When all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. Put another way, all that they are doing over there (for the most part) is re-creating their respective roles in the group that they used to be a part of, but in a new situational context. They basically IMO are replicating community conditions in denying one's right to disagree, speak an opposing viewpoint, or freely express divergent opinions at all (unless it suits their purposes). But, they cannot see this picture, still being part of the frame. Do you take my meaning there, Mal?

Zeusor,
I think you are being very tough on the ex members, who I personally deeply admire for their integrity.

All forums have rules; who gets banned for saying what depends on the moderators.
That forum has been developed to provide an open honest discussion between members and ex members; I think it is understandable that the moderators don't think that name calling facilitates that. And that fact that JCs are banned by their leadership from even reading it shows (inmo) how deeply threatening honest truthful discussion can be to someone in a cult.
Even in college, I bet you have found there are limits and rules on how you can discuss things in class?

One thing I find useful in matters of this nature is "believe , but fact check", a useful thing in college as well. And I have in the past applied it to your posts, as I'm sure you have applied it to mine..
When someone calls someone else a murderer or a pedophile,( as I think you have called Dave in the past?) the first thing I look for is a couple of unexplained corpses, or ex member claims of pedophilia. They don't seem to be there at all.

Yet other claims made by ex members; whipping for example, are very easy to find evidence for. At that point, it becomes obvious that some of your posts appear to contain hyperbole.
Partly because of this, the other forum is likely to appeal to many as a more accurate viewpoint describing life and difficulties of being a Jesus Christian.
Wishing you all the best in your studies, Zeuszor, and I am glad that your personal and academic life is going so well.
Yasmin

yasmin: I respect and admire the ex-members over there too. Amd speaking of fact checking, please cite an example of my calling DM a murderer or a pedophile. I challenge you to show me where I wrote that.

It's called:

Dave McKay's Jesus-Christians: Free discussion between members and ex-members, supporters and observers.

And not:

Dave McKay's Jesus-Christians: Free discussion between members and ex-members.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2010 05:01AM by zeuszor.

Zeuszor, you have a point.
I did go back over your posts, and on July 23, 2008 you said
" I think that David Mckay is little more than a small time pimp, a glorified con man, a child molester/spiritual pervert/chickenhawk type who does what he does..."
In another post later, you do state that you don't think he actually is a child molester, though later again,
"I think of him as a type of one, as a type of spiritual pedophile, yes.."
You are right, you have never directly called David Mckay a murderer, though you have stated
"This man McKay is dangerous and very sick and more destructive than a rapist or a murderer"
You have also stated
"of course his stuff is replete with allusions to death and violence" and refering to ex members have told them,
"silence equals death" and "you have a moral imperative to do something if you can otherwise the blood is on your hands too"
So perhaps hyperbole but no accusations of murder or pedophilia would have been more accurate? I apologise for misrepresenting what you said.
All the best, Yasmin

Yes, I know what I said, and I stand by it, too. I do not think that what i wrote is hyperbole at all; I think that DM is a very dangerous and exceptionally destructive individual. I think of him as a type of predator of youth.

He is one of the sickest and most destructive predators of youth that I've ever studied, IMO second only to one Feroze Golwalla in terms of his small following, sheer cruelty and conscience-free behavior.

Golwalla was the leader of a cult called Baruch Ha Shem, aka Parsee Ministry Team. Read of Golwalla in RR's archive.

In other words, if I had to make a kind of list of evil, predatory leaders of small, obscure cults consisting of impressionable young kids, Golwalla would be number one, and David McKay would be number two on such a list.

Both IMO are monsters.

Fortunately, BHS has been disbanded, and Golwalla has been stopped, is under virtual house arrest with no followers left; DM is on his way to being stopped, and the JCs are on their way out.

Apology accepted.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2010 11:00AM by zeuszor.

Dave,

I have a question for you. I am posting it here because it's the only way I can ask you, not because of any alliance with others on this forum, so don't give me that rubbish again in your reply.

I have been thinking about your "rolling quotes" banner on your web site. They seem to go on forever, without any repetition, quote after quote from you. Quotes from DAVE. I kept waiting for some quotes from JESUS, but there were none.

So my question is this:

If you are so into JESUS, and what he said, why do you have a banner which quotes DAVE, and not JESUS?

If you are saying your group is following JESUS, why is the banner all quotes from DAVE?

That, Blackhat, is one heck of a good point. That had never occured to me. My compliments.

Quote
Blackhat
Dave,

I have a question for you. I am posting it here because it's the only way I can ask you, not because of any alliance with others on this forum, so don't give me that rubbish again in your reply.

I have been thinking about your "rolling quotes" banner on your web site. They seem to go on forever, without any repetition, quote after quote from you. Quotes from DAVE. I kept waiting for some quotes from JESUS, but there were none.

So my question is this:

If you are so into JESUS, and what he said, why do you have a banner which quotes DAVE, and not JESUS?

If you are saying your group is following JESUS, why is the banner all quotes from DAVE?

This is a recurring theme here on this thread.


