Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: August 05, 2009 12:22AM

You're making a big mistake by communicating privately with, or giving any information to, this "Connor", Mal. If you're not careful, you could blow it for a lot of people. Mark my words.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: August 06, 2009 09:36AM

About half of Jesus Christians members have donated kidneys



Jesus Christians: Nomadic communal religious group
Donated: Kidneys
Issue: Worries about coercion
Group co-founder: David McKay is leader of the Jesus Christians religious group. Members believe they are called to donate their organs so that others might continue living.

One by one, members of the Jesus Christians religious community stepped forward to give away a kidney.

By the end of last year, about half of the 30-member international group had donated at transplant centers across the United States, some traveling from as far away as England and Australia. After the first donated, others were quick to follow.

"There is a real euphoria that seems to follow the operation that is contagious," said Jesus Christians co-founder David McKay, 60. He donated a kidney at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., in January 2003. "Pretty soon, hands were going up and people were asking, 'Can I donate, too? How can I find someone to donate to?' It kind of spread that way. And there hasn't been any hint of regret from any of the people who have donated."

McKay's recipient, whom he met online, paid his travel expenses.

"I was upfront that we met through the Internet and that they were paying my fare to come there," McKay said. "So the hospital was aware of that."

But when four more were set to undergo surgery at the Mayo Clinic, medical center officials got cold feet.

Dr. Steven Textor of the Mayo Clinic said the surgeries were delayed because social workers were worried it would be difficult for anyone to back out.

Officials also were turned off by the group's plan to hold a news conference. So after "much teeth gnashing," the officials agreed to accept the Jesus Christians only on a case-by-case basis, Textor said.

Newspapers in Australia and elsewhere have nicknamed the Jesus Christians a "kidney cult."

McKay bristles at the cult label, saying the group doesn't indulge in "doctrinal heresy, sexual misconduct, mind control or a leaning toward mass suicides." He said he has been portrayed unfairly as a "mind-control manipulator" who coerces members to donate kidneys so he can get publicity.

It's a nomadic, communal group. Members travel across the United States, England, Australia, Kenya and elsewhere, usually in campers and RVs. On their Web site, they are instructed to "forsake all," including families, friends and jobs.

The group says its commitment to organ donation is rooted in Scripture. Members say they're practicing what the apostle Paul preached when he urged Romans to present their bodies as "living sacrifices." On their Web site, they cite John the Baptist, who asked crowds seeking baptism to give proof of their repentance. One such proof would be for those who had two, to give to those who had none, the site says.

"In the light of these instructions, we feel that it is only reasonable that we do what we can to save or dramatically improve the quality of another person's life, by giving one of the two kidneys that we now have to someone else," the Web site says.

The Jesus Christians were harshly criticized by Australian health officials after they admitted lying to get around a ban there against donating to a stranger. Officials of one state, New South Wales, where McKay lives, recently announced they were lifting the ban.

In the United States, two Jesus Christians have given kidneys anonymously, a few have found recipients through the Internet and others were referred to recipients by former kidney patients who already had been helped by members of the group. McKay said transplant staff knew group members were finding their own recipients, and approved.

If true, the centers would be violating a long-standing guideline that good Samaritan donors be kept anonymous - and apart from their recipients - before the surgery. Meetings typically take place afterward with mutual consent. Textor said since the donor-recipient pairs had already introduced themselves to each other, the transplant team listed them as friends or acquaintances, even though they met over the Internet.

Jesus Christians member Rene Gonzalez said organ donation proved to be a way out of his spiritual rut. He donated in September 2003 in Los Angeles, where he was living. "I was praying for God to use me," Gonzalez said. "Even if I had died while donating, then it would have been dying for something positive."

According to McKay, the group's organs continue to be in great demand. It hasn't been easy to tell people in search of type O donors that the group has no more members with that blood type, McKay wrote in the Jesus Christians newsletter in July.

"However, there are still a couple of A, B and AB members who are not linked up with potential recipients."

(end article)
My commentary:

There are a number of references in Jesus Christians literature regarding their willingness to die for what they believe and this is a further area of major concern.

Jesus Christians are indoctrinated and heavily influenced by reading McKay’s literature which he has designed to have a similar effect to reading MO Letters.

