I do think this thread in general is illustrative of exactly how hypocritically (thanks for the defintion Kimono) psychotic the individual members of the JesusChristians become with the passage of time....the "LuciferSatanists" would be a far more accurate title!

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

David, Fran, Jayme and Kimono have the gall to preach "love" within a paragraph of then attempting to vicariously castigate Jose-David (absolutely unmasked hatred!) for daring both to leave (and worse) to question the "official line" in the maliciously invented history of the injuries suffered by Reinehardt. (Jose-David being kind enough NOT to refer to the court case David McKay well and truly LOST!!!)

May God bless Jose-David for attempting to communicate with those who he once thought to be "friends"....what an effort!!

Hi Mal. I am taking a break from studying Social Comparison Theory (Festiger, 1954) as it relates to Stoner's research on Group Polarization (1961) and take the opportunity now to post a few lines. Someday I'll do my own research on the social psychology of online discussion forums, and focus on different deindividuation conditions as input variables when observing pro-or anti-social online forum behavior. I find this whole phenomenon (online deindividuation) to be simply intriguing. But I digress...

My favorite (if I may use that word) asinine Jesus Christian quotes of all time are from a thread at the old welikejesus forum called "Does Evil Exist?" and are from David himself. It is very telling, painfully ironic, and gives us a clear window into David's mentality, and the mentalities of his cohorts. Of course, it is gone now, removed from the old mirror sites and therefore from the Web. Here is the entire quote, with with italics for emphasis at certain points:

As you probably know, I have used the same terminology that you have used, i.e. that God "created" evil, in order to give us something else to choose, but understanding that the WAY he created it is simply by giving us free choice shows us that evil is just something that comes from our abuse of free choice.

As for this idea about evil not existing, I have found it to be quite practical, especially when I was preaching in Kenya about superstition. The local pastors had encountered a LOT of superstition, which is, essentially, fear of the devil. And so the theme of my preaching was along the lines of recognising that the devil/evil is just the absence of God. When you turn the light on, you realise what a silly thing it is to be afraid of the devil... just like when a parent turns the light on in the bedroom of a child who has just had a nightmare. It doesn't take away ALL of the fear, but it is a very important step in overcoming fear... just to see how much of it is just in our imagination.

So the JCs do not believe that evil exists, just the abuse of free choice. David is telling us that there is no such thing as evil. Therefore, the JCs can do no wrong. Hmmm...I wonder, what did JESUS say on the matter, Apostle? Let's get out out concordance and look for instances of Jesus using the word "evil." The above quote makes it abundantly clear to me that DM believes that whatever David McKay thinks is superior to what Jesus says. "I have found it to be quite practical." Of course you have. With this kind of mentality, one could justify doing just about anything one wants. A child could see that. But not the JCs, apparently.

Also, Mal: the SimonJC you asked about is named Simon SMITH. Simon is approximately 25 years of age. He visited the Jesus Christians around September 2002, and re-established contact with them around August 2003. On October 1, 2003, he went to live with the Jesus Christians in London and joined after a month and a week. So, he's been "in" for over six years now. Simon joined when he was in his late teens, like most of the rest of the JCs.

More later. Back to "12 Angry Men."



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2010 01:44AM by zeuszor.

In the past two days I have studied at length and in some detail the mainly works of Festinger and Aronson (probably for in excess of eight hours total) and have written a very short paper, a social psychological analysis of the film, 12 Angry Men. Then I studied for another class for about an hour and partially organized a presentation that I have to give on Tuesday. A lot of my course materials, readings, PowerPoints, all manner of online resources are web-based, and I find myself online a lot when I study. Please do not become concerned that I am neglecting my studies in making these posts. It takes very little time to do and I can keep RR in another tab while I'm using Blackboard, you know?

So I'm burned out with studying for now and thought I'd post another quote from what I think is one of the most telling of sets of quotes from David that I've come across, the (in my mind) infamous "Does Evil Exist?" thread from a couple of years back. "As for this idea of evil not existing, I have found it to be quite practical..." is a classic. So is this one. I'll never forget this mindbender of a quote later on in the thread:

If the Bible itself was God, then that would be fair enough. But for intelligent people, you START with your own understanding and experience of good and evil, which can LEAD you to taking a more fundamentalist approach to the Bible, or which can lead you to see that there is a great wealth of wisdom and truth in the Bible that is greater than what you could find anywhere else.

