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rrmoderator
These are attacks that don't deal with Dave McKay's bad behavior, but rather attempt to discredit his critics personally.

The link you offered about ad hominem attacks states:

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An Abusive Ad Hominem occurs when an attack on the character or other irrelevant personal qualities of the opposition

Calling McKay's critics "foolish," "hateful" and then claiming that they "hide behind a computer screen" seems to fit within an "attack on the character...personal qualities of the opposition."

I am a little confused, and perhaps I have missed something here. What is the actual purpose that this thread exists for? Is it for people to support each other after coming out of cults? Is it to expose bad practices amongst the Jesus Christians, and encourage them to change? Or is it to 'debate' something (perhaps whether or not there is anything wrong with the Jesus Christians.)

This is an honest question, and I am particularly interested in what is meant by 'dealing' with Dave McKay's bad behaviour. Do you mean encouraging him to change it, or do you merely mean dicussing and analysing it?

ashwhyn:

People posting here wish to discuss the group and its effects, this includes affected families and former members.

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ashwyn

I am a little confused, and perhaps I have missed something here. What is the actual purpose that this thread exists for? Is it for people to support each other after coming out of cults? Is it to expose bad practices amongst the Jesus Christians, and encourage them to change? Or is it to 'debate' something (perhaps whether or not there is anything wrong with the Jesus Christians.)

This is an honest question, and I am particularly interested in what is meant by 'dealing' with Dave McKay's bad behaviour. Do you mean encouraging him to change it, or do you merely mean dicussing and analysing it?

Hello Ashwyn, I hope this response helps you out of your confusion. This thread seems to be a place where, for the time being, ex members are able to express themselves for the purposes of support, to expose unethical and deceitful practices in the Jesus Christian cult while encouraging current JC's, like yourself, to question such practices.

Regarding your question of [i:4332c2e9d8]"what is meant by 'dealing' with Dave McKay's bad behaviour"[/i:4332c2e9d8] It does not mean using violence like the Jesus Christians engage in to deal with what they deem "bad" behavior, i.e. we will not ask Dave to come and subject himself to a public whipping where we act as judges in a secret location. I can understand why you may think that as it is so easy to project one's own behavior onto others. But from what I am able to ascertain from my time on this thread, ex members are not violent people, nor do we use Jesus teachings to justify violence like the cult you are a member of is wont to do. So knowing this of us, [i:4332c2e9d8]" 'dealing' with Dave McKay's bad behaviour"[/i:4332c2e9d8] is more likely to mean discussing and analysing it openly... something that seems to have Dave openly slandering any who dare to do so.

Also, Ashwyn, I was encouraged to hear that you were unable to give a kidney and that the hospital ethics board changed their decision based on the discussion on the living donors online forum where the ethics of group kidney donations was discussed. You may not agree with this Ashwyn, but you are subjected to cult like peer pressure where you now have no difficulty accepting, condoning, or practicing unethical behaviour that you would have previously rejected based on your own Christian beliefs. Now, from what I understand, you will justify whipping "sinners", as the case with the Kenyan volunteer clearly showed, or you will draw some cosmic significance from offering up your own body to the judgement whip of some unaccountable kangaroo court.

It seems to me this whole thread is ad hominem attacks against Dave McKay. Given that, in fairness, it should not be a surprise when ad hominem attacks surface against the critics.

Moderator, saying it is important for you to win is not a personal attack. I am assuming that is what you are talking about. Given that you are an expert witness regarding cults, I would expect that statement to be more than true for you.

Do you have the same problem for those who questioned my faith, insinuated that I was a pothead (not since college days, thank you), etc.? Or, does your "attack monitor" only register when those who support your cause are supposedly attacked?

Thankfully, there is someone who actually had something to say without all the bitterness exhibited here. Cultmalleus, your response is appreciated. You stated what you wanted to say without being overly dramatic and effectively challanged me.

To answer, I do not know why there are more ex-members than members. I do know that there is no way that I could live the life the Jesus Christians live. I am much too attached to my worldly possesions to give my ALL for Jesus. My guess is that if I joined the Jesus Christians, I would last only a short time in the group. My longing for material things is not where it should be and it certainly does not line up with what Jesus taught in the beatitudes.

You asked if I think that those who leave the group with suffer eternal hell. I have never read that in any of Dave's writings, but the answer I would give is an unqualified NO. I believe when Jesus died, he died for the sin of the whole world and, eventually, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that he is Lord. The understanding I have is that grace is unlimited and that, in the end, God will be All in All.

Of course I am against any sort of violence. Any hitting back, hurting another, etc. is against what Jesus taught. And, no, I don't agree with the recent lashings that occured in the JC community. Neither do I agree with the Friend in Seoul who states that he would kill North Koreans. That doesn't mean that at some point he will be lead to feel otherwise. I just have to trust that the Spirit will lead him to be closer to the likeness of Jesus just as I trust the Spirit will lead me as well.

