Gotta love this concession from Dave towards women:

"God can speak through a woman; but he will be most likely to do so when the woman is humble" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
[i:5098d30945]
Taken from his rolling quote script on his updated JC homepage.[/i:5098d30945]

Wait, here is another one about discipling everyones else around them:

"We need to see the kingdom of heaven as being much bigger than our little organisations, at the same time that we continue to [b:9138ac7908]do all we can[/b:9138ac7908] to organise and discipline ourselves [b:9138ac7908]and[/b:9138ac7908] those around us"

Talk about being a control freak

Dear Eoin,

I presume that your "family member" is now safely out of Davids' tyranny?

Please continue to post (or otherwise stay in touch) as it is important to be able to piece together the sordid history behind David in order that we might be better able to contradict his deceptive charade of "biblical truth" and "unwarranted persecution"....

Malcolm

I recently ran into a young man whose " Aunt" had turned to the Jesus Christians for help. He was full of anger as he described how they wanted nothing do to with her. He was incredulous that they had the audacity to call themselves Christians. It's good to see that the truth has a way of coming out. :D

[b:6f8edb2208]The article below is a copy of an official statement to the High Court of Kenya after one of their members was arrested by Kenyan authorities. This was submitted as a statement about what the Jesus Christians profess to “believe”. This is coming directly from David McKay himself who fully understands the meaning of perjury.

The article will be include quotes from David McKay that contradict these professed public beliefs and reveal that has written this statements as a means of presenting a mask of respectability to those in authority. He uses his “honest to whom” ideology to justify lying to those outside his group.

What Dave really teaches and believes will be shown in[/b:6f8edb2208] [i:6f8edb2208]Italics[/i:6f8edb2208].

Begin article:
___________________________________________________________________________



The following article was prepared as an official statement to the High Court in Kenya about what the Jesus Christians believe. We do not have an official creed, and so we were not able to give a formal statement that can be applied equally to all members. However, we have, in this article attempted to address some of the most common concerns that people have about us, especially in relation to whether or not our teachings are "heretical" or "cultish" (meaning in contradiction of traditional church teachings).
10 September, 2005
Jesus Christian Beliefs

- by Dave McKay, co-founder
The Jesus Christian communities started around 1980, as a result of an experiment by my wife, Cherry, and myself to practice literally the teachings of Jesus.
Although there are, amongst various Christian groups, differences of opinion about how some of the teachings of Jesus should be interpreted, the Jesus Christians have been seen as exemplary in their attempts to discern the spirit of what Jesus taught, and to apply it in today's world. It is significant that even our worst enemies tend to condemn us on the grounds that we are "too extreme" in our adherence to the teachings of Jesus.

[b:6f8edb2208]It is a fabrication by David McKay to say that his group is criticized because of their “extreme adherence to the teachings of Jesus”… rather it is because of the extreme opposition he practices to such teachings. [Author][/b:6f8edb2208]

Pacifism
If, for example, Jesus says to love our enemies, we take it so far as to believe that we should not participate on either side in the event of a war. There are hardly any teachings that the Jesus Christians support which are not supported by some other Christians denominations. With the teaching about pacificism, for example, such groups as Mennonites, the Amish (in America), some Brethren groups, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Quakers all teach the same for their entire membership. While other Christian denominations do not teach pacifism as a fundamental requirement for all Christians, they virtually all accept it as one valid interpretation of the teachings of Jesus, and they do have and support members who believe and practice pacifism.
Similar patterns emerge with regard to other Jesus Christian beliefs which have been labelled as extreme.

[b:6f8edb2208]The above sounds quite good doesn’t it? But what does Dave REALLY think when asked whether he would be a “killer for Christ”.[/b:6f8edb2208]

[i:6f8edb2208]I think it was around the same time when I was in India and there were some dangerous riots going on. We had a balcony overlooking a busy street, where a parade was coming, and I kind of had a fantasy about a crazed killer going down the street shooting or stabbing people, and me with a rifle there on the balcony. Would I shoot the guy? Although I would hope that I could just cripple the guy enough to let others get away, I felt at peace with the thought that, if necessary, I would probably go ahead and kill him. I shared it with others in the community, and I think there was a pretty strong reaction against it. Nevertheless, I still feel that way today.[/i:6f8edb2208]

(SOURCE: [welikejesus.com])