??? What do you make of it, Mal?

[forum.culteducation.com]

Dear Zeuszor,

Your studies are fascinating! If you don't mind please link some of your work (privately) across to me....I'd love to read it! (I'll swap you, insight into a "law unit" for insight into a "psychology unit"...?). I congratulate you for the obvious effort you are putting into this and hope that your marks ultimately reflect your endeavour.



There were hints of this when I was a member, however it has become even more obvious of late (say where David remarked some years ago that the JesusChristians could afford to ignore the exact letter of Christ's teachings as they "obviously" lived by it's "spirit").....that David in his heart of hearts, is actually a self-absorbed athiest (....other than where "scripture" can somehow be twisted to confirm his "authority").....who only believes in "himself".

...hence he is in my opinion, here attempting to "gut" the Bible, and alternately promote himself, by stealth. The "double-talk" is the "sheeps' clothing" he requires to disguise his own self promotion, in.

If the Bible itself was God, then that would be fair enough. (A rhetorical question intended to be a subtle slight.....the JC's traditionally do not believe the Bible is God (nor would even most fundamentalist Christians claim it to be)....but "traditionally" the JC's have had a neo-orthodox stance closer to the theology of Karl Barth).

But for intelligent people, (a "naming" and "shaming" ploy to better manipulate listeners...you are ergo UNintelligent if you don't adopt David's opinions as your own) you START with your own understanding and experience of good and evil, (which of course will ultimately equate to David's understanding, won't it!) which can LEAD you to taking a more fundamentalist approach to the Bible, (...NO this is not the path David is seeking others take...Can't you see that David doesn't need the Bible as he has its' "spirit") or which can lead you to see that there is a great wealth of wisdom and truth in the Bible that is greater than what you could find anywhere else.(....and which you can only ultimately access, if you are genuinely sincere, by entering into membership of the JesusChristians....as you can only "access" the bible in the light of David's wisdom).

What is the "strategy" here.....? Wouldn't you think to....

(a) Encourage the audience to remain "faithful",

(b) while discrediting literal dependance on the bible, and

(c) projecting himself as the better alternative.


David narcissistically imagines that he is somehow "sincere"....the bible is the collected works of people who were, no doubt, at best, "no more sincere" than David is....hence they would not have any more ability to perceive the "truth" of God's will than David....and their observations are then best understood with reference to David's wiser interpretation of them. All will be to the good of those who "worship" David (by ceding authority to him!)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2010 10:25AM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Have you ever heard of the Darley-Batson "Good Samaritan Study" (1973)? Not to get too far off-topic, but this is is one the more interesting studies that I have seen lately. Today I studied it thoroughly. Check this out.

[faculty.babson.edu]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2010 10:49AM by zeuszor.

Dear Zeuszor,

Thank you! I enjoyed reading that Zeuszor. Thats a telling study isn't is (albeit a small sample population)...I can imagine the "variable" that would most impact on David McKay's behaviour was if he knew whether or not he'd get "attention" (i.e. media coverage) out of what he did....

Fascinating really....the "disconnect" between what people might claim about themselves and the behaviour that they otherwise resort to...speaking of which

The link leading this thread [www.jesus-teachings.com]has some telling "pained exchanges" on the part of the JesusChristians

....to their "brother" Jose-David....

(...poor Ranger Dan must wonder what he has to do to get away from the spite that dogs the exchanges on the JC forum)



Can't you remember how we all were friends and came by to see you a few times AFTER you left?

What changed in you? We're still the same people you knew and liked then.

Jayme

I remember exchanging some "friendly" (i.e. non antagonistic) mail with David in the first few months following my departure from the JesusChristians (no-one went to the trouble of personally visiting me)....What became clear was that provided, I didn't express any discontent with the JesusChristians we could remain on "good terms".....to "complain" in any fashion would mean I'd suffer the fate of being branded a "MAL-content" (Davids actual words, in attempt at cutting humour) and face "excommunication"....

