Thanks for sharing that information Miseeoin. I hope things Have resolved satisfactorily now.

Here is an interesting quote from the JC FAQ's page:

[i:4115344fef]7. Like Catholics, we teach the spiritual advantages of remaining single; but like Protestants, we do not forbid marriage for church [b:4115344fef]leaders[/b:4115344fef]. (See The Virgin Army, parts 1, 2, and 3.)[/i:4115344fef]

Note it says LEADERS. I was curious how Dave got around it, being married as he is. The followers are taught by Dave to not marry.

Quoting Sandi: (Ash's potential recipient)

[i:f9bbf94b01]"The Hospital's agenda for this first ever international internet transplant seemed to be a low key simple no fuss processs, The Jesus Christians/ABC's agenda for this first ever international transplant was to have a media event celebrating live donor donation. I was sandwiched between these two opposing forces when all I wanted was a kidney to give me life. The Jesus Christians and ABC still got their media attention. The Hospital manoeuvred its way out of what they perceived as an awkard situation that could blemish their reputation.

Let us just say that their operations were a success but the patient may die."[/i:f9bbf94b01]

The Jesus Christian hunger for media attention has done it yet again. Of course this will be everybody's fault except their own.

Dave McKay
Member since 14-Aug-05
230 posts 03-Jun-07, 04:49 PM (EDT)

2. "RE: From Intended Recipient of J.C. Kidney at Toro"
In response to message #1


Extract from Dave's latest post at LDO
When someone makes a genuine offer, they DO want someone to "take advantage of" it. I assume you are talking about someone unworthily receiving a kidney, and yet I see little difference. I don't think that ANYONE should think they "deserve" my kidney or anyone else's and I try to stress something along those lines with everyone who has received a kidney from someone in our community. I tell them that they need to understand from the start that the donor has the right, right up to the last minute, to back out. To be honest, I quite EXPECT the recipients to be very thankful for the kidneys they receive, and I think that for the most part they are (and some have been extremely thankful, even years later, almost to the point of being embarrassing!)

But it's important that we don't expect recipients to be saints. We did not meet them because they were looking for someone to GIVE to. A lot of people won't give, and we know that. But most people will TAKE when they are in genuine need, and these people are in genuine need. And I would feel bad if they would NOT take.

Now, we have a situation at the moment which is really unique in our experience of donating. Ash waited for almost twelve weeks over there in Canada, trying to donate to Sandi. It was far more than he had agreed to, but he badly wanted to see the operation succeed. During that time he was able to form a very deep friendship with Sandi. I was there for two months and I felt that Sandi and her partner had become close friends to me too.

But when it finally failed (and this is the ONLY time that this has happened in about 20 donations from members of our community), Sandi was deeply hurt. She expressed the anger that we felt with the hospital. She also expressed the anger that we felt with Craig and Kate for their efforts to get it stopped. But what surprised us (at first) was that she also expressed anger at us Jesus Christians. We got what we wanted (publicity), she says, but she got nothing.

We had been over the matter of media coverage with her from the start, and we were especially thankful that she herself has had some experience in speaking to the media in Canada in support of more live organ donors. But when it all came crashing down, she was understandably angry. It is just a shame that she hit out at those of us who were MOST trying to help her.

Did Sandi "use" us? Of course she did (even though her efforts failed in the end! But that is what we had asked her to do. Maybe one day she will thank us for trying, but she doesn't have to do that either.

After for some reason I clicked on the Kidney Donation Story yesterday when I went to see what these Jesus Christians are about I sent to a site called welikejesus we stuck me as odd.
When I read what he wrote, publically stating in writing I was so astounded.
Please go to the site to have a look
My friend tried to get in but she said she couldnt post.
[welikejesus.com]

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:39 pm Post subject: Toronto General Hospital's decision
This is kind of jumping the gun on the ABC documentary to be aired on Monday night's "Australian Story" (when the general public will be able to hear the story of Ash's battle to help Sandi get a kidney, and Craig, Nick, and Kate's efforts to stop it).

After nearly three months hanging around in a hotel in Toronto, Ash was finally told by Toronto General Hospital today that they are not going to bother taking his kidney and giving it to Sandi after all, despite the fact that he passed every possible test with flying colours, including two psychological examinations.

Their reason was surprisingly honest.