[b:6f8edb2208]Dave does this because he sees it as his groups responsibility to “discipline” all those around him.[/b:6f8edb2208]
[i:6f8edb2208]
"We need to see the kingdom of heaven as being much bigger than our little organizations, at the same time that we continue to do all we can to organize and discipline ourselves and those around us"[/i:6f8edb2208] [b:6f8edb2208](Taken from his Jesus Christian’s Home page rolling quote list)[/b:6f8edb2208]

[b:6f8edb2208]The whipping of a Kenyan volunteer for sin committed against them in some sort of sick “experiment” of communal justice is the beginning of the outworking of his “revolutionary” desire to “discipline” others. [/b:6f8edb2208]

[i:6f8edb2208]Our decision to return to the whip as a form of punishment is actually based on a desire to shorten the period of punishment at the same time that we sharpen the message about punishment. Whips have been used in just about every culture, as a form of punishment, because they inflict a lot of pain without causing much more than superficial and temporary injury to the body.
We have already experimented with an offender in Kenya. A young man had stolen some things from us and sold them to buy home brewed wine. We offered him the option of receiving five lashes of the whip (and signing a paper to the effect that he had done so willingly, that it was because he had in fact stolen from us, and that he was sorry for his behaviour). He gladly accepting the flogging, which was carried out in the presence of local village representatives. The young man is now back working with us as one of our volunteers. (We already suspect that our friend in Kenya is quietly boasting about how easily he got away with stealing from us.)
There is much more that we could say about this new experiment. We are trying to be realistic about the problems we are going to face with it; but we are also hopeful that we have hit upon something which is truly Christian and truly revolutionary.[/i:6f8edb2208]
(Source: [cust.idl.net.au])

[b:6f8edb2208]Still think they are “pacifists” of the “extreme” variety practicing “something which is truly Christian and truly revolutionary”?[/b:6f8edb2208]

Living by Faith
Members live together and share a common purse. This is consistent with what the early Christians did, as recorded in Acts 2:44-45: "And all that believed were together, and had all things common, and sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need."
The pattern is further described in Acts 4:32-35:
"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul. Neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus; and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked, for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, and laid them down at the apostles' feet, and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need."
The Jesus Christians ask new members to renounce all private ownership on joining the community. This is based on the teaching of Jesus which says (Luke 14:33):
"So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsakes not all that he has, cannot be my disciple."
and the further teaching of Jesus (Luke 12:33):
"Sell what you have, and give alms. Provide yourselves bags which do not wax old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches, neither moth corrupts."
The concepts of voluntary poverty, communal living, and faith ministries appear sporadically in Christian denominations as diverse as high church Anglicans and Pentecostal fundamentalists. In fact, the Jesus Christians have been referred to as "the new Franciscans" because their lifestyle is so similar to that of St. Francis of Assissi, one of the most popular of Christian saints. All that makes the Jesus Christians different from other denominations in this regard is that their entire membership chooses voluntary poverty, lives communally, and operates as a faith ministry. It is this aspect of the group's teachings which most frequently upsets parents, who strongly wish for their grown children to be wealthy and respectable. Even in organisations such as the Catholic Church, where centuries of tradition have brought a deep sense of respectability to the priesthood, it is still quite common for parents to object strongly if their son or daughter chooses to become a priest or nun.
[b:6f8edb2208]
For a group that professes to “live by faith”, “not work for money”, “renounce private ownership”, and “sell all that they have” to “have all things in common” they are certainly fixated on systems, money, private possessions, and hierarchical structures. This is what he teaches his followers behind closed doors[/b:6f8edb2208]

[i:6f8edb2208]You may find it best to keep funds in [b:6f8edb2208]more than one bank account[/b:6f8edb2208] (or one account that requires several signatures), and if you have more than one vehicle, register each one in a different name... favouring [b:6f8edb2208](of course)[/b:6f8edb2208] those members who have the most proven records of reliability. New members [b:6f8edb2208]especially[/b:6f8edb2208] need to relinquish all private ownership [b:6f8edb2208]until[/b:6f8edb2208] they have shown an ability to handle funds without selfishly abusing that power. So even when they bring a vehicle into the community that is registered in their name, it is generally wise to either sell it or transfer the title.
If you are likely to be handling large amounts of money, you may need to check into what is required to cover yourself with regard to taxation. This will vary from country to country.
Although we are giving all vehicles and all stocks of books to the various bases, we are asking that each base set aside what cash you have when the new arrangement begins, to be used only for projects endorsed by the Kenya team (e.g. travel costs for personnel movements, charitable projects, or print jobs already underway at the moment).
Each base will need to decide whether or not to give pocket money or cash bonuses as incentives, and as opportunities for members to develop personal responsibility with regard to how they use personal funds. If an individual member wants to transfer to a different base, we will need to decide whether the individual, the base they are leaving, or the base they are joining, will have responsibility for covering the cost of travel. Generally speaking, I would assume that it would be the responsibility of the base they wish to join.
We have a good reputation of always being prompt with our payments. Please do not damage that reputation by letting us down in that area. We would hate to have to dissociate ourselves from the [b:6f8edb2208]business[/b:6f8edb2208] dealings of a sister community.[/i:6f8edb2208]