....when I became specifically aware that "sweet little" David had withheld mail from me, from someone I had once met witnessing and who subsequently stated that he wanted to form a "Christian community" with me.....and indeed behind my back, David had opened my private mail and had written to the gentleman concerned, running me down as best he could and instead directly inviting the man to instead join the JesusChristians, AT THE SAME TIME, that David was writing to me telling me that he could see no need for us to have "poor relations".... the deceit of the man became so undeniable, that I cast aside any thought of remaining "compliantly" neutral, for his benefit....not a member and yet adding to the growing army of enemies that David was building for himself....

I suspect nothing has changed in Jose-David....he is expressing what he felt for years, but always had to suppress....exactly as Jayme would, were he to be outside the system of conformity currently imposed upon him.....


Do you really think you have treated us fairly? And have WE treated you unfairly? It would be good to get some facts about that.

Fran

As I have just stated, the "unfairness" is probably "equally distributed" among those who are beneath David McKay in the pecking order, although I do wonder how Fran hypocritically (thanks again Kimono) remains married while requiring other JesusChristians to be single, in the "best interests" of God, a completely unscriptural practice...

....further as the JesusChristians are an unincorporated body, lacking a constitution or contractural obligations, my understanding is that the practices of the common law in relation to the dissolution of a "Partenrship" (or in the alteration of the structure of the membership) would apply.....here that in the event that Jose-David left the US team (of say four other individuals) that he is entitled to 20% of all that that particular team might hold in cash or resources.....

.....and that consequently this should be reimbursed to Jose-David promptly (given that the JesusChristians for frequently lie that everything they "own" they "hold in common" as the scripture commands).....hence from the facts before us PAY UP, FRAN my old FIEND!!

I'd otherwise again have to sternly WARN against anyone considering membership of the JesusChristians that you WILL be robbed, of everything you own, years of your life, and if possible, the very values you might personally hold dear.


...you feel guilty for not having the courage to live the kind of life that God and your conscience are telling you that you can and should live. Sick David McKay


The projection of guilt in whatever snide way he can manage to extract as much psychological torment as may be possible, from someone "isolated" in the forum he controls and then attacked in numbers.....tells us all we need know about David's "love"...

You live an utterly UNGODLY life David McKay, without conscience, (...as one of the "mockers" described in Jude 1:18 " who should walk after their own ungodly lusts" for power in your instance )for which you David will no doubt rot in hell, in not too many years to come

....but hey, it looks like at least you'll be able to keep some of your present company.....

...while other "David Mckays" will surely come and go..... it's refreshing to remember that they all have overwhelmingly more "failures" in their recruiting than "successes".....and that they are reduced to then consoling themselves that this is because their particular cult only attracts the "purest".....an attitude, the stench of which permeates the mediocre "come uppances" that David is even now, only just capable of....

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

Re:Groups, leadership and money 06/02/2010 08:03

I don't think we'll be hearing from H again. But discerning readers can see (once again) what it REALLY is that makes everyone so angry with us that many of them want to kill us. It's just that we challenge some of the things that they say, and our challenges embarrass them.

David's "challenges" are "false dilemmas" (fabricated dichotomies in life choices (e.g. If you receive a wage you must love money more than God....) to sow self doubt in the vulnerable and to encourage someone to then lay themselves open to Davids "advice") which he copied from his years in the Children of God, recruiting now for his own cult. Discerning readers will perceive this. It would be embarrassing to David to know that he's so transparent, were to have the sanity to be able to realize it.

But Nick Croft, the administrator of the other hate site has also posted on the internet that I am a "rock spider" (i.e. a pedophile), so it's not just poor demented Brian who is spewing out such lies. Then Craig, the second most prolific poster on that site, spread all over the world that I was teaching people to be "killers for Christ". And, of course, the MOST prolific poster on that other hate site actually came HERE and started insinuations that we were aiding pedophiles to molest children in this community.

I would definitely agree with Nick...the majority of those who have taken up membership with the JesusChristians have done so in their late teens or twenties, when they lacked the experience to see through the second rate charlatan that David is. David McKay is a predator in every sense of the word.

Craig is deliberately misrepresented....David absolutely wrote a document (subsequently dishonestly removed from public view) titled "Killers for Christ" which Craig is referring to....do we still have copies of this somewhere, Zeusor? The "most prolific poster" on this site also had some interesting material on Reinhardt, wasn't it, a current member of the JesusChristians (which "the most prolific poster" has been kind enough to not to dwell on.....as we are good enough to presume that Reinehardt has "moved on".....).