They said, for starters, that Craig and Kate's claims that Ash was under undue influence were total rubbish. The psychiatrist did not support those false claims. We thank God for that. (It is our suspicion that they actually encouraged the psychiatrist to back up Craig and Kate's claims, because it would have given them the excuse they needed to back out of doing the operation gracefully and to blame the Jesus Christians for their decision.) The psychiatrist gave permission for his report to be released to Ash, but the hospital is still dragging its heels about doing that, even though they admit that they already have it in their hands. It's as simple as feeding it through a photocopy machine to give Ash a copy, and they are simply not doing it.

So why did Toronto General Hospital refuse to perform an operation that they admit is badly needed, and that they admit Ash is fully qualified to assist with? They said that they have done it because they are scared of adverse publicity! Seriously. They are afraid of Kate and Nick (Ash's mother and stepfather) going to the media and saying that they don't think their grown son should be allowed to make such a decision because they do not respect his rights as an adult. The hospital is obviously of the opinion that the law means nothing when abusive parents decide to play the heartbroken mother card... and sadly, we have found that to be true. Mothers can literally kill people on such grounds and get away with it!
We are hopeful that the general public will see that it is not the responsibility of a hospital to pander to abusive parents, but rather to get on with the job of healing people, which is their real purpose for their existence. We are also hopeful that the ABC report will present a more balanced picture of what is happening and that the general public will NOT support what the hospital has done.

The hospital's public relations officer specificaly mentioned the fact that they had been approached by the ABC about filming the operation; but of course, that's what the media has to do to get permission, and they had said from the beginning that it would be okay to film after the go ahead. The ABC agreed not to broadcast until a decision had been made and now that the decision has been made, they will broadcast, and I don't think the hospital is going to look very good trying to blame the ABC for their gutlessness.

The ABC is the one that was going to give them GOOD press if the operation had gone ahead. They had no intention of doing anything harmful to their reputation. But it is obviously the CNN coverage (and Jon Ronson's documentary) that they are frightened of... the gutter press... and the guttersnipes who promote that approach like Nick and Kate.

Well, folks, we can all look forward to seeing what the ABC has to say on Monday night, 8pm.

This man needs to be stopped.
He is trying to use the Guilt of Kidney Donation to get his own ends.
Oh and I thought it was funny when I read Ash's reply on the ABC website under forum Australian Story saying his words
If you want to help people, then help people."

In fact that is the entire point of what I am trying to communicate. Although I guess that you think I was wasting my time working with food not bombs in Canada, when I could have been helping fee... wait a sec.

Oh, you mean that I wasted my time joining the Jesus Chrstians, because we sell everything we have and give the money to the... wait a sec.

Well, at least I could have been trying to make someone's life better instead of just trying to palm my kidney off to someone who would have a better quality of life without it.

Righty-ho, I'll try and take your comments to heart then.

Oh, and I wouldn't really try and help those homeless people. They are quite selfish, and should feel ashamed of themselves taking all that food from young people with such a future in front of them. What if they have children in the future that need food"
Even doubly suspicious since he was so willing to donate his kidney to a woman older than 40 and obviously well to do.
Isnt that whom Jesus helped the poor. He quoted that too but out of context.
Daves teachings are so bad.
If I can help in anyway please contact me.

If you want to help people, then help people."

In fact that is the entire point of what I am trying to communicate. Although I guess that you think I was wasting my time working with food not bombs in Canada, when I could have been helping fee... wait a sec.

Oh, you mean that I wasted my time joining the Jesus Chrstians, because we sell everything we have and give the money to the... wait a sec.

Well, at least I could have been trying to make someone's life better instead of just trying to palm my kidney off to someone who would have a better quality of life without it.

Righty-ho, I'll try and take your comments to heart then.

Oh, and I wouldn't really try and help those homeless people. They are quite selfish, and should feel ashamed of themselves taking all that food from young people with such a future in front of them. What if they have children in the future that need food

eaglegirlflies:

So what is your history with "Jesus Christians"?

Don't you think that the way Dave McKay encourages his followers to treat their families is wrong?

Isn't it reasonable that Ash's parents were concerned about him donating a kidney?

It seems that quite a few of McKay's followers have done this under his influence. And don't the hospital's actions speak louder than words, i.e. they blocked the kidney transplant.

See [www.news.com.au]

More bad press for Dave McKay.