(SOURCE: [cust.idl.net.au])


Kidney Donations
In the past two years much has been made by the media of the fact that quite a few Jesus Christians have voluntarily donated a kidney for transplant to someone suffering from kidney disease. Obviously there is nothing in the teachings of Jesus which says, "Thou shalt donate a kidney." And to be sure, the Jesus Christians do not have a formal body of teaching about kidney donations. It is just something that some of them have done. However, kidney donations, when done voluntarily, without remuneration, and for the purpose of saving another person's life, are undeniably consistent with all that Jesus taught (and the Jesus Christians teach) about love.
The Bible says (I John 3:17-18):
"Whosoever has this world's goods and sees his brother have need, and closes up his bowels of compassion against him, how does the love of God dwell in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth."

[b:6f8edb2208]Sounds like Dave has left the decision up to his followers with NO coercive teaching from him doesn’t it. Below is what he says when he is not trying to pull the wool over a High Court.[/b:6f8edb2208]

[i:6f8edb2208]The Apostle Paul, when writing to the Romans, urged them to present their bodies as [b:6f8edb2208]"living sacrifices"[/b:6f8edb2208], which he added was nothing more than their [b:6f8edb2208]"reasonable service"[/b:6f8edb2208] to God and others. John the Baptist, when speaking to the crowds who came to him to be baptised, [b:6f8edb2208]urged them to give proof of their repentance[/b:6f8edb2208], and he suggested that one proof would be for those who had two to give to those who had none. Jesus commanded his followers to take up their cross and follow his example of sacrificial love. [b:6f8edb2208]In the light of these instructions[/b:6f8edb2208], we feel that it is only reasonable that we do what we can to save another person's life, [b:6f8edb2208]by giving one of the two kidneys that we now have to someone else[/b:6f8edb2208]. The donor's remaining kidney will, over time, enlarge until it is able to do the work of two kidneys.[/i:6f8edb2208]

(SOURCE: [www.jesuschristians.net])

[b:6f8edb2208]At the time of writing this expose of David McKay’s lies and hypocrisy 14 out of 26 members have already given up a kidney under obedience to his twisted interpretations of Jesus teachings.[/b:6f8edb2208]

Once again, we have a practice which has been followed by individual members of almost all Christian denominations, and which is hardly outlawed by any of them, but which has been unfairly condemned when practiced by members of the Jesus Christians, purely and simply on the grounds that so many of us have done it. We have been called a "kidney cult" in an effort to imply that something sinister is taking place, and yet nothing untoward has been turned up by any of the psychologists, doctors, and other professionals who have examined and quizzed each one of us before allowing us to donate.

[b:6f8edb2208]“Nothing untoward” has been turned up? Really? The below web addresses all speak of this cult lying to Australian health authorities and the resulting decision by those authorities to amend the law to ensure that a full psychological assessment takes place in future. [/b:6f8edb2208]

[www.smh.com.au]
[www.theage.com.au]
[www.abc.net.au]

[b:6f8edb2208]The cult travels the globe hospital shopping because they are aware that they can no longer donate in Australia due to the ethical concerns regarding coercion involved.
When questioned by the various individual hospital ethics boards regarding their motivations they are not forthcoming or honest that they are doing it from some sense of obedience to these teachings, instead opting to deceive hospital ethics boards about "long term" friendships with potential recipients. This deception occurs because they are aware that such teachings would be categorized as undue peer pressure.[/b:6f8edb2208]

Sex
A final area of controversy relates to our attitude toward sex. To be fair, it probably relates more to the attitude of our critics toward sex, for there is rarely ever any reference to what we actually teach when someone begins to claim or imply that we teach or practice sexual immorality. At best they imply guilt by association or by spurious hearsay. Fred Njoroge, for example, wrote an email to his daughter, Betty, in which he said that our community practices prostitution. I understand that he claimed his information came from the Internet.
Our experience is that there are a lot of things written on the Internet which are not true. However, we have never been accused of this before, to our knowledge. So I asked Betty to push Fred for information regarding the source of his claims. Despite several attempts, Betty was not able to get a reply. So I can only assume that the claim was a total fabrication, like so much of the information that has been leaked to the Kenyan media over the last two months.
In fact, the Jesus Christian teachings about sex are, once again, probably more strict than those of the average church. We do not believe in homosexual practice, and we do not believe in sex outside of marriage. We do not believe in remarriage after divorce. We do not believe that couples (even engaged couples) should indulge in any sort of physical expressions of romantic love (kissing, fondling, or even holding hands) until after they have been married. All of this can be verified through articles which appear on our website.
Obviously in the light of this, allegations that we believe in or practice prostitution constitute the worst possible slander.