Obviously, H isn't saying anything that strong at the moment, but it's where he is heading in his attempts to hide from the truth of what has been said here. It starts with something as simple as a question about the irrationality of a point H or someone else has made, and it sends so many of them into a flight from reality that can easily end in insanity or even murder. How sad!

You are insanely irrational McKay and were you ever to be able to quietly do so, thinking that you could somehow get away with it.....I've no doubt you would murder those who oppose you (the JesusChristian political idealogy of the "Kingdom of Heaven", really could be encapsulated as being little more than being "Nazis" for David,...oh sorry,...what was his name? oh yes...."Christ"....The preceding paragraph is an example of pure projection on your part. How sad!

Yes, it would be so good for H's sanity if he could just single out what it was that was said that was so hateful, and ask himself honestly whether it was more the TRUTH in what was said that made him perceive it as hateful. Otherwise, he is going to do like the others and excuse his own hatred instead.

No, it was the arrogance in your reply....there was nothing in what you said that was true. You will no doubt though David, continue to do as you have done down through the years, (and likely continue doing to your death), excuse your own hatred by lying to yourself that you, and you alone, are "obeying Jesus" thus "justifying" your vile behaviour to all and sundry......(the slander campaigns against Ross's former wife, Betty's father in Kenya, Joe's parents, Ash's family, my mother (at the time of my membership), your own brother (and your own mother on the sly!), Jon Ronson, Jeremy Kyle (and a host of other media personalities who "turned" on you), the Quakers, Sue's family, Craig and the vast majority of former members (threatening their employment with malicious accusations), most disgustingly your own children......the list goes on...and on.....

You are a sick, sick predator McKay living out your own nightmares through those you have entrapped, by persuading them that you somehow have important "insights"(purloined from David Berg) into scripture .....funding yourself through the misdirected attention you have dishonestly created to salve your own vanities....

How can Dave or the Jesus Christians ever be challenged from anybody outside of their circle? In the Jesus Christians' minds, to question Dave's authority or legitimacy is to reveal that one is not "in the Spirit." Therefore, both he and the group are beyond criticism or evaluation. It is analogous to saying, "We are God's group because we have the truth. We have the truth because we are God's group." This is circular reasoning that justifies the Jesus Christians' own existence, as well as Dave's "Divine Authority." Thus, no truly honest dialogue with any of them can ever take place.

As the wraith like mists briefly thin, atop the cold and desolate mountain summit, a gaunt yet grinning David McKay clambers gingerly across the treacherous broken trail that only barely clings to the jagged rock face, over to where a filthily bedraggled and physically stunted man has just somehow managed to drag himself up from the perilous depths of the seemingly fathomless ravine below and where he has now hauled himself in exhaustion, to one side of a old and decrepit rope way, precariously connecting opposing sides of the fearsome precipice......from the abyss below the crackle of boiling lava echoes eerily..

Smirking to himself, having already spent countless days getting acquainted with Assyrian geography, confirming to himself what hues were really the most visually attractive to him, and having studiously devoted himself to the field of orthinography....in cocksure manner now, David stares ahead of him, with rabid and arrogant intensity, when finally accosted by the near blind figure who called out to him, threateningly, from behind his dishevelled and greying hair....


STOP!

Who would cross the Bridge of death,

Must answer me these questions three,

'ere the other side he see...

(Contemptously, David motions for the gatekeeper to hurriedly get to the point)....Yes, yes...I see.... go on will you!

WHAT....is your name?

David of Rochester, Apostle of the gullible...

WHAT.....is your quest?

To have myself considered to be the Holy Grail

(Pauses)......What good have you ever done anyone?

(Clearly struggling for an answer of any sort).....I...well, that is...er....I...AAAaar-r-g-h-h-h........

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2010 04:13PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

K writes:

It wasn't my kitchen table, but you would be pleased to know that we spoke to each other over my brother's kitchen table last night and again this morning... no pink cookies, or anything as controversial as Sisi came up, but it seemed to go well.

[jcs.xjcs.org]

What a wonderful development. Congratulations to all involved. May all go well with all of you. Peace,
B