However, the message that Dave and the Jesus Christians proclaim of giving your all to God is a message that resonates strongly with me. Does he make mistakes? Does the JC Community make mistakes? Of course! To blindly follow any man (or woman) is wrong. It is in listening to the Still Small Voice that we come to Truth. We are ALL a work in progress.

Anyway, thanks for what you write. You are correct, I have not walked in your shoes. I can only speak from my experience and forget that sometimes.

God's Peace cultmaleus,
Craig

Quakerboy:

Going over Dave McKay's bad behavior and how his undue influence has hurt many people is not an ad hominem attack, it is a primary focus of this thread.

You seem to cofuse speaking out about abuse with "bitterness."

This is a common response made by those who refuse to acknowledge the abuse within destructive groups and prefer to essentially place the blame on the victims instead.

You say that Dave McKay and his followers have made "mistakes."

What specific mistakes are you referring to?

Have you been a Quaker all your life?

Are your parents and family also Quakers?

I promised myself I would not post anymore. But I've got to wonder what my time in Quakerism and my family background has to do with anything being discussed here. I can assure you that I am a member in good standing of a Quaker Monthly Meeting and Yearly Meeting. I am on several committees in Quaker circles and am fairly well known among Conservative Friends.

If you knew my last name, you would not have to question my connection to Quakerism...lol!

Mistakes are made by us all, moderator. Wouldn't you say you make mistakes from time to time...even fairly large mistakes. I cannot speak to Dave's mistakes or anyone else's for that matter. What I can speak to is my mistakes.

I am not always kind or compassionate. I am oft given to a quick temper. I am materialistic...more than I want to be (I understand Paul when he says, "that which I do not want to do, I do"). I do not always act out of love. BUT, the Spirit is moving in my life as I trust the Spirit is moving in any person's life that will listen to God's Spirit.

The motivation of the Religious Society of Friends is to see people transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit, not to destroy them. Even the worst cult leader is not beyond redeemption...thank God for neither am I.

How many of you actually pray for Dave and for the JC community? How many of you can admit that YOU make mistakes and sometimes cause hurt (dodging flames now :) )?

My heart goes out to each of you whether or not you agree with the Jesus Christians or not. We are all broken and need fixing. The important thing is that we give our lives over to God and attempt to follow where He leads. Perhaps some day I might count myself in that number.

Until then, I remain,
Craig

Quakerboy:

Interesting that you have failed to specifically identify any mistakes Dave McKay or his followers have made and yet you have no problem making specific critical comments about people posting at this board.

The questions regarding your Quaker background were meant to establish whether you are a lifetime member of that faith group and long established or a convert, relgiious drifter from another background.

You didn't really answer the question, but OK you claim to be well-known to some Conservative Friends.

Have you bought books from the Jesus Christians and/or donated money, help to them in any way?

Have you encouraged other Quakers to do so?

Moderator, please reread one of my posts. I clearly stated an area where I disagree with Dave. But, like I say, the Spirit still speaks and either Dave or myself is wrong on the issue. God's time will tell who is right.

As to the question whether I have supported the Jesus Christians through donations. There is a very clear answer to that in the Bible. Jesus says not to parade our good deeds before men. So, whether I have given or not is between me and my Lord.

As to encouraging other Quakers to purchase books...no, didn't have to. Many of our Young Friends met and befriended some Jesus Christians at a recent Gathering and brought home some of their literature. Those f/Friends who are interested in the issues the Jesus Christian's raise in thier literature, I give them copies. No need to purchase...."freely you have rec'd...freely give."

-C

Quakerboy:

I am sorry that you and other Quakers that you know have apparently been taken in by Dave McKay.

McKay can reportedly be quite persuasive and charming, which is how he essentially makes his living, i.e. he preys on others.

Cult leaders can often be charming.

Typically, it is only when you consistently criticize and refuse to go along with and/or somehow support them, that the mask drops away and you see the "wolf" beneath.

You should realize that by supporting McKay in any way you are enabling him to hurt others.

Very sad how well-meaning people like you can be manipulated by McKay in this way.

We'll just have to disagree on this, I suppose.

However, there are still two of my questions that you did not address:

"Do you have the same problem for those who questioned my faith, insinuated that I was a pothead (not since college days, thank you), etc.? Or, does your "attack monitor" only register when those who support your cause are supposedly attacked?"

and


"How many of you actually pray for Dave and for the JC community? How many of you can admit that YOU make mistakes and sometimes cause hurt ?"

I would be most interested in the answers.

Peace,
Craig