This is an example of how that influence works in practice. We read in McKay’s literature: A New Motivation page 3:

“Anything that isn’t worth dying for isn’t worth living for!”

Now note in member Rene Gonzales’ quote from the above media article, how interprets that and puts that teaching into practice:

Jesus Christian’s member Rene Gonzalez said organ donation proved to be a way out of his spiritual rut. He donated in September 2003 in Los Angeles, where he was living. "I was praying for God to use me," Gonzalez said. "Even if I had died while donating, then it would have been dying for something positive."

While the actual act of donating a kidney is noble. Gonzalez has obviously been taught that he should be prepared to lay down his life for the Jesus Christian cause and ignore any consequences to himself.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Blackhat ()
Date: August 06, 2009 08:49PM

As the JC Forum is down (again) at the moment, I would like to post the following from my postings on the XJC Forum, so that Jesus Christians who are barred from reading the forum can see them:

JC's illegally whipping a volunteer in Kenya

I am not only appalled by Dave organizing for a local Kenyan volunteer to be whipped for a petty stealing, I am also very concerned for the impact upon the Kenyan person who actually was placed in the position of administering the lashes.

The member of the Jesus Christians who administered the lashings in the United States publicity whipping has since left the group, and is clearly disturbed by what happened to him and the way he was coerced to administer this punishment.

We have yet to hear from the person in Kenya who similarly was persuaded to administer the whipping for the Jesus Christians, but I can imagine that the person still carries the burden of what he did under social duress to do what the benefactors in his community asked.

Dave complains that the Quakers treated him badly, but truly, these acts are totally and utterly what Quakers are opposed to. To whip someone, either by way of expressing penitence, or by way of avoiding any Civil action, is totally and utterly not what Quakers are about. That, I believe, is one of the reasons why the Australian Quakers took away Dave's membership. Not because of gossip!!!!!!! He didn't "Out Quaker the Quakers" as he claims, he violated one of the basic principles they have held for centuries!


I also want to say that I have viewed the footage as supplied of the assault on Reinhardt. I am also appalled that people would do this. If you think your son is going to be taken away by a cult, and you know that the cult is dubious, maybe you think that kicking the person who has come from the cult is ok. In my belief, it is not ok. Maybe it is worth the sum asked for. The courts will decide. But viewing that footage, I can understand the person being kicked asking for compensation.

When Ash was first involved with this cult, from what I saw on Australian Story, his parents refrained from this kind of response. And so I support them. They tried every non-violent approach they could find to establish relations with him. It is an example of a way to deal with this problem in a non-violent way.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Blackhat ()
Date: August 06, 2009 11:13PM

Personally, I hope Reinhardt gets the appropriate compensation, leaves the Jesus Christians, does good works with the money, and David McKay never gets his hands on a cent of it!

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: August 07, 2009 01:28AM

Below, you will see that I have found the original post from David that acknowledges there was indeed a Killers for Christ article/teaching, and it also shows he wrote the story that Blackhat was asking about.

Feel free to disseminate this information as you wish. Perhaps Long Beach could use it, too?

This was previouly posted to the old welikejesus forum through the following link, but it has since been taken down.


See the Google search results:


Also I noticed that the JC site had a poster called annajohanna with a location of the Netherlands. Co-incidence or? I think not!

Post from David follows:


by Dave » Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:43 am

People didn't expect that I was going to leave it to everyone else to do the saying, did they?

Anyway, here are some of MY thoughts on the subject of being killers for Christ.

Yes, there was an article years ago, called Killers for Christ. I take it that it's not in our latest collection of articles. That looks like a good sign... if Craig is worried about where that article was leading. On the other hand, I cannot think of anything I said in that article that I don't still support.

I think it was around the same time when I was in India (with Craig) and there were some dangerous riots going on. We had a balcony overlooking a busy street, where a parade was coming, and I kind of had a fantasy about a crazed killer going down the street shooting or stabbing people, and me with a rifle there on the balcony. Would I shoot the guy? Although I would hope that I could just cripple the guy enough to let others get away, I felt at peace with the thought that, if necessary, I would probably go ahead and kill him.

I shared it with others in the community, and I think there was a pretty strong reaction against it. Nevertheless, I still feel that way today. But like with so much pacifist teaching, it is much easier to talk theory than to actually practice it. I might change my mind at the last minute, and some of those who say they would not shoot might find themselves shooting. It's all just so much theory in the end.