[forum.culteducation.com]



Its a very interesting question too blackhat. Jinny once claimed way back in 2006 that

[[color=green:3703469d05]quote="jinnythesquinny" It's abundantly clear that it's Jesus they are following and not Dave. /quote][/color:3703469d05]

What sttod then still stands now. what was true then is true still.

Dave does not even believe in the Bible (Jinnythesquinny) and he leads the group slowly but squarely away from Him.

The way I see it, the Jesus Christians really do not know what they believe, other than that 1) They are personally and spiritually superior to the rest of The Church, as well as to society in general and 2) (related to 1) that everybody is a hypocrite except for them. Jesus Christian belief and world view seem to pretty much boil down to those two points.

The Jesus Christians' members like to freely spread the thought amongst themselves that no one on the earth holds a valid view point on any subject except for members of their group.

Most people would (and do) respond to that arrogant idea by simply saying, “they’re crazy.”

I am of the opinion that Mr. and Mrs. McKay are very disappointed that they didn't become major "players" who got to lead a "movement" of their own.

From Armageddon for Beginners:

Solomon was a good man; but he can't hold a candle to Christ. Nor can anyone who was ever born. As Christ said in prophecies about the last days, people will find many replacements for the true Messiah. (Matthew 24:24) But when they do, their replacement (whoever it may be) becomes an antichrist. (I John 2:18; II John 6-7) The so-called Christian church would rather follow St. Paul, or the Pope, or Billy Graham, or, for that matter, Solomon, than to follow Christ.

See also The Fall of America, Just Do It! and Bin Raiders for writings about Billy Graham.

The Jesus Christians, in like manner, are following David McKay rather than following Christ.

But it's hard to see the picture when you're in the frame, right?

David McKay is implying something in the above texts about how God chose Billy Graham to be an apostle and raise up communities, but Graham chose to defile his conscience in the pursuit of world renown as an evangelist. McKay is basically saying that Billy Graham loves power and fame more than his calling.

In talking in such a disparaging manner about Billy Graham, David McKay gives a really good definition of himself, as it is obvious to me that he loves power and acclaim.

However, the Jesus Christians' "know it all attitude" thankfully only puts people off, and attracts only a mere unfortunate few.

The God of the Jesus Christians punishes and fails to forgive. DM constantly criticizes the faults, weak points and lacks of denominational churches. DM has a knack for identifying the inconsistencies and hypocrisies within the churches, but he also belittles them. DM puts words to what many people, especially young people, feel. There is still this 60’s and early 70’s-style rebellious streak that is still in him; he doesn’t want to cooperate with The System. He continually berates many Christians, even though a considerable number of them have over the years aided him in his work of forming and maintaining the JCs.

If a cult leader maintains control of a follower’s mind, then they can manipulate them. They don’t need to go after their money directly or steal from them. If the cult leader exerts and continues control over the followers mind, then he has access to everything that belongs to the follower.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is my opinion of DM. Every former member that I have read of expresses the same thought about DM and his lust for power and control. The early JCs began with some honorable intentions, but as DM garnered more and more power he became blinded. He is leading all the JCs into a ditch.

In making these statements I am not interested in seeking revenge nor am I trying to be cruel. I am trying to inform people so they can make a choice based on facts. We all know that the JCs will never change as long as DM is the sole uncontested leader. DM may write new teachings or they may live in new places or they may wear their hair different or wear different clothes but the basic theme will always be obedience to DM and his teachings. DM exercises sole unchallenged control over the JCs with no one to keep him in check. DM promotes the idea of checks and balances in his teachings, and that no one person should ever exert sole leadership of a religious movement or community, but his own lifestyle runs contrary to his teachings.

The JCs maintains its own criteria for judging fruit which states “Judge a tree by its fruit. If the fruit is rotten the tree is rotten.” They proclaim that the JCs are for everyone and that those who fail to respond will suffer physical and spiritual death. Community members believe that Jesus only grants protection to them. Young adults leave their parents to join with the JCs. The man and wife relationship is repeatedly tempered with, as well. Because people can’t implicitly obey David McKay some have attempted suicide. Some ex-members have reportedly committed suicide. Although the JCs outwardly promote personal relationships with non-members, these friendships are not allowed to develop or flourish. Many remain in the JCs 5 or 10 years, or for however long, and then get kicked out or they may decide to leave which reduces them to zero financially, spiritually and emotionally. What kind of shape are these folks reduced to after contact with the JCs? This is the visible fruit of the Jesus Christians.

The Jesus Christians should use their own criteria to judge themselves. If they did they would disband and everyone would leave today.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2010 10:47AM by zeuszor.

Read up on one Miller Newton (aka Father Cassian), former clinical director of Straight and KIDS. Newton/Cassian is another narcissistic religious fanatic and predator of children, just like Golwalla and DM. He and DM even look uncannily similar. Compare their photos and see for yourselves. IMO McKay is on a par with these characters. Read of Newton here:

[www.culteducation.com]

[www.culteducation.com]

[en.wikipedia.org]