Did you ever watch the movie "The Gods Must Be Crazy", Mal?

A pilot drops a coke bottle from a plane, it lands in the middle of the Kalahari, a Kalahari Bushman picks it up and it causes all sorts of strife.

In the end the Bushman who found it runs and runs and runs and gets rid of it.

The dossiers? I wish they never got leaked. Just between me and a handful of agencies, I should have left it at that.

Point is, that we can't run and run and run like the Bushman. We'll just have to wait and pray. Doing stuff like antagonizing one another only prolongs the damage done.

Sisi's OK, Mal. There is no reason, I reckon, to castigate her.

Free discussion to help the JCs eventually disband, that it what we are all trying to achieve, I reckon.

Could we all please try to remember it is the CULT we are all working against, and not one another?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2009 12:59PM by zeuszor.

You have your head around facts and figures far better than I Zeuszor,....could you help me with a matter?

How many JesusChristians would have donated organs, and what do you think (if you happen to know) is approximately the amount of money they individually rake in daily for David selling his God-awful tripe?

It would seem to me that through Kidney sales alone, that they would have made claims for "cost reimbusement" of lost "income" of say $1,000/week over the course of four months (or more) which would mean that they would have garnered say $16,000 (over and above all other paid air-fare, hotels and other expenses), per individual "donation".

(...and Reinhardts claims for "lost income" in the current court case would of course be another figure to go by..)

Thus, if say 20 (?) JesusChristians had donated over the years that would have put $320,000 in the hands of McKay (who obviously has enough cash to spare to be able to splash some around on scientology lawyers for himself, these days)

Apart from the legal issues of taxation, no one who has ever left the JesusChristians has signed any legal "waiver" hence the standard commom law rules of disassociation of a partnership, would appear to apply to anyone who left the JesusChristians....

Hence I don't see why somelike Grace...(or Hose-David....or Vicki..and so on and so on) couldn't just turn around and hand David a bill for (at least) $10,500.....that is their rightful share of the goods and chattels of the business partnership that they have now rescinded their membership of....

We are (nauseatingly forever)reminded that the JesusChristians purportedly model themslelve on the Christians in Acts 2:44,45 "sharing all things in common".....thus in law, also sharing liablity for the for dispensation of claims against them by retiring "partners" in the business (David having registered the JesusChristians as an Australian Company in HIS name, I do believe, which would help direct liablity against him personally)...
There are some relevant court cases here.....

Using your "secret dossiers" (or NOT using them....whatever you prefer) and your general scholarmanship, what figures do you think we could be looking at here?

Kidney sales income....literature sales....the CD's....taxable donations to the coffers....the value of the land in Kenya...

What could a departing "partner" potentially hit him with do you think??

Despite his bullshit, I think he'd find the courts would have his hide, if a claim were ever pressed against him......




....



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2009 01:06PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Hmmm...Mal, I'll have to think about this more and get back with you with my detailed analysis.

Off the top of my head though: I conservatively estimate that they'd be grossing, oh, $17,000-$20,000 USD per person, per year, from the literature distribution alone.

These guys certainly have access to funds, and it makes a mockery out of David's claim they are just earning "a few cents to pay for printing."

Then there's the kidneys. As of '05, about half of them had donated. In '09, I believe that all but two or three of the approximately 17 have donated.

About half of Jesus Christians members have donated kidneys

POST-DISPATCH

10/05/2005

Jesus Christians: Nomadic communal religious group
Donated: Kidneys
Issue: Worries about coercion
Group co-founder: David McKay is leader of the Jesus Christians religious group. Members believe they are called to donate their organs so that others might continue living.

One by one, members of the Jesus Christians religious community stepped forward to give away a kidney.

By the end of last year, about half of the 30-member international group had donated at transplant centers across the United States, some traveling from as far away as England and Australia. After the first donated, others were quick to follow.

