what you ostensibly stand for. All Christians should want to be more like Jesus in thought, word, and deed. I have learned a lot and gained much insight from studying some of the JC studies online. It's not that I disagree with much of what you have to say with respect to obeying Jesus. Who could? In many respects, [i:941b08b2e5]I think that you are right[/i:941b08b2e5].

It's just that from where I sit, It looks like you are being decieved, all of you. All I see is that the end result of being involved with the JCs means that I eventually wind up on the street hawking DM's books. How is that "forsaking all", "trusting God" and not depending on money? The whole point of being a JC is to raise money for the JC organization, it seems like.

What am I not getting here? What am I misunderstanding?

But why should you listen to me? I am part of the angry mob of bitter souls who hate God and want all JCs wiped off of the face of the earth. That's absurd; again, I love you all as my brother and sisters. In your minds, I am poisoned in my soul with bitterness for not having joined you when I had the chance. (Mt 13:4)

Quote

Organizations are like people. We often cannot see what is wrong with our own behavior. (Psalm 19:12) So it is with groups in general. (Luke 6:41) Insiders, particularly the leaders of a company, often cannot see their organization clearly. To improve they often hire outside consultants. You may have employees that have been overworked and under appreciated by their superiors, but who are afraid to say anything for fear of losing their jobs. Or perhaps the leadership is blocked into looking at a problem in only one way, and needs an outside perspective to find solutions. (Matt. 15:14)

That was written by a man named Jim Guerra. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Do you really think that anybody who questions, challenges, or disagrees with you about JC doctrine is crazy, or else an atheist? What is I had a point?

Following are my five main (generalized) points of objection to JC policy and procedure.

1) Witnessing to and agreeing to meet with minors who are "potentials" is wrong. Period. You have no business talking to any High Schooler who is not yet 18. Respect the rights and boundaries of the parents of these kids.

2) You say you work for love and not money. OK, so what is with all of the constant money-generating schemes? How many JCs live off of the dole? What is with all of the organ and body-fluid donation? Why do you sell David's books on the street? To whom does all of the money go, and who controls it?

Basically, how come it seems like everybody in the JCs has to forsake all exceot for David and Cherry?

3) It seems to met that you have put a legalistic over-emphasis on the red letters (Gal 2:16), and that you constantly negatively judge other Christians and churches by that standard. Your collective attitude and MO seems heavy on judgment and is highly provocative, but I feel no grace from you. (Jam 2:13).

4) (related to 3) You all generally seem to have nothing but contempt for those who would question you. Where are the fruits of the Spirit in what the world can see of the JCs? (Gal 5:19-26)

5) Ash and Joseph, when was the last time you called you mothers and told you that you love them?

[members.tripod.com]

5) Ash and Joseph, when was the last time you called you mothers and told [b:954fe60759]them[/b:954fe60759] that you love them?

David constantly engages in “reaction formation” (a term in psychology to describe those who always “justify” themselves with reference to “earlier” behaviour they mischievously allege on the part of others (e.g.…I had to do that and in “fact” I acted quite reasonably because of the manner in which I you treated me previously…..), and in this vein persistently produces “red herrings” of imagined slights against him (…”on demand”…for each and every occasion!!)

….in David Mckay, we see the stunted development of an individual, who never progressed beyond the psychology of a four year old brat, who has ALWAYS been able to get want he wants by either screaming that little bit louder or lying that little bit more adamantly…..

The purpose of such tactics is of course to prevent David from ever having to address the actual issues of his behaviour, and in accord with the escalatory nature of his “negotiation” strategies to childishly seek to repetitively reinforce the importance of his priorities in any “conversation”….

(David reasons “….I only want what GOD wants…hence I’m not selfish …those who dispute me are!!” and in response to the fact that he lies, steals, extorts…..he counter “accuses” former members of “hurting his feelings” in a variety of fashions…)

You can see exactly such behaviour now on the JC website on the part of David in relation to the recent debate concerning the “house-key”, Ash’s parents’ “owe” Ash…..

The recourse to evade any responsibility for his actions through the invention of bogus accusations against others is or course, tiresomely uninventive these days…(…the least I can say is that (yet again), twenty years ago there was a little “freshness” to his deceit)

This is really, very, very elementary neurotic proclivity that you will find germane to many of the self beguiling “false prophets” under criticism on the RR web-site…

Like so many before him, David stealthily deprives those he mixes with of their livelihood, physical possessions and even the erstwhile ideals they once clung to by playing on the fears and uncertainties he either identifies or later inculcates in others….ultimately overtly bullying, humiliating and belittling those who have had the misfortune to “commit” to the JesusChristians to such an extent, that they can no longer easily extricate themselves….(David has persuaded them that to “leave” would be to abandon themselves to the Devil!)

(Naturally we understand that “smiling” Fran and other leaders in the JC’s have won their “happiness” through obeisance in every regard!!)

It has already been pointed out how David engages others by “labelling” (….demonizing his opponents and seeking to discredit them with smear campaigns which “justify” him not addressing the issues they raise)…..frequently seeking to achieve this by “projecting” his own behaviour and motives on others…(as David cannot “see” outside the filthy prison of his own vain glorious ego….he cannot credit others to have anything other than the base desires which motivate him….)

In the interests of the advancement of medical knowledge and more effective patient treatment, it is common for the very worst and most ghastly tumours, the deadliest and most unsightly cancers, the most putrescently necrological ulcers to be preserved….one wonders then if David, would in a similar vein, be so noble as to ultimately donate himself to science…….forever mummified in some vast jar of formaldehyde and to sit on the desk of some clinical psychologist, (when not on public “tour”), and at last fittingly gaining the wider public recognition, that David has always believed his rightful due….



(Circa 2020….in the main Exhibition Hall of the science section in Sydneys’ Powerhouse museum…a sweet little girl, gaily skipping in and out, amongst the displays comes to a sudden stop…with a sudden sharp intake of breath!...)

“Why Daddy…come here….please…..PLEASE…uggh…..Whats’ THAT?”

(A middle aged man trots up beside her, a little out of breath….then looks up and silently gasps to himself..)

{“Oh my God!!” he thinks …}….Well, just a minute Darling….let me look what it says here….Oh here we are….well, this is someone who…who apparently….mmm…whose… (..ahem!) chronic neurosis was the consequence of becoming so self-deludingly egotistical that he lost all sense of proportion of the consequences of his behaviour on others around him, and as he anabasistically extirpated his conscience, in order to better live out his increasingly self indulgent and malevolent fantasies, pervicaciously regressed to the point where he had the psychological myopia of a small child….there you are, that’s what is says here!

“Oh….so….thats what it is?”

(An uncomfortable silence ensues…while the little girl becomes ever more transfixed in fascinated horror….)

{..starting to become a little distressed...and looking for reassurance} “Oh…that’ll never happen to me…will it Daddy? I won’t be like this at all ever…will I Daddy {..her face whitening at the prospect…}

{Picking up his daughter…} NO no Darling…this man deliberately chose be that way out of the wilful selfishness in his wicked soul…you will NEVER have this problem!!!

Come on…Look Sweetheart!...lets go see Charles Mansons’ encephalogram over there…

{..brightening immediately..} Oh yes Daddy….lets!!!

....and hand in hand, they walk away in visible relief….!