[b:6f8edb2208]David omitted that they don’t actually believe in marriage as an institution at all, and that he teaches husbands to “forsake” their wives and to “hate” them in preference for the God of his understanding.[/b:6f8edb2208]

[i:6f8edb2208]“So I am now starting to believe that the army of 144,000 may in fact be literally virgins, who have kept themselves from women. Paul says to the Corinthians, "The time remains that those who have wives should be as though they had none." In other words, there may be an option for those of us who are married to still make it into the army, but the only way we could do it would be by very seriously and perhaps very literally forsaking our wives. The Catholic Church has something along those lines, where a married man can become a priest by literally leaving his wife. The system in general is shocked by it, but the Catholics still do it. And I think that is just a small sample of what God is wanting us to do. What Paul said is echoed by Jesus when he says that no man can come after him unless he is willing to "hate" his wife.
I have, for too long, been afraid of people calling us a cult that breaks up marriages. So I have bent over backwards to accommodate rebellious wives. Some members have clenched their fists every time I even hinted at husbands forsaking their wives for God. I thank God that we are finally free of that rebellious spirit, and I pray that we will never tolerate it again.
I like this fresh new, radical approach that we have taken, that does not require us to justify ourselves to any of our friends, ex-members, relatives, or other system "authorities". All of these people unanimously "despise authority"... ours, God's, or anyone's except their own.[/i:6f8edb2208]

(SOURCE: [www.jesuschristians.net])

[i:6f8edb2208]I should address some problems relating to the 144K vision. I am particularly concerned that people may think we need to tolerate other points of view within our own fellowship which do not support the 144K vision; or that celibacy is not necessarily the preferred option, and the ideal toward which we should all be aiming.
If people start thinking this way, then it is quite likely that such people would only stay with the community until such time as they are able to find a wife anyway, and then they would leave... not because we would kick them out, but because they simply would not feel comfortable within the community, even though it may be more comfortable for them to stick around at the moment.
We have seen it happen too many times in the past to think otherwise. Just take a careful look through the ranks of all those couples who have left us and tell me how many husbands are really wearing the pants in those families. You cannot be free to follow the Lamb withersoever he goes if you are busy trying to follow your wife withersoever she goes. As soon as such men have the power that comes with having a "disciple" of their own (i.e. a wife), they shoot through. The only couples who have stayed on in our fellowship are ones who are not baulking at the 144K vision even though it puts us married people down as being second-class Christians.
We should be clear about what the standard is, and also be clear about our opposition to anyone teaching otherwise, whether publicly or privately. Celibacy is the ideal.[/i:6f8edb2208]

[b:6f8edb2208][David seems to have forgotten that 1 Timothy - Chapter 4 says forbidding marriage is a “devils doctrine” taught by “seducing spirits”, and by those who have “departed from the faith” Author.][/b:6f8edb2208]

[i:6f8edb2208]Marriage is an option; but it is an inferior option. If anyone doesn't like it, they can leave now. I am serious about this. I am prepared to go right down to the last two people remaining in the community with this issue in order to keep only those people around who are 100% red-hot sold out warriors for God. My goodness, we have taught from our earliest days that we must "forsake all", right down to the point of laying down our lives for Christ and for each other; and yet every time it starts to get even close to costing us something far less than this, people seem to think that we have gone off some deep end and they panic or leave.
We have made allowances for married couples to stay on in the community; but the success rate is very low. And the reason is the Jezebel spirit. The wives are not evil in themselves, nor are the children. But the Jezebel spirit uses them both to tear us away from being totally sold out to God. God is a jealous God, and he will not have that.[/i:6f8edb2208]

(SOURCE: [www.jesuschristians.net])

[b:6f8edb2208]David also omitted to tell the Kenyan High Court that a weekly report was required from members regarding their commitment to celibacy.[/b:6f8edb2208]