"There is a real euphoria that seems to follow the operation that is contagious," said Jesus Christians co-founder David McKay, 60. He donated a kidney at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., in January 2003. "Pretty soon, hands were going up and people were asking, 'Can I donate, too? How can I find someone to donate to?' It kind of spread that way. And there hasn't been any hint of regret from any of the people who have donated."

McKay's recipient, whom he met online, paid his travel expenses.

"I was upfront that we met through the Internet and that they were paying my fare to come there," McKay said. "So the hospital was aware of that."

But when four more were set to undergo surgery at the Mayo Clinic, medical center officials got cold feet.

Dr. Steven Textor of the Mayo Clinic said the surgeries were delayed because social workers were worried it would be difficult for anyone to back out.

Officials also were turned off by the group's plan to hold a news conference. So after "much teeth gnashing," the officials agreed to accept the Jesus Christians only on a case-by-case basis, Textor said.

Newspapers in Australia and elsewhere have nicknamed the Jesus Christians a "kidney cult."

McKay bristles at the cult label, saying the group doesn't indulge in "doctrinal heresy, sexual misconduct, mind control or a leaning toward mass suicides." He said he has been portrayed unfairly as a "mind-control manipulator" who coerces members to donate kidneys so he can get publicity.

It's a nomadic, communal group. Members travel across the United States, England, Australia, Kenya and elsewhere, usually in campers and RVs. On their Web site, they are instructed to "forsake all," including families, friends and jobs.

The group says its commitment to organ donation is rooted in Scripture. Members say they're practicing what the apostle Paul preached when he urged Romans to present their bodies as "living sacrifices." On their Web site, they cite John the Baptist, who asked crowds seeking baptism to give proof of their repentance. One such proof would be for those who had two, to give to those who had none, the site says.

"In the light of these instructions, we feel that it is only reasonable that we do what we can to save or dramatically improve the quality of another person's life, by giving one of the two kidneys that we now have to someone else," the Web site says.

The Jesus Christians were harshly criticized by Australian health officials after they admitted lying to get around a ban there against donating to a stranger. Officials of one state, New South Wales, where McKay lives, recently announced they were lifting the ban.

In the United States, two Jesus Christians have given kidneys anonymously, a few have found recipients through the Internet and others were referred to recipients by former kidney patients who already had been helped by members of the group. McKay said transplant staff knew group members were finding their own recipients, and approved.

If true, the centers would be violating a long-standing guideline that good Samaritan donors be kept anonymous - and apart from their recipients - before the surgery. Meetings typically take place afterward with mutual consent. Textor said since the donor-recipient pairs had already introduced themselves to each other, the transplant team listed them as friends or acquaintances, even though they met over the Internet.

Jesus Christians member Rene Gonzalez said organ donation proved to be a way out of his spiritual rut. He donated in September 2003 in Los Angeles, where he was living. "I was praying for God to use me," Gonzalez said. "Even if I had died while donating, then it would have been dying for something positive."

According to McKay, the group's organs continue to be in great demand. It hasn't been easy to tell people in search of type O donors that the group has no more members with that blood type, McKay wrote in the Jesus Christians newsletter in July.

"However, there are still a couple of A, B and AB members who are not linked up with potential recipients."

(end article)
My commentary:

There are a number of references in Jesus Christians literature regarding their willingness to die for what they believe and this is a further area of major concern.

Jesus Christians are indoctrinated and heavily influenced by reading McKay’s literature which he has designed to have a similar effect to reading MO Letters.

This is an example of how that influence works in practice. We read in McKay’s literature: A New Motivation page 3:

“Anything that isn’t worth dying for isn’t worth living for!”

Now note in member Rene Gonzales’ quote from the above media article, how interprets that and puts that teaching into practice:

Jesus Christian’s member Rene Gonzalez said organ donation proved to be a way out of his spiritual rut. He donated in September 2003 in Los Angeles, where he was living. "I was praying for God to use me," Gonzalez said. "Even if I had died while donating, then it would have been dying for something positive."