I'll leave it there for now.


Posts: 3034

Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:02 am

Location: Sydney, Australia

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: August 07, 2009 01:40AM

Oh yes, I looked around a little more and here it is, archived on what appears to be a welikejesus mirror or some such. Here DM is writing of "Killers for Christ":


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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: August 08, 2009 01:55AM

Daniel Suelo: Free spirit or freeloader?

He has lived in a cave without cash for almost a decade. Is he an inspiration or does he does rely on the rest of us spending money, asks Hilary Osborne

Dollar bills are a thing of the past for Daniel Suelo

A latter-day prophet or an irredeemable hobo – what would you call a man who has lived without money since the turn of the century? That's the debate that's going on around Daniel Suelo, an American man who claims not to have touched a dime in almost nine years.

Suelo, who was recently profiled in the US magazine Details – presumably between glossy ads for expensive watches and shirts, lives in a cave in Utah and gets by eating food he has found either wild or in rubbish bins around town. He doesn't have a pension or health insurance, and doesn't claim benefits but he hasn't opted out of human society completely – as well as scavenging unwanted food he keeps a blog. On it he explains the reasons for his lifestyle: "When I lived with money, I was always lacking. Money represents lack. Money represents things in the past (debt) and things in the future (credit), but money never represents what is present."

But is Suelo really living without money, or is he only able to get by because other people are spending? Some of the commenters on the Huffington Post are not convinced. Frelnc, for example, says Suelo has "just found a way to get others to pay the bill" and that he lives near a town popular with tourists who are willing to help him out.

He adds: "He's just a smart man who figured out how to live on the leavings of society. A post-consumer scavenger. Nothing more."

But other people seem to find inspiration in his way of life. Commenter smchp says: "Anyone who is observant and travels to a third world country will quickly realise that we are not as happy as they are. It's that simple! Yes, you can find many reasons why we have it better than them and live longer but you cannot deny that by comparison we lead dull uninteresting lives."

On his blog Suelo answers the question, "You say you don't use money, yet aren't you using products of the money system and relying on the hard-earned money of others?" by asking: "Are swallows nesting in house atticks [sic] dependent upon money? Are pigeons nesting on bank skyscrapers dependent upon money? Are barnacles clinging to aircraft carriers and corals living on buried artifacts [sic] dependent upon money?"

Which possibly isn't going to silence the critics.

It seems fair to suggest that Suelo couldn't have the lifestyle he has now if everybody else did the same. For a start he doesn't seem to be producing his own food or clothes. He has also rejected bartering as "simply money in a less convenient form" so couldn't live in a society where skills were traded. So does that mean he is wrong to reject money outright? Or should he be applauded for taking a stand and sticking to it for so long?

Posted by Hilary Osborne Thursday 23 July 2009 15.11 BST

***end article***

I take it the photo on welikejesus is of Grace and Suelo? The age difference is probably explained in terms of her still needing a leader and father figure.

Suelo strikes me as a bit of a con man. He seems to have an extended family and group of friends that he house-sits for, mooches off, etc. He might ride the trains, bicycles, and sleep in a cave from time to time, but I suspect it like going on an extended camping trip for him. His blogs seem to suggests he always eating at family & friends places.

He sure is suddenly doing a lot of publicity, maybe Grace's influence?

Apparently, there is a colour article in DETAILS about this guy. With a photo and his background, etc.

It is on the net, too, but available by subscription only.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: August 08, 2009 02:40AM

Here's something:


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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: August 08, 2009 10:09AM

It annoys me when Blackhat and others fall for David's trick of getting public opinion on his side. That was his whole purpose of posting the video ahead of the trial.

So, I am going to write a few things about the use (or should I say abuse) of the cell phone video on Youtube by McKay, and I will post it later, when I have finished.

More then...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2009 10:10AM by zeuszor.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: matilda ()
Date: August 09, 2009 12:20AM

Matilda If you would be willing to forward any "Killer For Christ" information you have, the PI would add it to his file.
Time is of essence.
Thank you.

You wont need the hard copy anymore

I hink you will find this in the archives of their website. Perhaps Dave could guide you to it or see here


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