[i:6f8edb2208]We have, in the past, asked people to make a weekly assessment of how committed they are to the principles that Jesus taught with regard to our sex life. It is probably the easiest report to make, as it can be done in an instant, without any complicated record keeping. However, under the new arrangement, this report may not be as important as regular sharing between members of a team with regard to their thoughts on such subjects as chastity and remaining single for God.[/i:6f8edb2208]

(SOURCE: [cust.idl.net.au])

Quakers
There are other teachings of Jesus (e.g. praying secretly, keeping alms secret, not using titles of "respect") which we also follow, and many of them are similar to the teachings of early Quakers.
My wife and I have been members of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) for the past six years. We first came to Kenya at the invitation of a District Superintendent of the Central Yearly Meeting of Friends in Western District, and I will personally be speaking at Friends meetings in that District for six weeks in October and November of this year. I will also be distributing a booklet, entitled "Radical Christian Teachings" which outlines basic Quaker "testimonies". I personally wrote and published the booklet as part of my effort to encourage greater Christian commitment amongst Kenyans. If a copy can be added to this statement, it should give further evidence of the sound, bible-based nature of Jesus Christian teachings.

[b:6f8edb2208]David is using the Quaker mask to sound respectable to the Kenyan High Court, but this is what he really says to his followers behind the scenes.[/b:6f8edb2208]

[i:6f8edb2208]“So what I am suggesting now is that we must at least be willing to cut our ties with all of these vestiges of respectability that each of our system and family friendships represents, and to spiritually disappear, if need be, into the great unknown in the way of all so-called "cults".”[/i:6f8edb2208]

[b:6f8edb2208]He also omitted to inform the High Court that he sees it as being an organization that “despises” his and God’s authority.[Author][/b:6f8edb2208]

[i:6f8edb2208]"I like this fresh new, radical approach that we have taken, that does not require us to justify ourselves to any of our friends, ex-members, relatives, or other system "authorities". All of these people unanimously "despise authority"... ours, God's, or anyone's except their own."[/i:6f8edb2208]

(SOURCE: [www.jesuschristians.net])

[b:6f8edb2208]The “great unknown” he speaks of is really not that much of a mystery. It is simply living a life of hypocrisy and double standards. His romanticizing of groups called cults show that he has lost touch with reality. Time for those in the group to leave.[/b:6f8edb2208]

Great work, Apostate!

Ever thought how the JC's would rule the world, which after all is their belief and aim? The believe that after the Tribulation, they will all ride flying horses and smite and slaughter millions of people with Jesus. Then they will rule over the survivors from their magical city that comes down from space.

Let's pretend for a moment that their dream/nightmare came true.

You can imagine that they would have secret police monitoring every action and thought of their subjects. People would probably have to submit regular reports on their thoughts and sins. Punishment would, of course, be with the whip, although after getting a taste for blood punishment may extend further in the name of righteousness.

There would be no democracy, the elite would rule. Everyone would be told what work to do and they would have to do it for love, or else. Private property would be outlawed. Davids rantings would be transmitted to every household. Children would report on parents who refused to be re-educated.

What do other people think a JC ruled world would be like?

My impression of a Jesus Christian ruled world would be that it would be similar to the "Killing fields" of Cambodia. Children taken away from their parents and taught by the newly formed JC world government to betray their parents if they were disloyal in thought, speech or deed to Jesus Christain dictates. Those interested in love and forgiveness would have to go into hiding

Well the JC's do expect to rule the world. They intend to divide it up and rule over different sections.

Dave may be expecting this to happen in the same time frame as the Family who expect a major event next year. The Family deny this publicly.
They also denied their predictions about 1993 and about the fall of America.

Well they will carry shovels to bury us with after they kill us at the tribulation! It is quite amazing that they call us Dave Haters when Dave is the one who preaches this hate against non members, to the extent that he describes how they will finish us off and bury us.



Yes, I think you were right Cultmalleus, the safest thing is to rejoin and sabotage their efforts.

.....speaking about playing a role in the end-times.....

I've thought for some time David has the "personality" to make a quite reasonable Anti-Christ....the "skills" in deceit, naked greed for power and ruthlessness....it all seems to be there....

(The official denials about dabbling in "wordly empires" would all be conveniently forgotten, of course, if need be....)

I would have thought that the ultimate "baddie" would have had a little more "pizzazz" than what we have seen to date......but maybe David has that in him yet....just needs a liitle more opportunity to "coax" it out of him...

(In any event , at least we have now learned what to expect from the real "McCoy" if David only ultimately manages to be an "almost-ran"....