While the actual act of donating a kidney is noble, Gonzalez has obviously been taught that he should be prepared to lay down his life for the Jesus Christian cause and ignore any consequences to himself.

See also:

[www.vosizneias.com]

New York - The New Jersey corruption probe that the arrest of a New York man accused of black-market kidney trafficking has drawn attention to what transplant experts say is a look-the-other-way attitude at some U.S. hospitals about the source of organs. Some hospitals do not inquire very deeply into the origin of the organs they transplant because such operations can be highly lucrative...

Lots of money involved here...more later.

Thank you Zeuszor,

I see that Kevin has kindly seen fit to post all the names of the JC members that he is aware of......(after castigating you for "breach of privacy"?)....I appreciate his help as that will assist verify who we know to have donated and who hasn't....Reinhardt would be an interesting start...as if was prepared to sell his very own kidney in a fund raising and publicity seeking stunt for the cult that he works for, it would seemingly contradict any assertion in court that he is simply an "independent member" of some "loose" so-called "Christian organization"....

The degree of the control over the lives and incomes of individuals of course DIRECTLY relevant to the impressions that any any family might reasonably draw as a deleterious effect over the lives of any of their children ensnared in unpaid servitude to McKay Inc.

The McKays and Craig appear to be only concerned with their own families' self-interests.

By DM not knowing what is being collected and what is being sent out, he feels less in control.

We are dealing with a cult leader ie a control freak.

His classic response to virtually everything, is to use his journalistic skills to manage each PR crisis that comes along and to counter attack. Typically that includes naming his critics publicly, discrediting the critic by negative information, downplaying any evidence collected, etc.

However, if David doesn't know what is being said, he is absolutely helpless. It creates fear, he becomes disorientated. He retreats, makes mistakes.

But now he has an opportunity to be back in control. To manipulate to get the info.

They fall for it. They think they are being fair and ethical, but they are being manipulated.

David will then use any information, believing he has it all (which he hasn't) to maintain, "the rebels" don't have anything on him, it was all bluff, etc, etc.

He will come out winning the propaganda war.

The attention has come off McKay to people feeling sorry for him and his family. The XJC crew is having a field day, using it as an opportunity to castigate me.

David not knowing anything exploited his weakness, and how he is now turning it to his advantage. These guys underestimate him at every turn.

The Dude Abides!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2009 08:59AM by zeuszor.

Hey Zeuszor,
I have been trying to write this and I don't know how.
Philosophically our positions on peoples' right to privacy are extremely different,and I realize we don't have to agree on everything, but even so it does not seem fair that you have made a decision to possibly sacrifice other peoples' futures.Will people have more trouble getting jobs because of this? Lose a job? Lose a friend? I don't know.And neither do you.
Tony b's post about what harm we can do in the name of love is deeply moving,and in mho, well worth reading.
Craig, I think was once your friend. And if he is fearing harm to his family, the response of a friend, or even (imo) an ex friend and decent person is to try and mitigate that harm. Yet it seems to come across that you despise him for worrying about what might happen to his family.
Am aware that when posting on the internet things come across very differently from how they are intended to sound, so I may have completely misinterpreted your attitude on this.
It may be that you want to help, regret harm,and don't know what to do to put the genie back in the bottle.
Or it may be that you truly believe that harm to to other people is okay as long as you achieve the goal you want.
Suspect I may be a little older than you Zeuszor.Just something I've learned; have found that throughout life, that the one thing you never regret is kindness, particularly when you are in a position of power over someone else.. And sometimes it heals more than anything else ever does.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2009 10:47AM by yasmin.

The XJC group don't want to appear to be at all contentious, for the most part. It's all about doing the opposite of what DM does. Apparently, they do have a strategy.

But, IMHO, everybody over there at XJCs is so concerned about trying not to be like DM, they often don't make the best of decisions.

But I am one to write of not making the best of decisions though, right? So who am I to say? What do I know?

Dear Zeusor,

Thank you for reminding me again, of the manipulative "jargon" used to entrap one.