[b:b1161108e4]Aussie brainwashed by kidney cult, says mum[/b:b1161108e4]

[b:b1161108e4]AAP Australia/June 04, 2007 06:18am[/b:b1161108e4]

A SYDNEY member of a controversial religious group plans to donate a kidney to a Canadian woman he barely knows, as a way of expressing his faith in God.
But Ash Falkingham's plan has hit a legal roadblock, with the Toronto hospital scheduled to perform the operation questioning if he has been coerced by the Jesus Christians, a group dubbed "the kidney cult".

Nineteen of the group's 30 members in Kenya, Britain, United States and Australia have donated a kidney as part of their desire to "live selflessly", ABC Television's Australian Story reports tonight.

Mr Falkingham, 22, believes the group, led by guru David Mckay, is simply following the true teachings of Christ.

"The Jesus Christians believe that what Jesus said, he meant," Mr Falkingham said.

"I decided to do it (donate a kidney) because I like positive things that can be done to help people.

"And I also saw that they (other members) weren't really affected by the operation."

Mr Mckay decided kidney donation was the "ultimate" expression of faith after seeing the film A Gift of Love, the true story of a boy who donates a kidney to his grandmother.

Mr Falkingham joined the group three years ago, and since then his mother and stepfather have been trying to rescue him.

His mother, Kate Croft, said donating an organ to a complete stranger was "shocking".

"I was living in a world of aghastness," Ms Croft said of discovering her son's plan.

"I would say it (Jesus Christians) is a cult.

"I would say it's a sect.

"I would say it's madness."

Ms Croft said Mr Mckay had "brainwashed" her son.

When Mr Falkingham first joined the group contact with his family was limited to email.

"It seems like it's part of Mckay's practice to make the new recruits cut off their ties with their friends and family," Mr Falkingham's stepfather, Nick Croft, said.

Mr Croft also accuses the Jesus Christians of draining his step-son's bank account - although Mr McKay says every member willing puts their money into a "common fund".

Mr Falkingham has to travel to Canada for the operation because "non-directed" kidney donations are banned in Australia.

He said under Australian law he would be required to have a long-term friendship with a recipient before donating.

He barely knows the Canadian recipient, Sandy, who he met online through the website Living Donors.

The operation was scheduled for April 30, but was delayed after the Crofts got in touch with the provincial health authority in Ontario.

"I pointed out that later on, Ash might feel that they were responsible for not picking up that he was being coerced into this," Mr Croft said.

Toronto General Hospital has now appointed a psychiatrist to determine whether Mr Falkingham is capable of giving informed consent, and whether he is under "undue influence".

"Hopefully it's not the end of the whole thing," Mr Falkingham said.

"People might see me as ... young and naive and idealistic ... (but) I see it as a small thing.

"There are six billion people on the planet and helping one, I think it's just human nature."

After more than 10 weeks in Canada, Mr Falkingham is still waiting to hear whether the transplant will be approved.

Hii All
I have no history with the Jesus Christians at all really. I got onto his site two days ago, read him publically post lies about Kate and Nick.
I was so outraged I watched the show and my heart was broke for Nick and Kate.
The Statements that he has made since about all things are wrong. I dont know I can sort of see through it.
I came to this site to find Kate and Nice to let her know I am here as another (his quote) insane Parent.
Anything I can do for any of you via the internet plz let me know.
I dislike anyone preying upon the weak, vunerable and poor.

Dear Eaglegirl,

The expression of your concern here is (I would imagine!) of some comfort to Nick and Kate in itself....

I am one of the "original" members of the JesusChristians ('80 - '85) and can verify that the pattern of behaviour you have witnessed recently has a l-o-n-g antecedent...

He misrepresents himself and the facts capriciously (first isolating Kate and Nick or Sheila or whichever parent you like) and then lying "to suit" the occasion...

So I think if you could just stay in touch with the postings here and alert us of whatever "fallacy" you come across you could at the very least expand the number of "eyes' and "ears" we have out there....(and others who post regularly mere may have other suggestions too....)

In many ways I personally still adhere to what I consider to be the original "ideals" behind the JesusChristians (the anti-materialism for example) but David has become so self-conceited over the years that the disempowerement of individuals within and without the JesusChristians to his own political advantage has now become the practical "expression" of those ideals (still of course honoured with lip-service though).....I find him quite sinister these days myself.....

Dave McKay doesn't seem to have much concern or compassion for parents generally.

McKay's own family has apparently suffered because of his limited ability to feel genuine empathy or even sympathy for others.