“Anything that isn’t worth dying for isn’t worth living for!”

...that hoary old chestnut culled from the past, and used to "incentivize" the troops....

to persuade those that "worship" McKay (by David's OWN definition whoever you give your time to, you "worship"....and hence the JesusChristians, spending their time selling David's written work, to then further finance the expansion of their empire, do indeed "worship" him...)

"Anything that isn't worth dying for isn't worth living for!"

How true!.....but lets not forget that

David McKay's empire is certainly NOT worth dying for.... NOR is it even remotely worth living for....

Prostituted scriptures that are intended to misleadingly give the impression

that ONLY membership of the JesusChristians is "real" service to God

(a technique David filched from his years selling the Children of God in Broken Hill, Australia)

DO NOT produce the "Kingdom of God" out of his abusive, medieval satrapy (of a pecking order of internal "leaders")

NOR are they PERSUASIVE REASONS for ever abrogating one's right to choose what is "worth dying for",

to the self-interested "instructions handed down from Apostle McKay.

(Those who refuse, then branded as craven to their own "pride" in order to humiliate and isolate them in "grievance procedures")



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2009 03:47PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Dear Zeuszor,

I remain strongly supportive of your efforts.....(really we should organize a "Cruise" for ourselves, somewhere shouldn't we....!)

While it seems a little "ironic" to me that Kevin should now produce the "private information" that he criticized you for "holding over the heads" of others,

where you write about the "strategy" at the jcs.xjcs site....I'd think it'd be better not to speculate in public about what that strategy might consist of....

I personally haven't spoken to Kevin for decades nor have I ever met Craig.

They have "families"...so do I. I imagine that you do too. Let them approach McKay in the fashion that they feel most confident with.

We may not agree with their "approach"....but we don't have to agree with it....(just as they might not care to "endorse" you or I)....just let them be who they choose to be!

Quote
Malcolm Wesley WREST
Dear Zeuszor,

I remain strongly supportive of your efforts.....(really we should organize a "Cruise" for ourselves, somewhere shouldn't we....!)

While it seems a little "ironic" to me that Kevin should now produce the "private information" that he criticized you for "holding over the heads" of others,

where you write about the "strategy" at the jcs.xjcs site....I'd think it'd be better not to speculate in public about what that strategy might consist of....

I personally haven't spoken to Kevin for decades nor have I ever met Craig.

They have "families"...so do I. I imagine that you do too. Let them approach McKay in the fashion that they feel most confident with.

We may not agree with their "approach"....but we don't have to agree with it....(just as they might not care to "endorse" you or I)....just let them be who they choose to be!

Thank you Mal, and I support your efforts.

"Satrapy". Now there's a word I have never heard before!

Quote
yasmin
Hey Zeuszor,
I have been trying to write this and I don't know how.
Philosophically our positions on peoples' right to privacy are extremely different,and I realize we don't have to agree on everything, but even so it does not seem fair that you have made a decision to possibly sacrifice other peoples' futures.Will people have more trouble getting jobs because of this? Lose a job? Lose a friend? I don't know.And neither do you.
Tony b's post about what harm we can do in the name of love is deeply moving,and in mho, well worth reading.
Craig, I think was once your friend. And if he is fearing harm to his family, the response of a friend, or even (imo) an ex friend and decent person is to try and mitigate that harm. Yet it seems to come across that you despise him for worrying about what might happen to his family.
Am aware that when posting on the internet things come across very differently from how they are intended to sound, so I may have completely misinterpreted your attitude on this.
It may be that you want to help, regret harm,and don't know what to do to put the genie back in the bottle.
Or it may be that you truly believe that harm to to other people is okay as long as you achieve the goal you want.
Suspect I may be a little older than you Zeuszor.Just something I've learned; have found that throughout life, that the one thing you never regret is kindness, particularly when you are in a position of power over someone else.. And sometimes it heals more than anything else ever does.

Yasmin: can you please post a link to the post by Tony that you write of? I cannot find it.